How bad would it be if Europe had surrendered to the Nazis?

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Postby james_S » 2014.06.09 (23:22)

Because it could be argued that the Nazi beliefs would quickly dissipate as the people they invaded (even if persuaded through propaganda etc) wouldn't be very passionate about those beliefs and then things might gradually get back to normal e.g banks, accountants, cafés (except it would just be different people in the top jobs).
However things like the Nazi book burning might change things permanently. About the specific hate crimes, it may be that no one will be able to stop them or on the other hand if England (uk) for example agreed to surrender like France did but only on condition that hate crimes especially killing would stop, then Nazi Germany might agree to that deal.

I'm just astounded that in the more aware and connected world of recent history, anyone wanted an ''empire'' again
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Postby macrohenry » 2014.06.10 (14:05)

I don't like the expression "Nazi Germany". It sounds as though all Germans were racist, murderers, ... which is definitely not the case. Only a very small percentage of people originally had this ideology and others were afraid, so they obeyed.
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Postby 乳头的早餐谷物 » 2014.06.10 (16:12)

macrohenry wrote:I don't like the expression "Nazi Germany". It sounds as though all Germans were racist, murderers, ... which is definitely not the case. Only a very small percentage of people originally had this ideology and others were afraid, so they obeyed.
Really? I think the expression does the opposite by specifying the regime rather than just attributing the crimes to "Germany", which would be the alternative--since in many many cases it wouldn't be accurate to just refer to "the Nazis" or to the party when you're discussing the actions of the German state itself. Most countries don't get this special treatment when discussing their war histories, e.g. when talking about Japan in the war it's usually just "Japan" or "the Japanese". I definitely think it lessens the association of the German people with the crimes of the Nazi Party rather than the other way around.

Also, while it's a different debate and it's one I'm not prepared for, I think your explanation is rather an oversimplification of the complicity of the German people in the Nazi regime.
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Postby james_S » 2014.06.10 (21:02)

I actually had admiral Nelson against the French in mind (for various reasons) when I thought of this, the Nazi thing was just an easier example.

I guess my point is that people as a mass can be stupid and followers (i dont mean to be insulting) but not to such an extent that they wont return to what 'makes sense' especially when in a stable environment (post conflict). And so it shouldn't really matter who your 'rulers' are unless they don't let you breathe -considering the massive bloodshed that could be avoided. But on the other hand too much can be permanently ruined and why let people you hate win the fight etc etc.

And I just want to write this boring list of reasons to try to show that other people could've done the same thing if in the same position just as easily as the Germans:
-influenced by agony caused by economic woes imposed on them
-about the killing jewish people, I think 'opportunity' was a very big factor as opposed to 'motivation' and 'justification', simply because of the small manageable number of jews compared to numbers of other races/groups. Nazis were not the only ones who wanted to get rid of a group of people
-success and needing to stay in success (e.g only caring about your hierarchy)
-rulers not supressing people like they do in other countries, (the German rulers were made to be small through sanctions unlike the British ruling class for example)
-atheism -making people want to believe in something
-as for the actual act of invading other countries, well it wasn't an 'out of the blue' thought, many main countries still had colonies around the world, so why not snap up a colony owner.
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Postby ska » 2014.11.13 (08:26)

macrohenry wrote:I don't like the expression "Nazi Germany". It sounds as though all Germans were racist, murderers, ... which is definitely not the case. Only a very small percentage of people originally had this ideology and others were afraid, so they obeyed.
I do genuinely feel for macrohenry, xaelar, and indeed all Germans who collectively bear the crimes of their descendants; even those that only participated out of coercion. If someone put a gun to my head and said: "kill this person, or I will kill you!" I'm sorry to say that I would probably do it out of fear. I have a great deal of respect for the Germans that were brave enough to stand up to what essentially boiled down to a small group of extremists which manipulated the system, spread malicious anti-Semitic propaganda and attempted to crudely implement a depraved form of eugenics to mold their so-called "master race". Imagine if everyone held the same grudge about Columbus for America, or England for forming Australia and decimating the indigenous population.

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Postby 乳头的早餐谷物 » 2014.11.13 (18:09)

Very, very interesting document regarding all of that:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Opposition

My Opposition (German: Mein Widerstand) is a diary secretly written by the German social democrat Friedrich Kellner (1885–1970) during World War II to describe life under Nazi Germany and to expose the propaganda and the crimes of the Nazi dictatorship.
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