Should states be allowed to 'sucede'

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Postby scythe » 2009.09.23 (03:12)

The only secession movement around that seems anything close to serious is Vermont's. Not like we need them anyway.
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Postby SlappyMcGee » 2009.09.23 (11:05)

scythe33 wrote:The only secession movement around that seems anything close to serious is Vermont's. Not like we need them anyway.
And Quebec from Canada, although nobody cares.
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Postby otters~1 » 2009.09.23 (16:14)

SlappyMcGee wrote:
scythe33 wrote:The only secession movement around that seems anything close to serious is Vermont's. Not like we need them anyway.
And Quebec from Canada, although nobody cares.
On an unrelated note, Slappy, are you from Quebec? In other words, might I call you 'Quebecois'? Best name ever.
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Postby SlappyMcGee » 2009.09.23 (16:46)

flagmyidol wrote:
SlappyMcGee wrote:
scythe33 wrote:The only secession movement around that seems anything close to serious is Vermont's. Not like we need them anyway.
And Quebec from Canada, although nobody cares.
On an unrelated note, Slappy, are you from Quebec? In other words, might I call you 'Quebecois'? Best name ever.
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Postby blue_tetris » 2009.09.24 (02:41)

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Postby Aldaric » 2009.10.02 (22:12)

Thats like asking. Should we kill people? Obviously yes! Get your head on strait.

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Postby otters » 2009.10.02 (23:07)

Aldaric wrote:Thats like asking. Should we kill people? Obviously yes! Get your head on strait.
*blink*
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Postby Brocerius » 2009.10.03 (19:59)

I believe in unity and all that. All divisions in the world just make the proper division and distribution of labour more difficult.

So no, I believe that mostly people don't knows what's good for them on any more of a 'I should eat sometime in the following hours' sort of scale, and should be controlled by a dubiously collected and arguably elected body of people.
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Postby beethoveN » 2009.10.27 (22:24)

can't texas already do that?
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Postby Flycatcher » 2009.10.28 (00:20)

beethoveN wrote:can't texas already do that?
They, uh.
No.
They did the opposite of sucede.

I think it could be beneficial to the world economy to "mix things up", so to speak. We could go to war over who gets preference in exports.
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Postby Mute Monk » 2009.10.28 (13:56)

As long as there is a strong majority population wanting to secede, they should be allowed to do so. That's kind of why Quebec separatists slightly annoy me: there have been two referendums (admittedly close ones) concerning separation, both showing a slight majority in favour of staying. In my opinion, there should be at least 65 - 70% of the population wanting to secede before it's considered.
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Postby SlappyMcGee » 2009.10.28 (15:03)

Mute Monk wrote:As long as there is a strong majority population wanting to secede, they should be allowed to do so. That's kind of why Quebec separatists slightly annoy me: there have been two referendums (admittedly close ones) concerning separation, both showing a slight majority in favour of staying. In my opinion, there should be at least 65 - 70% of the population wanting to secede before it's considered.
I don't agree with this applied to the Quebec situation at all.

I think that allowing people to secede from your country means, straight up, letting people who don't like you take your resources. We're looking at from a 21st Century upscale liberal perspective, where we can talk and sign away everything, but straight up: If ten thousand Russains moved into Quebec and then voted to make Quebec an extension of Russia, we would be fucking pissed.

It's the exact same situation; if people want a piece of land, they either need to pay for it (which Quebec certainly can't do, for my money, Quebec would need to not only pay for every piece of land that it inhabits but also the materials it exports which should be considered Canadian materials; stuff like our Hydro Electricity.) Not only that, but Quebec is among the provinces that are not at all self-sufficient; we take more money in from the government than we ever give back in federal taxes. But that's a bit of an aside as to how the province couldn't survive on its own; let's look at the other thing Quebec should have to do for it's property. It should have to fight for it. Now, this sounds ridiculous, and is a scenario that won't happen, since most separatists describe their reasoning for wanting to be separate as somewhere between "mild displeasure" to "people don't speak French at the bank. :("

But once again, I don't think the idea of seceding even understands the concept of property. If you own a house, (and you don't, really, because it is your country that owns half.) and a bunch of people start to life in your house with your permission, paying rent, eating food, and then the majority of them decide that you are a douchebag, they don't kick you out of your own house. They go and live in another house.

Now, once again, this doesn't apply to every situation. But to say that Quebecois should be entitled to the province of Quebec if the majority of them want it is fucking stupid. If that Referendum passes, watch the Canadian government say "No." or, "Yes, but we get everything below the Saint-Lawrence." (Which is my understanding, and which is the bulk of the population and industry.) Quebec will bitch and moan, but what are they going to do? Buy back the land? Trade for it? Fight for it? No. The government has no reason to entitle these people to this land; not a moral one, not an economic one, not a practical one.
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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2009.10.28 (20:17)

SlappyMcGee wrote:I don't agree with this applied to the Quebec situation at all.

I think that allowing people to secede from your country means, straight up, letting people who don't like you take your resources. We're looking at from a 21st Century upscale liberal perspective, where we can talk and sign away everything, but straight up: If ten thousand Russains moved into Quebec and then voted to make Quebec an extension of Russia, we would be fucking pissed.

It's the exact same situation; if people want a piece of land, they either need to pay for it (which Quebec certainly can't do, for my money, Quebec would need to not only pay for every piece of land that it inhabits but also the materials it exports which should be considered Canadian materials; stuff like our Hydro Electricity.) Not only that, but Quebec is among the provinces that are not at all self-sufficient; we take more money in from the government than we ever give back in federal taxes. But that's a bit of an aside as to how the province couldn't survive on its own; let's look at the other thing Quebec should have to do for it's property. It should have to fight for it. Now, this sounds ridiculous, and is a scenario that won't happen, since most separatists describe their reasoning for wanting to be separate as somewhere between "mild displeasure" to "people don't speak French at the bank. :("

But once again, I don't think the idea of seceding even understands the concept of property. If you own a house, (and you don't, really, because it is your country that owns half.) and a bunch of people start to life in your house with your permission, paying rent, eating food, and then the majority of them decide that you are a douchebag, they don't kick you out of your own house. They go and live in another house.

Now, once again, this doesn't apply to every situation. But to say that Quebecois should be entitled to the province of Quebec if the majority of them want it is fucking stupid. If that Referendum passes, watch the Canadian government say "No." or, "Yes, but we get everything below the Saint-Lawrence." (Which is my understanding, and which is the bulk of the population and industry.) Quebec will bitch and moan, but what are they going to do? Buy back the land? Trade for it? Fight for it? No. The government has no reason to entitle these people to this land; not a moral one, not an economic one, not a practical one.
Or they could just take a lesson from Israel and construct ever-advancing iron walls that eat away at the country like necrotizing fasciitis, all the while shooting at unarmed civilians to encourage them to step the fuck off their own land.
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Postby Mute Monk » 2009.10.28 (20:33)

Hmmmm...I wasn't saying that Quebec should separate, or that it's a good idea for them to do so; far from it, in fact. My point was that, had the referendum been a couple percentage points the other way, negotiations would have ensued that may have led to secession. In my opinion, 51% is not enough...65 or 70% is a far better number on which to base negotiations of secession.

Also, saying that resources "belong" to any one party, political or otherwise, is ridiculous. Resources don't belong to anybody, and it's that exact attitude that fuels the ongoing rape of Mother Earth.

Your house analogy only works when compared to a dictatorship, where it's "my way or the highway". In a democracy, if there is a majority vote, that is the way things go. If the people I allowed to move into my house held a vote and unanimously decided that I should leave, then I would (presuming that I ran my house like a democracy, which is unlikely).

As I said before, I don't support Quebec secession...I quite enjoy living in the second largest country in the world. I was simply expressing my displeasure at the ease with which Quebec might have approached secession, were the votes slightly tilted the other way.

@ Suki: Good luck finding the money or military resources to do that. Especially when you're not supported by the U.S. Government.
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Postby SlappyMcGee » 2009.10.28 (20:40)

Mute Monk wrote:Hmmmm...I wasn't saying that Quebec should separate, or that it's a good idea for them to do so; far from it, in fact. My point was that, had the referendum been a couple percentage points the other way, negotiations would have ensued that may have led to secession. In my opinion, 51% is not enough...65 or 70% is a far better number on which to base negotiations of secession.

Also, saying that resources "belong" to any one party, political or otherwise, is ridiculous. Resources don't belong to anybody, and it's that exact attitude that fuels the ongoing rape of Mother Earth.

Your house analogy only works when compared to a dictatorship, where it's "my way or the highway". In a democracy, if there is a majority vote, that is the way things go. If the people I allowed to move into my house held a vote and unanimously decided that I should leave, then I would (presuming that I ran my house like a democracy, which is unlikely).

As I said before, I don't support Quebec secession...I quite enjoy living in the second largest country in the world. I was simply expressing my displeasure at the ease with which Quebec might have approached secession, were the votes slightly tilted the other way.

@ Suki: Good luck finding the money or military resources to do that. Especially when you're not supported by the U.S. Government.
I wasn't suggesting that you were advocating secession. I was merely throwing my two cents in on the Quebec side of the issue while pointing out that it is unreasonable.
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Postby Mute Monk » 2009.10.28 (23:40)

Then...I'm glad we agree.
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