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raigan wrote:it's no different than 5 level highscores where you leave the game running in-between attempts..

We thought that we could just omit episode highscores as individual things and simply add the level highscores for those 5 levels to get the "episode" score. However we realized that maybe we were missing something, hence this poll :)

I don't understand why it was never like this. I'm all for it.

Smörgåsbord wrote:
I don't understand why it was never like this. I'm all for it.

Why? Cuz they are different. Anyway,there could be both, i mean, two episode scores per episode, the sum score, and the original score made of 5levels continue playing (the one that is in 1.4), so everybody would be happy.

golfkid wrote:
From my point of view, episode highscores are different than level highscores because it takes a different mindset to do them. As a level highscore, you can finish the level as many times as you want, even if its not the best score (for example, missing a couple gold and finishing just to see how fast you did the route), and not be penalized for it. But in an episode highscore, if you finish a level with a mistake in it, that negatively affects the entire episode run and you don't have a chance to try again without doing the whole episode again. I am always more impressed with a large episode 0th-1st difference than a large level 0th-1st difference because it shows a quality of runs and skills through a variety of level types, and with a variety of techniques needed to get the good scores.

Also, if you change the episode score to being simply the sum of the level scores, there will be much less chance for competition on episode scores, in my opinion. I know that under that system I would have virtually no chance for taking any episode 0ths, while I have 6 or 7 under the current system. I don't think I'd have any of those episode 0ths under a "sum the level scores" system.

EddyMataGallos wrote:Why? Cuz they are different.

Um. Right.

raigan wrote:Just to be clear: we're not going to touch v1.4 stuff, all of those scores/etc will remain. The new version will be a completely separate thing.

So there will be two highscore boards? Could you go in to a little more detail here?

raigan wrote:Basically we would like to understand the importance of ep highscores specifically -- how are they any different than "level highscores, with an absurd endurance element"? I feel like, if you're going to leave N running for several days just to get an ep highscore -- wouldn't it be easier if we allowed "resuming" from where you left off? And if we go that far, it's really no different than just level highscores..

I main thing that about episode highscoring that is different than what you described is knowing your own run. What I mean by that is the fact that you can't go back, once you complete a level other than the first one you cant finish that level and then if you don't like your time restart with out having to redo the previous levels again. Here in lays the challenge. the player must either suicide or die by some other means if they know that their run isn't fast enough. The endurance factor factor really doesn't come in to play. It is more about knowing the difference between .200 and .300 when playing. Most highscorers when trying to take a 0th will suicide a lot but they will also finish the level many times with times most likely close to beating the 0th but not quite until they finally do. However with episode highscoring you have a bigger challenge; you must know how far ahead of the current 0th you are through each level and then how much time you can afford to lose because you can't just keep playing that level over and over until you get the best score you can. Otherwise, yes, every episode highscore would just be the current 0ths summed together. The fact that all episode highscores lag behind the collective level highscores for that same episode is why they are different type of challenge.

TheRealOne wrote: Here in lays the challenge. the player must either suicide or die by some other means if they know that their run isn't fast enough.

Hmm.. isn't this just a sort of side-effect of the lack of a "retry" option when you beat a level? Which itself was just lazyness/oversight on our part (in addition to us trying to keep the UI flow as simple as possible).

In N+ XBLA when you beat a level in an episode, you can move on to the next one OR you're free to retry the current level again and again to get a better score; this is the perspective from which we've been thinking about highscores. I guess we forgot that not everyone has played that version :)

raigan wrote:

TheRealOne wrote: Here in lays the challenge. the player must either suicide or die by some other means if they know that their run isn't fast enough.

Hmm.. isn't this just a sort of side-effect of the lack of a "retry" option when you beat a level? Which itself was just lazyness/oversight on our part (in addition to us trying to keep the UI flow as simple as possible).

In N+ XBLA when you beat a level in an episode, you can move on to the next one OR you're free to retry the current level again and again to get a better score; this is the perspective from which we've been thinking about highscores. I guess we forgot that not everyone has played that version :)

Including a replay level after completion option would totally change the face of episode highscoring. I'm not that bothered about it but I predict a massive wave of complaints from the seasoned episode highscorers to follow in the posts below. The inability to replay a level is an inherent part of the whole art of episode highscoring.

Would it also be possible to enable viewing a replay to a run that is a completion which isn't a personal best? These would be very useful to highscorers.

And finally, voting "I don't care because I don't highscore" is a bit like saying "I don't have any pie" in a Pie Forum.

raigan wrote:In N+ XBLA when you beat a level in an episode, you can move on to the next one OR you're free to retry the current level again and again to get a better score; this is the perspective from which we've been thinking about highscores. I guess we forgot that not everyone has played that version :)

Well that makes your previously written scenario really possible - running n for several days getting a "perfect" episode run.
Btw why isn't N+ for PC, too? I would totally buy it. (I know it's been /probably/ answered before, but really dunno where to look for)

raigan wrote:Basically we would like to understand the importance of ep highscores specifically -- how are they any different than "level highscores, with an absurd endurance element"? I feel like, if you're going to leave N running for several days just to get an ep highscore -- wouldn't it be easier if we allowed "resuming" from where you left off? And if we go that far, it's really no different than just level highscores..

Just to get this straight, I'm assuming what this means is that there will be episodes of maps but they won't necessarily need to be completed in groups of 5? That is, we'll be able to progress throughout the game and pick up from any level we left off? "Saving" the game after completing 54-1 would allow you to pick up at 54-2 the next time you opened N?

If you're going to change the game like that then episode highscores are pretty much useless in that regard.

I'm curious if you guys would implement an Endurance highscore section, in which when Endurance is turned on, you have to start from the beginning of a column and you play until you die with no time limit.

Manus Australis wrote:I'm curious if you guys would implement an Endurance highscore section, in which when Endurance is turned on, you have to start from the beginning of a column and you play until you die with no time limit.

If that includes self kills (pressing k or whatever your suicide key is), then as a highscorer I would probably fail within the first few frames on the first level of the column.

Still, that sounds like a pretty interesting idea, although tbh, I'd think Unreality would be more likely to implement that mode in NReality.

Although, does that mean that you would have to start the whole column from the start all over again if you die? Because that would suck, especially for the 80's column.

Meta Ing wrote:Although, does that mean that you would have to start the whole column from the start all over again if you die? Because that would suck, especially for the 80's column.

Hey, what about the 80s column. Those maps are all around five years old; do you think we could get some updates? (User-chosen of course.)

The thing about episodes, is that without them, gold would be near-meaningless. Most levels can be completed alone in under 90 seconds, but in the episodic format, gold must be gotten to stay alive (for the most part). As for episode highscores, keeping them would be important, but not important enough to halt progress on the game for, or to make sacrifices in other departments for.

Brainwasher wrote:The thing about episodes, is that without them, gold would be near-meaningless. Most levels can be completed alone in under 90 seconds, but in the episodic format, gold must be gotten to stay alive (for the most part). As for episode highscores, keeping them would be important, but not important enough to halt progress on the game for, or to make sacrifices in other departments for.

Wow... That just shows how little you play N. Gold is not meant to keep you alive unless you are really bad or unless the level is really long. Gold is meant to be an extra incentive to go to different places in the map because you will get a better score if you get the gold... u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d?

danield9tqh wrote:

Brainwasher wrote:The thing about episodes, is that without them, gold would be near-meaningless. Most levels can be completed alone in under 90 seconds, but in the episodic format, gold must be gotten to stay alive (for the most part). As for episode highscores, keeping them would be important, but not important enough to halt progress on the game for, or to make sacrifices in other departments for.

Wow... That just shows how little you play N. Gold is not meant to keep you alive unless you are really bad or unless the level is really long. Gold is meant to be an extra incentive to go to different places in the map because you will get a better score if you get the gold... u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d?

BAGAHAHAHAHAHAHA! AHGAGAHAHAAHAHAHHAHA! AZHAGAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAWAA AHAHAWHAWHAHAHAHAHA!

Kablizzy wrote:

danield9tqh wrote:

Brainwasher wrote:The thing about episodes, is that without them, gold would be near-meaningless. Most levels can be completed alone in under 90 seconds, but in the episodic format, gold must be gotten to stay alive (for the most part). As for episode highscores, keeping them would be important, but not important enough to halt progress on the game for, or to make sacrifices in other departments for.

Wow... That just shows how little you play N. Gold is not meant to keep you alive unless you are really bad or unless the level is really long. Gold is meant to be an extra incentive to go to different places in the map because you will get a better score if you get the gold... u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d?

BAGAHAHAHAHAHAHA! AHGAGAHAHAAHAHAHHAHA! AZHAGAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAWAA AHAHAWHAWHAHAHAHAHA!

Don't you just love newbies?

danield9tqh wrote:

Brainwasher wrote:The thing about episodes, is that without them, gold would be near-meaningless. Most levels can be completed alone in under 90 seconds, but in the episodic format, gold must be gotten to stay alive (for the most part). As for episode highscores, keeping them would be important, but not important enough to halt progress on the game for, or to make sacrifices in other departments for.

Wow... That just shows how little you play N. Gold is not meant to keep you alive unless you are really bad or unless the level is really long. Gold is meant to be an extra incentive to go to different places in the map because you will get a better score if you get the gold... u-n-d-e-r-s-t-a-n-d?

Oh, because it's not there to be pretty, no way. And don't even think about collecting, that's sooo 2007. Nowadays we avoid it like the plague.

/sarcasm

In fairness though, I don't doubt Daniels ability to beat the game without collecting gold.

Yeah I support those episode high scores, but if you're gonna get rid of them do not do it forever and just keep it on the back burner so you or someone like UnReality can put it back later. And who is to say Episodes should stay in packs of 5? Why not 3, 7, 10, hell 50?! (Whole Column). That's where the endurance idea would kick in. Um yeah I think everyone else explained it okay.

UM, YEAH

GamingWolf wrote:Why not 3, 7, 10, hell 50?! (Whole Column).

This ties in with the whole achievements idea--a massive 50-level episode kind of like Rock Band 2's Endless Setlist. Why not? :P

Meta Ing wrote:

Manus Australis wrote:I'm curious if you guys would implement an Endurance highscore section, in which when Endurance is turned on, you have to start from the beginning of a column and you play until you die with no time limit.

If that includes self kills (pressing k or whatever your suicide key is), then as a highscorer I would probably fail within the first few frames on the first level of the column.

Still, that sounds like a pretty interesting idea, although tbh, I'd think Unreality would be more likely to implement that mode in NReality.

Although, does that mean that you would have to start the whole column from the start all over again if you die? Because that would suck, especially for the 80's column.

This was the original idea: http://forum.droni.es/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=297
Needless to say, I think it would be interesting and fun to implement.

Ahahah. Ahahahahah. Wahah. Oh, man. That was good.

squibbles wrote:In fairness though, I don't doubt Daniels ability to beat the game without collecting gold.

Nope, I couldn't. But when you are just playing highscores... gold is a different story

danield9tqh wrote:

squibbles wrote:In fairness though, I don't doubt Daniels ability to beat the game without collecting gold.

Nope, I couldn't. But when you are just playing highscores... gold is a different story

Also there are some levels which force you to take some of the gold. :P

vankuss wrote:I don't think you should remove them, they are part of N and creates a nice addition to level highscores, because you have to do 5 levels perfectly in a row. Also it would be shame if the episode runs Mr_Lim and others did would be forgotten.

I agree. Episode highscores are part of the game and i play them very often. I found them more complete, i mean, you have to be able to do a lot of different "tricks" to be really good on five differents levels.

Manus Australis wrote: I'm curious if you guys would implement an Endurance highscore section, in which when Endurance is turned on, you have to start from the beginning of a column and you play until you die with no time limit.

Yeah, that would be a great implemention, to have column highscores, in which you have to pass the entire column withour closing N (like episodes), and to have a leaderboard for every column. I dont know if this is difficult to make or something, cuz i dont understand about programming, but hey Unreality, if you arent very busy you can try to implement this if you want!

Keep episode highscores. The fact that the time limit carries between levels would be useless if the game just became isolated levels. But it'd still be nice if v1.5 let you resume your progress within an episode.