Behaviour of N on gaining an extra frame

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Postby EddyMataGallos » 2015.06.22 (02:23)

Behaviour of N on gaining an extra frame
Sure you're all familiar with 151-0 speedrun, a run that van recently took by cleaning a frame of a seemingly maxed run by adding a jump, which only on rare occasions works. I've been fiddling around with the trick for some time today, and I'd like to open a thread to discuss and research about how it works. I'll start by mentioning what my first impressions were, and a couple theories on how it might work, including disquisitions about N handling fractionary frames, etc.
The last frame touch theory
After thinking that it was just a random frame that you gain when plain jumping on rare occassions, I checked out many runs and they all had the same in common, the jump ends right next to the door, that is, the next frame after hitting the door, the ninja would fall on the floor, if it didn't finish the run. Either that or just touching the door really low when falling, but before falling to the floor or it wouldn't work, probably because his feet are more to the right when he's in the air, when landed his feet are much closer to his body, and hence further away from the objective, in this case the door.

Both scenarios are just the same to replicate so which one is the cause is not really a problem. I had been trying it out unsuccessfully until I noticed it, and then managed it a couple times in no time, so I assumed this to be true. Naturally, I headed towards Debug mode to test my theory and eventually try it out in 59-0, as any normal Metanetter would.

This seemed to be right, however I eventually got two MBD's with this scenario happening, but one of them was 152f and the other one 153f, so this screwed the theory up. These are the MBD's, which I made as similar as possible in their endings.

153f:


152f:


Note that I finished writting both runs in frame 152, that way by using Display Mode you can verify that the second one finishes, while the first one requires another frame that has no input, and hence the arrow vanishes before finishing the level. Use fbf if you wish.

My final conclusion on this theory is that, even though it doesn't seem enough, it's a necessary condition for the extra time to be gained, as I couldn't manage a run without it. Didn't try too much, and I haven't seen all runs on the boards, but all the ones I saw were like that.
The one pixel apart theory
That being discarded, I noticed another interesting thing in the last frames of those MBDs I made. The ninja was damn close to the door, in fact, he was just barely grazing it. In N, you evidently don't advance a pixel per frame, that depends on your speed (at least), this means that every frame you hop from place to place skipping most pixels, however the hitbox is more precise, pixel-perfect, which means most times the last frame of the runs you're "far away" from the door, but since in the next one you passed it already, you're done.

Now, why do I say all this you say? Well, as I said, I naturally hurried to try this in 59-0, tried to get a perfect MBD and emulated the ending I explained above, falling right as the door starts. I checked the last frame, and guess what, the ninja doesn't happen to be grazing the door this time, it is really far.

In this conclusive picture you see the last two frames of all 3 MBD's, the first one being 59-0, the second one being the fast 151-0, and the third one being the slow 151-0. Start studying it!

Image

Note how on the second one, on frame 153 it has already touched the door, it has passed the hitbox, meanwhile on the third one it hasn't yet.

From this picture we deduce that this jumping trick is not a one frame trick, but rather it saves way less, but enough to cut it to the next frame.

Based on this I also can, unfortunately, foretell that this implies the trick will not work in 59-0, because you don't happen to be close to the door on the last frame at all.
Fractionary frames rounding
This is just another way of rephrasing the previous theory, I guess, but its worth saying because it provides another point of view of study. Because of the ninja skipping many pixels, it is clearly very unlikely that the ninja will hit the hitbox of any particular entity exactly, but rather one frame it'll be far apart, and the next one it'll already be inside it or past it.

It is then natural to ask oneself the following question: Does N, in the insides of itself, predict whether some hitbox is going to be hit inbetween two frames, how does it anticipate it if so, how does it handle that, which frame is the hit attributed to? How is all that adjusted, is it rounded, maybe truncated?

This time, we are in particular concerned about the exit door hitbox. You guys have sure noticed how after finishing the level, the clock takes a bit to finish rolling numbers. Have you even been attentive enough to notice that time varies depending on the run? Sometimes it stops suddenly, sometimes it takes some more time to adjust. This just leads to thinking that N indeed detects the ninja has hit the hitbox inbetween two frames, the closer it is to one exact frame, the more suddenly it stops, the further away you're (up to a max of 0.025, of course), the longer it takes to go to the frame that it should stop.

If you're attentive enough you've sure noticed how sometimes after finishing a run the clock is painfully close to stoping at, say, .725, but finally it slowly rolls down to .700. Some other times it stops so suddenly that you think "wow, that was close, I almost don't make that one more frame!". Some rare times, it even stops at odd times, like .749 rather than .750, which indicates you were lucky as fuck to be "awarded" that extra frame, it almost went down to .725. I can't remember a converse situation, i.e. .751, but it might just be I didn't notice it. It would mean you were unlucky as fuck. Anyways, this brings the topic of fractions of frames, to which precision this is detected and how it is handled is very important, and I have no clue of course.

However, if all this is true, what we can deduce from the picture above that what happens in 151-0 is that in optimal conditions you happen to be massively close to the door on the last frame, it just needs a little help, a little push, to be past it on that same frame. This leads to thinking, again, that the jumping trick only saves a tiny fraction of a frame, just enough to make the cut to the next frame in the special case of 151-0, but not enough to do it in general (namely, in 59-0 ;_;).
Conclusion
I've exposed some behaviours and knowledge that sure many of you already knew, mainly for the completion of the post. I've also exposed a couple theories that I think might explain how this works, however nothing is conclusive, and hence the conclusion is that there's no conclusion yet and it requires more research. Unfortunately for now I'd say this trick won't help in 59-0, but it's still interesting to study how it works.

You might have a little doubt yet. In the picture above, why is one of the runs 152f and the other one 153f? They're both very similar, the difference between the distance to the door in both is clearly way less than what the ninja travels in a frame as we can see in the picture of 59-0 in which the ninja is much farther yet its also its last frame; they fall the frame after touching the door, and even the 152f run ninja is a bit higher than the other one, so what is going on here? Well that certainly deserves to be studied, because I'd like to know too. Here's a more precise look at those final frames:

Image

And here's the best zoom I can get in Flash:

Image

You can clearly corroborate in this last one that, indeed, the foot of the ninja is closer to the door in the first picture, just barely. If that makes the difference, just imagine in 59-0, where the foot is like 10 times farther away from the door. The why, though, needs to be studied, we need your help!

Discuss.
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About me & Stats (Spoiler)

Hi, im Eddy, a Spanish highscorer and current Grandmaster of N. I've been playing N since 2006, I beat it on the 8th September 2008, and NReality later too. Started intermittently highscoring Metanet in 2010, although serious highscoring started in late 2011.

Current Stats
• Completed N on 8th Sept. 2008
• Completed NReality on 24th Dec. 2010
0th Place on Metanet 0th Rankings with 443 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Top20 Rankings with 599 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Top10 Rankings with 599 Scores.
1st Place on Metanet Top5 Rankings with 595 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Level 0th Rankings with 361 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Episode 0th Rankings with 82 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Total Level Score: 72142.900 (20:02:22.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Episode Score: 35669.900 (09:54:29.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Point Rankings with 11669 Points.
0th Place in NReality 0th Rankings with 235 0ths.
0th Place for a grand total of 676 Total 0ths.
• Winner of some contests (BUST, 100, 9000, Bounty Hunters, SOAST) and of some rounds of some contests (ROPP, NErratic, Red Ball, NReality Team Arena)

{Info as of 01/Feb/2015} The info may be outdated.

Achievements
• 6th highscorer to reach 100 Metanet 0ths
• 4th highscorer to reach 200 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 300 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 400 Metanet 0ths
• 8th ever Grandmaster
• 2nd* highscorer to reach 599 top-20 Scores
• 1st highscorer to reach 599 top-10 Scores
• 10th highscorer to reach 70k Level Score
• 5th highscorer to reach 71k Level Score
• 2nd highscorer to reach 71.5k Level Score
• 1st highscorer to reach 72k Level Score

Relevant Dates
• First 0th: 31-3 on 04/Oct/10
• Reached 100 Metanet 0ths on 25/Feb/12
• Reached 200 Metanet 0ths on 30/Sep/12
• Reached 300 Metanet 0ths on 16/Mar/13
• Reached 400 Metanet 0ths on 04/Sept/14
• Reached highest amount of 0ths on Jan/2013
• Became the Grandmaster on 12/Apr/2012
• Reached 70k Level Score on 25/Dec/11
• Reached 71k Level Score on 13/Jan/11
• Reached 71.5k Level Score on 01/Aug/12
• Reached 72k Level Score on 04/Jul/14
• Completed N 1.4 on 08/Sept/08
• Completed NReality on 24/Dec/10
• Reached 100 NReality 0ths on Oct/2011
• Reached 200 NReality 0ths on Nov/2011
• Reached 100 Top-20 Scores on Aug/10
• Reached 200 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 300 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 400 Top-20 Scores on Dec/11
• Reached 500 Top-20 Scores on Jan/12
• Reached 599 Top-20 Scores on 04/Apr/12
• Reached 599 Top-10 Scores on 18/Nov/12

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Postby MiBeM » 2015.06.22 (09:59)

EddyMataGallos wrote:probably because his feet are more to the right when he's in the air
The ninja's hitbox is always a circle regardless of his moving animation so this is definitely false (as you later deduced). This is interesting, I'll give it some thought and testing and see if I can come up with an explanation.
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Postby macrohenry » 2015.06.22 (14:46)

That was quite interesting to read. Good work. I also tested some stuff:
1.) Normal (136f)

2.) Jump (135f)

So as it seems it doesn't make a difference whether you land in the exit or just run straight into it.

136f run (image shows 135th frame):
Image
135f run (image shows 134th frame):
Image
These images show the ninja in the frame before he hits the exit. It seems that the 135f run ninja in fact gains like half a frame because he is further away from the exit, yet he manages to reach it in the next frame, just like the 136f run ninja. That seems to confirm Eddy's one pixel apart theory but with the addition that you can land or run into the exit. You get the same result. The jump only seems to change the way the ninja runs towards the exit.
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Postby _danielr_ » 2015.06.22 (17:44)

MiBeM wrote:The ninja's hitbox is always a circle regardless of his moving animation so this is definitely false (as you later deduced). This is interesting, I'll give it some thought and testing and see if I can come up with an explanation.
While I can understand a circle being the range of the ninja's reach, how can it be the hitbox at all times?
What about (for example) scenarios when a missile barely misses the ninja? I know this is different to reaching the exit, but would the same physics not apply?
Genuinely curious, here.

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Postby MiBeM » 2015.06.22 (19:41)

_danielr_ wrote:What about (for example) scenarios when a missile barely misses the ninja?
Now that I think about it, I can't say I'm 100% sure how the game handles this. It's possible the ninja's individual body parts would be used for these collisions, as they are when animating the ragdoll but it would make more sense to use the same hitbox for everything. Could you perhaps point me to a demo where a close call like this happens? I've never analyzed this so precisely, just kind of assumed the ninja is a circle with all objects because it's convenient and requires significantly fewer calculations. What I know for sure is that a circle is always used when it comes to collisions with tiles, which clearly applies to the exit as well (as evidenced by Eddy's screenshots where the run is completed before the ninja's leg touches the door).
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Postby _danielr_ » 2015.06.22 (21:22)

MiBeM wrote:
_danielr_ wrote:What about (for example) scenarios when a missile barely misses the ninja?
...Could you perhaps point me to a demo where a close call like this happens?
Here's an example of what I meant. Kind of.

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Postby MiBeM » 2015.06.22 (22:22)

_danielr_ wrote:Here's an example of what I meant. Kind of.
I watched a demo of this slowed down on underclock mode and using the demo playback feature of Nreality to see the ninja's circular hitbox (the circle shown seems to be an accurate representation of it) and it turns out none of the rockets collided with it - they went extremely close but didn't overlap it. While this is obviously not proof, I have no reason not to believe this is the case in every situation.

Figuring this stuff out would be so much easier if we had access to the game's source code.
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Postby EddyMataGallos » 2015.06.23 (04:14)

macrohenry wrote:That was quite interesting to read. Good work. I also tested some stuff:
1.) Normal (136f)

2.) Jump (135f)

So as it seems it doesn't make a difference whether you land in the exit or just run straight into it.

136f run (image shows 135th frame):
Image
135f run (image shows 134th frame):
Image
These images show the ninja in the frame before he hits the exit. It seems that the 135f run ninja in fact gains like half a frame because he is further away from the exit, yet he manages to reach it in the next frame, just like the 136f run ninja. That seems to confirm Eddy's one pixel apart theory but with the addition that you can land or run into the exit. You get the same result. The jump only seems to change the way the ninja runs towards the exit.
That's interesting, I couldn't manage a 152f run by jumping and not falling in the door, maybe I didn't try enough, or maybe both the jump and the falling play a role in the trick.

I like what you mentioned about "changing the way of running". By jumping you probably alter the position of the feet compared to not jumping, and if that makes a difference then it means its either because the jump gives you a frame, or because the new feet position reaches the door earlier, which would imply the hitbox is more precise than a circle as Mibem says.

M&R have two tutorials on their collision detection system, the answers to some of the questions that have arised here might be there, I don't have time to examine them now:

http://www.metanetsoftware.com/technique/tutorialA.html
http://www.metanetsoftware.com/technique/tutorialB.html

This sentence, however, seems to corroborate Mibem's theory, though:

M&R wrote:In N, this was a problem we could ignore -- since the ninja was the only object which rays needed to be tested against, we simply performed a ray-vs.-tiles test to find the point at which the ray hits the tiles, and then we performed a ray-vs.-circle test against the ninja to see if the ray hit the ninja before hitting the tiles.
Although I haven't really read the rest of the context, maybe this only applies to ninja vs tile collision.
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Impressive flag by ska -|- N2High - My software for N2.0 -|- Awesome sig by Hendor
About me & Stats (Spoiler)

Hi, im Eddy, a Spanish highscorer and current Grandmaster of N. I've been playing N since 2006, I beat it on the 8th September 2008, and NReality later too. Started intermittently highscoring Metanet in 2010, although serious highscoring started in late 2011.

Current Stats
• Completed N on 8th Sept. 2008
• Completed NReality on 24th Dec. 2010
0th Place on Metanet 0th Rankings with 443 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Top20 Rankings with 599 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Top10 Rankings with 599 Scores.
1st Place on Metanet Top5 Rankings with 595 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Level 0th Rankings with 361 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Episode 0th Rankings with 82 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Total Level Score: 72142.900 (20:02:22.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Episode Score: 35669.900 (09:54:29.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Point Rankings with 11669 Points.
0th Place in NReality 0th Rankings with 235 0ths.
0th Place for a grand total of 676 Total 0ths.
• Winner of some contests (BUST, 100, 9000, Bounty Hunters, SOAST) and of some rounds of some contests (ROPP, NErratic, Red Ball, NReality Team Arena)

{Info as of 01/Feb/2015} The info may be outdated.

Achievements
• 6th highscorer to reach 100 Metanet 0ths
• 4th highscorer to reach 200 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 300 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 400 Metanet 0ths
• 8th ever Grandmaster
• 2nd* highscorer to reach 599 top-20 Scores
• 1st highscorer to reach 599 top-10 Scores
• 10th highscorer to reach 70k Level Score
• 5th highscorer to reach 71k Level Score
• 2nd highscorer to reach 71.5k Level Score
• 1st highscorer to reach 72k Level Score

Relevant Dates
• First 0th: 31-3 on 04/Oct/10
• Reached 100 Metanet 0ths on 25/Feb/12
• Reached 200 Metanet 0ths on 30/Sep/12
• Reached 300 Metanet 0ths on 16/Mar/13
• Reached 400 Metanet 0ths on 04/Sept/14
• Reached highest amount of 0ths on Jan/2013
• Became the Grandmaster on 12/Apr/2012
• Reached 70k Level Score on 25/Dec/11
• Reached 71k Level Score on 13/Jan/11
• Reached 71.5k Level Score on 01/Aug/12
• Reached 72k Level Score on 04/Jul/14
• Completed N 1.4 on 08/Sept/08
• Completed NReality on 24/Dec/10
• Reached 100 NReality 0ths on Oct/2011
• Reached 200 NReality 0ths on Nov/2011
• Reached 100 Top-20 Scores on Aug/10
• Reached 200 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 300 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 400 Top-20 Scores on Dec/11
• Reached 500 Top-20 Scores on Jan/12
• Reached 599 Top-20 Scores on 04/Apr/12
• Reached 599 Top-10 Scores on 18/Nov/12

Deds & Images (Spoiler)

Thanks to ska for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to BluePretzel for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to da_guru for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this full episode to me!: 00-0 00-100-2 00-3 00-4
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this mappack to me
Thanks to zoasBE for partially dedicating this map to me
Thanks to VODKALOVER for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to runningninja for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for partially dedicating this map to me
Thanks to trance for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to llabesab for dedicating this map to me
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Thanks to RandomDigits/SpartaX18 for dedicating this map to me
Sorry if Im missing any ded.

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Postby sidke » 2015.06.23 (06:06)

hello i am here to give what i know.
the ninja's pose has nothing to do with touching an exit, it's only dependent on his actual position and not based on any appendages. on a single frame, if he's ever within ~22 pixels, (12 for exit radius, 12 * 0.8333... for the ninja) it triggers the level win. there is no rounding or anticipating actions, at any given frame it checks his collision will all objects. all objects do radius checking, everything is hitcircles. being one frame earlier but further from the exit may mean you were 21 pixels from the exit in the faster demo, and maybe 23 pixels at the same frame on the slower demo, and the next frame you were 19 pixels. the actual screenshots you took are a lot closer than that, but just apply the same concept to shorter distances of fractions of pixels
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Postby MiBeM » 2015.06.23 (10:45)

I have read both of the Metanet tutorials when I was making my own rudimentary 2D physics engine (to learn and make games, still in progress), and those were one of the reasons I expected the ninja to always use a circular hitbox. They don't go in-depth into the mechanics of N in particular, they're more about the concepts behind their collision detection system (Separating Axis Theorem for narrow phase and a grid system for broad phase), but based on the things I learned and knowing an important idea behind the creation of N was the player being a circle and physics-based movement it would simply make no sense to use different hitboxes for different collisions. As sidke has now verified, I was right.
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Postby EddyMataGallos » 2015.06.23 (19:33)

Thanks for the info sidke, that's very clarifying. However, when you say all objects do radius check, does that mean the door's hitbox is a circle as well? Because that doesn't make any sense to me. Is that radius check done in the Euclidean distance? Because maybe it uses the common Maximum distance or the Manhattan distance in which circles are squares. That would make more sense (and its simpler and more precise to compute, as well), as I don't recall doors having a circular hitbox.

On a different note, what do you think is the reason for that little advance that jumping produces, then?
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Impressive flag by ska -|- N2High - My software for N2.0 -|- Awesome sig by Hendor
About me & Stats (Spoiler)

Hi, im Eddy, a Spanish highscorer and current Grandmaster of N. I've been playing N since 2006, I beat it on the 8th September 2008, and NReality later too. Started intermittently highscoring Metanet in 2010, although serious highscoring started in late 2011.

Current Stats
• Completed N on 8th Sept. 2008
• Completed NReality on 24th Dec. 2010
0th Place on Metanet 0th Rankings with 443 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Top20 Rankings with 599 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Top10 Rankings with 599 Scores.
1st Place on Metanet Top5 Rankings with 595 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Level 0th Rankings with 361 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Episode 0th Rankings with 82 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Total Level Score: 72142.900 (20:02:22.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Episode Score: 35669.900 (09:54:29.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Point Rankings with 11669 Points.
0th Place in NReality 0th Rankings with 235 0ths.
0th Place for a grand total of 676 Total 0ths.
• Winner of some contests (BUST, 100, 9000, Bounty Hunters, SOAST) and of some rounds of some contests (ROPP, NErratic, Red Ball, NReality Team Arena)

{Info as of 01/Feb/2015} The info may be outdated.

Achievements
• 6th highscorer to reach 100 Metanet 0ths
• 4th highscorer to reach 200 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 300 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 400 Metanet 0ths
• 8th ever Grandmaster
• 2nd* highscorer to reach 599 top-20 Scores
• 1st highscorer to reach 599 top-10 Scores
• 10th highscorer to reach 70k Level Score
• 5th highscorer to reach 71k Level Score
• 2nd highscorer to reach 71.5k Level Score
• 1st highscorer to reach 72k Level Score

Relevant Dates
• First 0th: 31-3 on 04/Oct/10
• Reached 100 Metanet 0ths on 25/Feb/12
• Reached 200 Metanet 0ths on 30/Sep/12
• Reached 300 Metanet 0ths on 16/Mar/13
• Reached 400 Metanet 0ths on 04/Sept/14
• Reached highest amount of 0ths on Jan/2013
• Became the Grandmaster on 12/Apr/2012
• Reached 70k Level Score on 25/Dec/11
• Reached 71k Level Score on 13/Jan/11
• Reached 71.5k Level Score on 01/Aug/12
• Reached 72k Level Score on 04/Jul/14
• Completed N 1.4 on 08/Sept/08
• Completed NReality on 24/Dec/10
• Reached 100 NReality 0ths on Oct/2011
• Reached 200 NReality 0ths on Nov/2011
• Reached 100 Top-20 Scores on Aug/10
• Reached 200 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 300 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 400 Top-20 Scores on Dec/11
• Reached 500 Top-20 Scores on Jan/12
• Reached 599 Top-20 Scores on 04/Apr/12
• Reached 599 Top-10 Scores on 18/Nov/12

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Postby sidke » 2015.06.23 (21:11)

euclidean distance. all objects have hitcircles, including exits. it's possible that the central position of n, when standing, is closer to the ground so when you jump you have a chance to put the circles closer together for collision
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Postby atomizer » 2015.06.24 (20:00)

I was writing a reply without realizing everything is explained already, so here is a silly drawing instead, illustrating the situation.

Image

The green player is touching the exit, the blue one does not. As explained, the effect comes from the difference in size - exit radius is 12px, ninja radius is 10px. The difference is extremely small - precisely, the green player is closer than the blue player by sqrt(22^2 + 2^2) - 22 = 0.0907 pixels. It is a very rare occurrence when it can make a difference, since max ground speed is 5 pixels per frame. If you consider the frame boundary alignment to be random across multiple maps, this is useful only in around 2% of all frame wars that include a flat ground, full speed finish.

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Postby shomman » 2015.06.24 (22:57)

atomizer wrote:I was writing a reply without realizing everything is explained already, so here is a silly drawing instead, illustrating the situation.

Image

The green player is touching the exit, the blue one does not. As explained, the effect comes from the difference in size - exit radius is 12px, ninja radius is 10px. The difference is extremely small - precisely, the green player is closer than the blue player by sqrt(22^2 + 2^2) - 22 = 0.0907 pixels. It is a very rare occurrence when it can make a difference, since max ground speed is 5 pixels per frame. If you consider the frame boundary alignment to be random across multiple maps, this is useful only in around 2% of all frame wars that include a flat ground, full speed finish.
That's a really useful explanation Atomizer, thanks - I was struggling with the crazy words sidke and eddy and everyone was using.
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Postby ska » 2015.06.25 (03:31)

Why would you have a circular hitbox for an oblong shape like the exit? makes no sense to me...

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Postby EddyMataGallos » 2015.06.25 (05:38)

Awesome, thanks sidke and atom for your explanations. I guess the slight gain in that map is due to that, as I still haven't been able to reproduce it without the jump being that particular kind of jump. Mystery solved!

However, what macro says, which I've also seen happening often, seems to suggest that jumping on itself can also contribute to advancing slightly more, which is interesting. I believe I remember having read somewhere that jumping also slightly increased your x-speed at the time of jump for no reason, is this true? (nothing crazy considering they also use horizontal speed to calculate how deep a bb goes when you fall on top). It certainly seems like so as we know that in the particular case of tunnels, repeatedly jumping almost always yields an extra frame in long enough tunnels.
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Impressive flag by ska -|- N2High - My software for N2.0 -|- Awesome sig by Hendor
About me & Stats (Spoiler)

Hi, im Eddy, a Spanish highscorer and current Grandmaster of N. I've been playing N since 2006, I beat it on the 8th September 2008, and NReality later too. Started intermittently highscoring Metanet in 2010, although serious highscoring started in late 2011.

Current Stats
• Completed N on 8th Sept. 2008
• Completed NReality on 24th Dec. 2010
0th Place on Metanet 0th Rankings with 443 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Top20 Rankings with 599 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Top10 Rankings with 599 Scores.
1st Place on Metanet Top5 Rankings with 595 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Level 0th Rankings with 361 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Episode 0th Rankings with 82 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Total Level Score: 72142.900 (20:02:22.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Episode Score: 35669.900 (09:54:29.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Point Rankings with 11669 Points.
0th Place in NReality 0th Rankings with 235 0ths.
0th Place for a grand total of 676 Total 0ths.
• Winner of some contests (BUST, 100, 9000, Bounty Hunters, SOAST) and of some rounds of some contests (ROPP, NErratic, Red Ball, NReality Team Arena)

{Info as of 01/Feb/2015} The info may be outdated.

Achievements
• 6th highscorer to reach 100 Metanet 0ths
• 4th highscorer to reach 200 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 300 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 400 Metanet 0ths
• 8th ever Grandmaster
• 2nd* highscorer to reach 599 top-20 Scores
• 1st highscorer to reach 599 top-10 Scores
• 10th highscorer to reach 70k Level Score
• 5th highscorer to reach 71k Level Score
• 2nd highscorer to reach 71.5k Level Score
• 1st highscorer to reach 72k Level Score

Relevant Dates
• First 0th: 31-3 on 04/Oct/10
• Reached 100 Metanet 0ths on 25/Feb/12
• Reached 200 Metanet 0ths on 30/Sep/12
• Reached 300 Metanet 0ths on 16/Mar/13
• Reached 400 Metanet 0ths on 04/Sept/14
• Reached highest amount of 0ths on Jan/2013
• Became the Grandmaster on 12/Apr/2012
• Reached 70k Level Score on 25/Dec/11
• Reached 71k Level Score on 13/Jan/11
• Reached 71.5k Level Score on 01/Aug/12
• Reached 72k Level Score on 04/Jul/14
• Completed N 1.4 on 08/Sept/08
• Completed NReality on 24/Dec/10
• Reached 100 NReality 0ths on Oct/2011
• Reached 200 NReality 0ths on Nov/2011
• Reached 100 Top-20 Scores on Aug/10
• Reached 200 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 300 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 400 Top-20 Scores on Dec/11
• Reached 500 Top-20 Scores on Jan/12
• Reached 599 Top-20 Scores on 04/Apr/12
• Reached 599 Top-10 Scores on 18/Nov/12

Deds & Images (Spoiler)

Thanks to ska for dedicating this map to me
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Postby sidke » 2015.06.25 (06:03)

ska wrote:Why would you have a circular hitbox for an oblong shape like the exit? makes no sense to me...
because it's not the shape that the detection is on, it's the position of the exit.
it's easier to detect the distance between two points than shape collision of a ninja and a square
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Postby golf » 2015.07.09 (19:59)

So I was thinking this over a bit at work today, and came up with a couple thoughts worth sharing. First, Raif showed us several years ago that you can gain an extra frame when falling onto the exit by aiming at the center, instead of falling straight down the edge of a wall/chimney. This is easily explained by the circular hitbox, I think.

Secondly, is there any advantage to jumping before the exit on a level where its maxed because of drone timing, such as 49-3? Assuming that the ninja is close enough to the exit to gain that extra frame without drone interference, would you still be able to get the extra frame, or would you simply die to the drone one frame before finishing as before?
[16:24] <@golfkid> I'm pretty sure I will literally scream if I die on the last column of 78-4 at this point
[16:25] <trance> Oh, yeah. That level.
[16:29] <@golfkid> lol
[16:30] <@golfkid> It looks so simple
[16:30] <@golfkid> But it says "NO! I will rape your sanity!"
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My Accomplishments:
Completed N; Completed Nreality on 4/11/08
598 top 20 scores in N 1.4 as of 6/28/14 (498 level scores, 100 episode scores, 2nd position in top 20 rankings); reached 100 on 12/14/2008; 300 (half of all possible :D) on 11/9/2009; 400 on 12/2/2011; max of 598 on 2/3/2013; tied for 0th in top 20 rankings on 2/26-27/13

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Postby ska » 2015.07.10 (04:08)

golf wrote:So I was thinking this over a bit at work today, and came up with a couple thoughts worth sharing. First, Raif showed us several years ago that you can gain an extra frame when falling onto the exit by aiming at the center, instead of falling straight down the edge of a wall/chimney. This is easily explained by the circular hitbox, I think.

Secondly, is there any advantage to jumping before the exit on a level where its maxed because of drone timing, such as 49-3? Assuming that the ninja is close enough to the exit to gain that extra frame without drone interference, would you still be able to get the extra frame, or would you simply die to the drone one frame before finishing as before?
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Postby cooperverdon » 2015.07.10 (05:48)

Hi, you guys are talking about +1 frames, and while I'm not familiar with 1.4, I have done a fair amount of thinking on this for v2. I have concluded that the ninjas movement is independent of the frame counts, ie, he doesnt move at a pixel per frame, he moves smoothly through the map. This means that while half frames are still impossible, you can complete a level faster, by less than 1/60th of a second, and the game will register the same score as a slightly slower run. If you are at the cusp of a 1/120 of a second improvement, and one player is reaching at 1/120.5th, and you gain a half frame by jumping/perfect door grab, you will fall to 1/119.5, and thus the rounding will work in your favor and add a frame score will be added, you arent 1/60th of a second faster, you are 1/120 of a second faster.

What I think is that, you dont add +1 frame every time you jump/get to door, you add a miniscule period of time, and the games clock rounding may or may not work in your favor.

At nv2's 60fps, unmaxes are much easier, Ive watched nreality replays at 40fps with the same recorded score, and the difference between runs is very noticeable. Speed run of 12-3 for example, looks possible to unmax.

Concerning 59-0, has anyone tried the corner jump at the top left of that block? I have reached the corner and gotten the key, but each time I stumble and fall straight down. Maybe a more experiences player would have more luck. But unmaxing that level at 40fps seems incredible hard/impossible.

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Postby ska » 2015.07.10 (08:29)

cooperverdon wrote:Hi, you guys are talking about +1 frames, and while I'm not familiar with 1.4, I have done a fair amount of thinking on this for v2. I have concluded that the ninjas movement is independent of the frame counts, ie, he doesnt move at a pixel per frame, he moves smoothly through the map. This means that while half frames are still impossible, you can complete a level faster, by less than 1/60th of a second, and the game will register the same score as a slightly slower run. If you are at the cusp of a 1/120 of a second improvement, and one player is reaching at 1/120.5th, and you gain a half frame by jumping/perfect door grab, you will fall to 1/119.5, and thus the rounding will work in your favor and add a frame score will be added, you arent 1/60th of a second faster, you are 1/120 of a second faster.

What I think is that, you dont add +1 frame every time you jump/get to door, you add a miniscule period of time, and the games clock rounding may or may not work in your favor.

At nv2's 60fps, unmaxes are much easier, Ive watched nreality replays at 40fps with the same recorded score, and the difference between runs is very noticeable. Speed run of 12-3 for example, looks possible to unmax.

Concerning 59-0, has anyone tried the corner jump at the top left of that block? I have reached the corner and gotten the key, but each time I stumble and fall straight down. Maybe a more experiences player would have more luck. But unmaxing that level at 40fps seems incredible hard/impossible.
I can assure you that almost every conceivable way of improving 59-0 has been attempted since 2004.

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Postby EddyMataGallos » 2015.07.10 (13:00)

cooperverdon wrote:What I think is that, you dont add +1 frame every time you jump/get to door, you add a miniscule period of time, and the games clock rounding may or may not work in your favor.
This is what we've been saying all the time, I just titled the thread "extra frame" for simplicity, but we've been talking about fractions of frames and smooth movement during the whole thread. Check all posts to see this (because very interesting information has been said). Also, you can deduce by the close-up pictures I took, specially this:

Image

that the difference between both is much less than a pixel (on regular zoom) and much much less than a frame (hell, that's like 1/12th of a frame or less), yet the first one is a frame faster because it makes the cut to the next frame (which is what you said about rounding), as I already explained in my post.

This happens because, regardless jumping or not, you're very close to the next frame when you finish, so you just need a little help (like a 1/12th of a frame saver) to get rounded up.

The main reason the post was created can be explained by the circular hitbox. Btw, this doesn't happen in 59-0, as you can see in my first post, you're very far from the door on the the last frame, which means you need a big time saver (like over half a frame) to cut it to the next frame.

It'd be very interesting to see your unmaxing powers in Nv1.4 though, seriously, because I'd like some of those maxed scores to get unmaxed xD 12-3 sr for example, although 59-0 would be the best of course. I don't think doing a corner jump can help at all to gain extra horizontal speed though (why would it?!).
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Impressive flag by ska -|- N2High - My software for N2.0 -|- Awesome sig by Hendor
About me & Stats (Spoiler)

Hi, im Eddy, a Spanish highscorer and current Grandmaster of N. I've been playing N since 2006, I beat it on the 8th September 2008, and NReality later too. Started intermittently highscoring Metanet in 2010, although serious highscoring started in late 2011.

Current Stats
• Completed N on 8th Sept. 2008
• Completed NReality on 24th Dec. 2010
0th Place on Metanet 0th Rankings with 443 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Top20 Rankings with 599 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Top10 Rankings with 599 Scores.
1st Place on Metanet Top5 Rankings with 595 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Level 0th Rankings with 361 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Episode 0th Rankings with 82 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Total Level Score: 72142.900 (20:02:22.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Episode Score: 35669.900 (09:54:29.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Point Rankings with 11669 Points.
0th Place in NReality 0th Rankings with 235 0ths.
0th Place for a grand total of 676 Total 0ths.
• Winner of some contests (BUST, 100, 9000, Bounty Hunters, SOAST) and of some rounds of some contests (ROPP, NErratic, Red Ball, NReality Team Arena)

{Info as of 01/Feb/2015} The info may be outdated.

Achievements
• 6th highscorer to reach 100 Metanet 0ths
• 4th highscorer to reach 200 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 300 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 400 Metanet 0ths
• 8th ever Grandmaster
• 2nd* highscorer to reach 599 top-20 Scores
• 1st highscorer to reach 599 top-10 Scores
• 10th highscorer to reach 70k Level Score
• 5th highscorer to reach 71k Level Score
• 2nd highscorer to reach 71.5k Level Score
• 1st highscorer to reach 72k Level Score

Relevant Dates
• First 0th: 31-3 on 04/Oct/10
• Reached 100 Metanet 0ths on 25/Feb/12
• Reached 200 Metanet 0ths on 30/Sep/12
• Reached 300 Metanet 0ths on 16/Mar/13
• Reached 400 Metanet 0ths on 04/Sept/14
• Reached highest amount of 0ths on Jan/2013
• Became the Grandmaster on 12/Apr/2012
• Reached 70k Level Score on 25/Dec/11
• Reached 71k Level Score on 13/Jan/11
• Reached 71.5k Level Score on 01/Aug/12
• Reached 72k Level Score on 04/Jul/14
• Completed N 1.4 on 08/Sept/08
• Completed NReality on 24/Dec/10
• Reached 100 NReality 0ths on Oct/2011
• Reached 200 NReality 0ths on Nov/2011
• Reached 100 Top-20 Scores on Aug/10
• Reached 200 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 300 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 400 Top-20 Scores on Dec/11
• Reached 500 Top-20 Scores on Jan/12
• Reached 599 Top-20 Scores on 04/Apr/12
• Reached 599 Top-10 Scores on 18/Nov/12

Deds & Images (Spoiler)

Thanks to ska for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to BluePretzel for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to da_guru for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this full episode to me!: 00-0 00-100-2 00-3 00-4
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this mappack to me
Thanks to zoasBE for partially dedicating this map to me
Thanks to VODKALOVER for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to runningninja for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for partially dedicating this map to me
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Postby ska » 2015.07.10 (16:03)

EddyMataGallos wrote: It'd be very interesting to see your unmaxing powers in Nv1.4 though ... 59-0 would be the best of course. I don't think doing a corner jump can help at all to gain extra horizontal speed though (why would it?!).
Yeah, it would need to be the right side, and the trajectory is simply impossible to achieve.

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Postby cooperverdon » 2015.07.11 (03:46)

EddyMataGallos wrote: This is what we've been saying all the time
my mistake, I didnt reply the same day I read the earlier posts, just replied after reading the few posts right before mine.

Nreality unmaxes I think would be a challenge. Do they occur often on levels with all 20 spots filled?

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Postby ska » 2015.07.11 (07:45)

cooperverdon wrote:
EddyMataGallos wrote: This is what we've been saying all the time
my mistake, I didnt reply the same day I read the earlier posts, just replied after reading the few posts right before mine.

Nreality unmaxes I think would be a challenge. Do they occur often on levels with all 20 spots filled?
They're much more common on speedrun, but they do exist on the highscores boards, too.


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