Tool-Assisted Highscores/Speedruns

Are you a rad N player or want to put some rad N players to the test? Talk about your skills and challenge each other at N in this forum.

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Postby ska » 2015.01.16 (14:18)

Why wasn't an MBD ever done for 00-4 sr? Is 164 max?

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Postby Raif » 2015.06.04 (22:36)

alsojp27ace wrote:13-0 highscore (123.200):


I struggled to get a decent trajectory off that final cj, I'm sure there are still frames left in this level.


Found an incomplete 13-0 mbd on my pastebin:

Was originally doing this which turned out to be slower,


faster with rcj:

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Postby ska » 2015.06.05 (02:18)

Very nice.

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Postby jp27ace » 2015.08.28 (21:32)

TheRealOne wrote:Edit: 95-4, Sticking this here so I don't lose it on my HDD. I was attempting to think up a real time method for skipping waiting for the drone at the start. This works, but is way too hard for real time.


Here you go, I feel like you're still going to run into drones later though
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Postby TheRealOne » 2015.08.29 (01:33)

jp27ace wrote:
TheRealOne wrote:Edit: 95-4, Sticking this here so I don't lose it on my HDD. I was attempting to think up a real time method for skipping waiting for the drone at the start. This works, but is way too hard for real time.


Here you go, I feel like you're still going to run into drones later though


Ah. I did not foresee those two drones coming down the wall in unison like that. So in order to not wait at the start you would have to redo the gold collection route. Bummer.
<@Izzy> Holy balls, sweet run.
<@gloomp> Holy sweet, balls run.
<@Izzy> Sweet, balls run holy.
<@gloomp> Run sweet, balls holy.
<@Izzy> Sweet run, ballsy hole.
<@gloomp> All's sweet, holeb run.
<@Izzy> Ballsy nun, sweet mole.
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Postby jp27ace » 2015.08.29 (08:35)

TheRealOne wrote:
jp27ace wrote:
TheRealOne wrote:Edit: 95-4, Sticking this here so I don't lose it on my HDD. I was attempting to think up a real time method for skipping waiting for the drone at the start. This works, but is way too hard for real time.


Here you go, I feel like you're still going to run into drones later though


Ah. I did not foresee those two drones coming down the wall in unison like that. So in order to not wait at the start you would have to redo the gold collection route. Bummer.


I don't think I'm insane enough to try and pull off this and the start all in one run (incidentally, I had already redone the gold collection):
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Postby Raif » 2015.09.04 (17:18)

95-4: 147.450 (4.975 faster than Eddy)


Would be faster if I could get Eddy's speedrun ending at the end.
Last edited by Raif on 2015.09.04 (18:36), edited 3 times in total.

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Postby aids » 2015.09.04 (17:28)

You guys are wizards.
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Postby EddyMataGallos » 2015.09.04 (19:36)

Woah, awesome. To get that ending I presume you have to get a little bit higher than the switch.
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Impressive flag by ska -|- N2High - My software for N2.0 -|- Awesome sig by Hendor
About me & Stats (Spoiler)

Hi, im Eddy, a Spanish highscorer and current Grandmaster of N. I've been playing N since 2006, I beat it on the 8th September 2008, and NReality later too. Started intermittently highscoring Metanet in 2010, although serious highscoring started in late 2011.

Current Stats
• Completed N on 8th Sept. 2008
• Completed NReality on 24th Dec. 2010
0th Place on Metanet 0th Rankings with 443 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Top20 Rankings with 599 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Top10 Rankings with 599 Scores.
1st Place on Metanet Top5 Rankings with 595 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Level 0th Rankings with 361 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Episode 0th Rankings with 82 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Total Level Score: 72142.900 (20:02:22.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Episode Score: 35669.900 (09:54:29.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Point Rankings with 11669 Points.
0th Place in NReality 0th Rankings with 235 0ths.
0th Place for a grand total of 676 Total 0ths.
• Winner of some contests (BUST, 100, 9000, Bounty Hunters, SOAST) and of some rounds of some contests (ROPP, NErratic, Red Ball, NReality Team Arena)

{Info as of 01/Feb/2015} The info may be outdated.

Achievements
• 6th highscorer to reach 100 Metanet 0ths
• 4th highscorer to reach 200 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 300 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 400 Metanet 0ths
• 8th ever Grandmaster
• 2nd* highscorer to reach 599 top-20 Scores
• 1st highscorer to reach 599 top-10 Scores
• 10th highscorer to reach 70k Level Score
• 5th highscorer to reach 71k Level Score
• 2nd highscorer to reach 71.5k Level Score
• 1st highscorer to reach 72k Level Score

Relevant Dates
• First 0th: 31-3 on 04/Oct/10
• Reached 100 Metanet 0ths on 25/Feb/12
• Reached 200 Metanet 0ths on 30/Sep/12
• Reached 300 Metanet 0ths on 16/Mar/13
• Reached 400 Metanet 0ths on 04/Sept/14
• Reached highest amount of 0ths on Jan/2013
• Became the Grandmaster on 12/Apr/2012
• Reached 70k Level Score on 25/Dec/11
• Reached 71k Level Score on 13/Jan/11
• Reached 71.5k Level Score on 01/Aug/12
• Reached 72k Level Score on 04/Jul/14
• Completed N 1.4 on 08/Sept/08
• Completed NReality on 24/Dec/10
• Reached 100 NReality 0ths on Oct/2011
• Reached 200 NReality 0ths on Nov/2011
• Reached 100 Top-20 Scores on Aug/10
• Reached 200 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 300 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 400 Top-20 Scores on Dec/11
• Reached 500 Top-20 Scores on Jan/12
• Reached 599 Top-20 Scores on 04/Apr/12
• Reached 599 Top-10 Scores on 18/Nov/12

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Postby jp27ace » 2015.09.05 (11:36)

Raif wrote:95-4: 147.450 (4.975 faster than Eddy)


Would be faster if I could get Eddy's speedrun ending at the end.


Very nice! Now lets see how much we can close that gap realtime, saved .800 to start.
It's a pretty poor run but I'll wait to see what Eddy comes up with before I try to improve it.
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Postby xaelar » 2015.09.05 (11:45)

jp27ace wrote:
Raif wrote:95-4: 147.450 (4.975 faster than Eddy)


Would be faster if I could get Eddy's speedrun ending at the end.


Very nice! Now lets see how much we can close that gap realtime, saved .800 to start.
It's a pretty poor run but I'll wait to see what Eddy comes up with before I try to improve it.


Holy ****! That looks difficult.
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Postby TheRealOne » 2015.09.07 (00:51)

xaelar wrote:
jp27ace wrote:
Raif wrote:95-4: 147.450 (4.975 faster than Eddy)


Would be faster if I could get Eddy's speedrun ending at the end.


Very nice! Now lets see how much we can close that gap realtime, saved .800 to start.
It's a pretty poor run but I'll wait to see what Eddy comes up with before I try to improve it.


Holy ****! That looks difficult.


Nice Raif! That is a hell of a run. The timing on the double jump up the middle slop is great because of the drone. You just sneak right ahead of it to finish out the run.

jp, that route is nice and that switch grab around the drone is crazy, that had to be a run killer constantly before your 0thed. Nice job.
<@Izzy> Holy balls, sweet run.
<@gloomp> Holy sweet, balls run.
<@Izzy> Sweet, balls run holy.
<@gloomp> Run sweet, balls holy.
<@Izzy> Sweet run, ballsy hole.
<@gloomp> All's sweet, holeb run.
<@Izzy> Ballsy nun, sweet mole.
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Postby TheRealOne » 2015.09.08 (17:27)

20-4 SR:


I was bored and made a crappy FBF run of this route. The whole run is sloppy, but I just wanted to experiment with the corner jump ending rather than the double jump on the left 4tile/wall.
<@Izzy> Holy balls, sweet run.
<@gloomp> Holy sweet, balls run.
<@Izzy> Sweet, balls run holy.
<@gloomp> Run sweet, balls holy.
<@Izzy> Sweet run, ballsy hole.
<@gloomp> All's sweet, holeb run.
<@Izzy> Ballsy nun, sweet mole.
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Postby EddyMataGallos » 2015.09.08 (19:26)

Nice innov over there, I'm interested in the fact you used the previous slope to do the double jump, which saved a lot.
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Impressive flag by ska -|- N2High - My software for N2.0 -|- Awesome sig by Hendor

About me & Stats (Spoiler)

Hi, im Eddy, a Spanish highscorer and current Grandmaster of N. I've been playing N since 2006, I beat it on the 8th September 2008, and NReality later too. Started intermittently highscoring Metanet in 2010, although serious highscoring started in late 2011.

Current Stats
• Completed N on 8th Sept. 2008
• Completed NReality on 24th Dec. 2010
0th Place on Metanet 0th Rankings with 443 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Top20 Rankings with 599 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Top10 Rankings with 599 Scores.
1st Place on Metanet Top5 Rankings with 595 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Level 0th Rankings with 361 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Episode 0th Rankings with 82 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Total Level Score: 72142.900 (20:02:22.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Episode Score: 35669.900 (09:54:29.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Point Rankings with 11669 Points.
0th Place in NReality 0th Rankings with 235 0ths.
0th Place for a grand total of 676 Total 0ths.
• Winner of some contests (BUST, 100, 9000, Bounty Hunters, SOAST) and of some rounds of some contests (ROPP, NErratic, Red Ball, NReality Team Arena)

{Info as of 01/Feb/2015} The info may be outdated.

Achievements
• 6th highscorer to reach 100 Metanet 0ths
• 4th highscorer to reach 200 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 300 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 400 Metanet 0ths
• 8th ever Grandmaster
• 2nd* highscorer to reach 599 top-20 Scores
• 1st highscorer to reach 599 top-10 Scores
• 10th highscorer to reach 70k Level Score
• 5th highscorer to reach 71k Level Score
• 2nd highscorer to reach 71.5k Level Score
• 1st highscorer to reach 72k Level Score

Relevant Dates
• First 0th: 31-3 on 04/Oct/10
• Reached 100 Metanet 0ths on 25/Feb/12
• Reached 200 Metanet 0ths on 30/Sep/12
• Reached 300 Metanet 0ths on 16/Mar/13
• Reached 400 Metanet 0ths on 04/Sept/14
• Reached highest amount of 0ths on Jan/2013
• Became the Grandmaster on 12/Apr/2012
• Reached 70k Level Score on 25/Dec/11
• Reached 71k Level Score on 13/Jan/11
• Reached 71.5k Level Score on 01/Aug/12
• Reached 72k Level Score on 04/Jul/14
• Completed N 1.4 on 08/Sept/08
• Completed NReality on 24/Dec/10
• Reached 100 NReality 0ths on Oct/2011
• Reached 200 NReality 0ths on Nov/2011
• Reached 100 Top-20 Scores on Aug/10
• Reached 200 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 300 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 400 Top-20 Scores on Dec/11
• Reached 500 Top-20 Scores on Jan/12
• Reached 599 Top-20 Scores on 04/Apr/12
• Reached 599 Top-10 Scores on 18/Nov/12



Deds & Images (Spoiler)

Thanks to ska for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to BluePretzel for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to da_guru for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this full episode to me!: 00-0 00-100-2 00-3 00-4
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this mappack to me
Thanks to zoasBE for partially dedicating this map to me
Thanks to VODKALOVER for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to runningninja for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for partially dedicating this map to me
Thanks to trance for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to llabesab for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to the23 for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Traveleravi for dedicating this map to me
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Thanks to Armaghan_Ali for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Armaghan_Ali for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to RandomDigits/SpartaX18 for dedicating this map to me
Sorry if Im missing any ded.

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Postby TheRealOne » 2015.09.09 (00:22)

EddyMataGallos wrote:Nice innov over there, I'm interested in the fact you used the previous slope to do the double jump, which saved a lot.


Yeah, doing the closer 4-tile requires a faster double and must be a JNJ double.

Here is a bit better run. Ending still sucked.

20-4 SR 339f
<@Izzy> Holy balls, sweet run.
<@gloomp> Holy sweet, balls run.
<@Izzy> Sweet, balls run holy.
<@gloomp> Run sweet, balls holy.
<@Izzy> Sweet run, ballsy hole.
<@gloomp> All's sweet, holeb run.
<@Izzy> Ballsy nun, sweet mole.
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Postby shomman » 2015.12.08 (22:58)

How I imagine Raif when he makes his MBD's: https://youtu.be/3vAnuBtyEYE?t=6
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Postby EddyMataGallos » 2015.12.09 (20:13)

Ahahahah damn, that's a pretty good one.
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Impressive flag by ska -|- N2High - My software for N2.0 -|- Awesome sig by Hendor

About me & Stats (Spoiler)

Hi, im Eddy, a Spanish highscorer and current Grandmaster of N. I've been playing N since 2006, I beat it on the 8th September 2008, and NReality later too. Started intermittently highscoring Metanet in 2010, although serious highscoring started in late 2011.

Current Stats
• Completed N on 8th Sept. 2008
• Completed NReality on 24th Dec. 2010
0th Place on Metanet 0th Rankings with 443 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Top20 Rankings with 599 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Top10 Rankings with 599 Scores.
1st Place on Metanet Top5 Rankings with 595 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Level 0th Rankings with 361 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Episode 0th Rankings with 82 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Total Level Score: 72142.900 (20:02:22.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Episode Score: 35669.900 (09:54:29.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Point Rankings with 11669 Points.
0th Place in NReality 0th Rankings with 235 0ths.
0th Place for a grand total of 676 Total 0ths.
• Winner of some contests (BUST, 100, 9000, Bounty Hunters, SOAST) and of some rounds of some contests (ROPP, NErratic, Red Ball, NReality Team Arena)

{Info as of 01/Feb/2015} The info may be outdated.

Achievements
• 6th highscorer to reach 100 Metanet 0ths
• 4th highscorer to reach 200 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 300 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 400 Metanet 0ths
• 8th ever Grandmaster
• 2nd* highscorer to reach 599 top-20 Scores
• 1st highscorer to reach 599 top-10 Scores
• 10th highscorer to reach 70k Level Score
• 5th highscorer to reach 71k Level Score
• 2nd highscorer to reach 71.5k Level Score
• 1st highscorer to reach 72k Level Score

Relevant Dates
• First 0th: 31-3 on 04/Oct/10
• Reached 100 Metanet 0ths on 25/Feb/12
• Reached 200 Metanet 0ths on 30/Sep/12
• Reached 300 Metanet 0ths on 16/Mar/13
• Reached 400 Metanet 0ths on 04/Sept/14
• Reached highest amount of 0ths on Jan/2013
• Became the Grandmaster on 12/Apr/2012
• Reached 70k Level Score on 25/Dec/11
• Reached 71k Level Score on 13/Jan/11
• Reached 71.5k Level Score on 01/Aug/12
• Reached 72k Level Score on 04/Jul/14
• Completed N 1.4 on 08/Sept/08
• Completed NReality on 24/Dec/10
• Reached 100 NReality 0ths on Oct/2011
• Reached 200 NReality 0ths on Nov/2011
• Reached 100 Top-20 Scores on Aug/10
• Reached 200 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 300 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 400 Top-20 Scores on Dec/11
• Reached 500 Top-20 Scores on Jan/12
• Reached 599 Top-20 Scores on 04/Apr/12
• Reached 599 Top-10 Scores on 18/Nov/12



Deds & Images (Spoiler)

Thanks to ska for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to BluePretzel for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to da_guru for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this full episode to me!: 00-0 00-100-2 00-3 00-4
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this mappack to me
Thanks to zoasBE for partially dedicating this map to me
Thanks to VODKALOVER for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to runningninja for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for partially dedicating this map to me
Thanks to trance for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to llabesab for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to the23 for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Traveleravi for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to 123leonidas321 for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to the23 for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Uniden for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Uniden for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Ors_II for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Sunset for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to blue_rocks for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Leonhard for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to blue_rocks for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Daggafork for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to VODKALOVER for dedicating this map to me
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Thanks to Armaghan_Ali for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to RandomDigits/SpartaX18 for dedicating this map to me
Sorry if Im missing any ded.

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Postby zapkt » 2016.07.14 (15:21)

Has anyone ever thought about using more advanced techniques to produce N TAS? I'm thinking about basic machine learning methods. There are some existing tools (such as this one for NES games, even though it's not speedrun-oriented). N levels are pretty simple: you need to get to the door with the highest possible time. Opening doors and avoiding traps requires some planning that may be quite hard to handle, though.
The fact that the game is coded in flash makes me quite reluctant to work on this... I can't even run the game on Linux (but I haven't tried much). (Edit: why didn't I simply try wine before?)

Also, dropping a ninja on a bounceblock and bruteforcing all possible inputs may reveal some crazy unknown bounceblock jumps (triple-then-side-jump? who knows). It must be easy to automate if you have a program run different sessions and check for the ninja's maximum speed or position in each session.

I guess Unreality knows a lot about how to hack N to do such stuff

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Postby ska » 2016.07.14 (18:17)

Zapkt! Long time no see!

To answer your interesting question, I, and I'm sure others on this forum, have considered machine-learning algorithms; in fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this has been posted before. I, too, am aware of the so-called machine-learning techniques employed to complete Super Mario Bros. One of the big pitfalls I forsee with N is its non-linearity. Super Mario Bros. is a good candidate for brute-force learning because of its simplistic goal. N has a number of waypoints and complications that would make an AI struggle to complete all but the most trivial of levels.

Consider the following: take a level that has a current speedrun 0th of 500 frames. Now imagine the possibilities after a single frame input; there are 4: left, right, jump, nothing. After 20 frames, there are already more than a trillion possible states; after just 5 more inputs, the possibilities are more than a quadrillion. In just 3.5 seconds, you'd have more possible states than there are atoms in th entire known universe, according to my calculations. Short of advanced parallel quantum computing, such a feat seems impossible. I estimate that there are about as many possible chess positions as there are states in N after just five seconds, and chess isn't getting solved any time soon. There may be heuristics, like in chess, which could be used in tandem with brute-force calculation, but this is purely hypothetical, since my programming experience is very limited.

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Postby EddyMataGallos » 2016.07.14 (22:45)

I stumbled across this topic some time ago, but I think N might too complex for that, specially compared to e.g. mario, so it would have to be very cleverly coded to make it plausible with today's computing power. I'd friggin' love to see it though, and I'm noone to talk about computing anyways as it's just a hobby for me so I hope to be wrong.
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Impressive flag by ska -|- N2High - My software for N2.0 -|- Awesome sig by Hendor

About me & Stats (Spoiler)

Hi, im Eddy, a Spanish highscorer and current Grandmaster of N. I've been playing N since 2006, I beat it on the 8th September 2008, and NReality later too. Started intermittently highscoring Metanet in 2010, although serious highscoring started in late 2011.

Current Stats
• Completed N on 8th Sept. 2008
• Completed NReality on 24th Dec. 2010
0th Place on Metanet 0th Rankings with 443 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Top20 Rankings with 599 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Top10 Rankings with 599 Scores.
1st Place on Metanet Top5 Rankings with 595 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Level 0th Rankings with 361 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Episode 0th Rankings with 82 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Total Level Score: 72142.900 (20:02:22.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Episode Score: 35669.900 (09:54:29.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Point Rankings with 11669 Points.
0th Place in NReality 0th Rankings with 235 0ths.
0th Place for a grand total of 676 Total 0ths.
• Winner of some contests (BUST, 100, 9000, Bounty Hunters, SOAST) and of some rounds of some contests (ROPP, NErratic, Red Ball, NReality Team Arena)

{Info as of 01/Feb/2015} The info may be outdated.

Achievements
• 6th highscorer to reach 100 Metanet 0ths
• 4th highscorer to reach 200 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 300 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 400 Metanet 0ths
• 8th ever Grandmaster
• 2nd* highscorer to reach 599 top-20 Scores
• 1st highscorer to reach 599 top-10 Scores
• 10th highscorer to reach 70k Level Score
• 5th highscorer to reach 71k Level Score
• 2nd highscorer to reach 71.5k Level Score
• 1st highscorer to reach 72k Level Score

Relevant Dates
• First 0th: 31-3 on 04/Oct/10
• Reached 100 Metanet 0ths on 25/Feb/12
• Reached 200 Metanet 0ths on 30/Sep/12
• Reached 300 Metanet 0ths on 16/Mar/13
• Reached 400 Metanet 0ths on 04/Sept/14
• Reached highest amount of 0ths on Jan/2013
• Became the Grandmaster on 12/Apr/2012
• Reached 70k Level Score on 25/Dec/11
• Reached 71k Level Score on 13/Jan/11
• Reached 71.5k Level Score on 01/Aug/12
• Reached 72k Level Score on 04/Jul/14
• Completed N 1.4 on 08/Sept/08
• Completed NReality on 24/Dec/10
• Reached 100 NReality 0ths on Oct/2011
• Reached 200 NReality 0ths on Nov/2011
• Reached 100 Top-20 Scores on Aug/10
• Reached 200 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 300 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 400 Top-20 Scores on Dec/11
• Reached 500 Top-20 Scores on Jan/12
• Reached 599 Top-20 Scores on 04/Apr/12
• Reached 599 Top-10 Scores on 18/Nov/12



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Postby ska » 2016.07.15 (08:56)

EddyMataGallos wrote:I stumbled across this topic some time ago, but I think N might too complex for that, specially compared to e.g. mario, so it would have to be very cleverly coded to make it plausible with today's computing power. I'd friggin' love to see it though, and I'm noone to talk about computing anyways as it's just a hobby for me so I hope to be wrong.

Yeah, I was pretty sure I had, too, but not 100%. A link to a previous discussion about this would be interesting...

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Postby zapkt » 2016.07.15 (11:33)

ska wrote:Consider the following: take a level that has a current speedrun 0th of 500 frames. Now imagine the possibilities after a single frame input; there are 4: left, right, jump, nothing. After 20 frames, there are already more than a trillion possible states; after just 5 more inputs, the possibilities are more than a quadrillion. In just 3.5 seconds, you'd have more possible states than there are atoms in th entire known universe, according to my calculations. Short of advanced parallel quantum computing, such a feat seems impossible. I estimate that there are about as many possible chess positions as there are states in N after just five seconds, and chess isn't getting solved any time soon. There may be heuristics, like in chess, which could be used in tandem with brute-force calculation, but this is purely hypothetical, since my programming experience is very limited.


That's what machine learning is all about: it's basically statistics to try to guess what the most probable best outcome can be without testing all possibilities. Look: Google just happened to write a software able to beat the top-human player at go, a game which is all about combinatorial explosion of possibilities (each step does not have just 4 possibilities, but over 300). Besides, there's an issue in your calculation: don't forget that some inputs have equal effects in some contexts, which reduces the number of possibilities. For instance, if you just hit a bumper, pressing jump or nothing will yield the same result.

When I think about it, there are several use case for automating N, some of which are easier to reach with ML. Trying to get an IA to finish a level all by itself will indeed be a pain because it requires a lot of planning and understanding the mechanisms of the game (the author of the mario IA spent a huge time trying to get mario to go back a few steps to get out of a trap - so imagine trying to get N to understand how to open doors). However, trying to improve a run is a different story and seems way easier to me.
Here's a simple algorithm that may produce some results:

Code: Select all

Input: best 0th/MBD run of a level
At each frame, try to bruteforce possible inputs for a few frames, until you find a solution which transports N to the same (x;y) position as the current best solution in a shortest time, or with a bigger speed


Of course this is a first draw which requires more thinking to be usable, but you see the idea (bigger speed is not always better, and deciding what "a few frames" means is tricky, as looking at a low number of frames in the future may lead N to unavoidable death).
Such an algorithm would focus on improving existing runs through local optimizations. Finding new route is incredibly complex and probably requires actual intelligence (I really doubt a random search would produce anything good).

A first step to such automating could be a graphical tool where users could indicate a position where the ninja should be in a few frame, and the tool would automate trying the different possibilities, which would pretty much be an automation of what MBD writers currently do.

MBD writers, how do you currently do? Do you have some kind of tool more advanced that N + a text editor? A (non-graphical) tool taking level+demo data as input and returning position, speed, time and death-situation of the ninja by executing a frame of the game without speed restriction would be a huge help. I don't know how hard that is to do, as I never attempted to reverse the game. Does Unreality have any idea?

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Postby ska » 2016.07.19 (10:39)

zapkt wrote:
ska wrote:Consider the following: take a level that has a current speedrun 0th of 500 frames. Now imagine the possibilities after a single frame input; there are 4: left, right, jump, nothing. After 20 frames, there are already more than a trillion possible states; after just 5 more inputs, the possibilities are more than a quadrillion. In just 3.5 seconds, you'd have more possible states than there are atoms in th entire known universe, according to my calculations. Short of advanced parallel quantum computing, such a feat seems impossible. I estimate that there are about as many possible chess positions as there are states in N after just five seconds, and chess isn't getting solved any time soon. There may be heuristics, like in chess, which could be used in tandem with brute-force calculation, but this is purely hypothetical, since my programming experience is very limited.


That's what machine learning is all about: it's basically statistics to try to guess what the most probable best outcome can be without testing all possibilities. Look: Google just happened to write a software able to beat the top-human player at go, a game which is all about combinatorial explosion of possibilities (each step does not have just 4 possibilities, but over 300). Besides, there's an issue in your calculation: don't forget that some inputs have equal effects in some contexts, which reduces the number of possibilities. For instance, if you just hit a bumper, pressing jump or nothing will yield the same result.

When I think about it, there are several use case for automating N, some of which are easier to reach with ML. Trying to get an IA to finish a level all by itself will indeed be a pain because it requires a lot of planning and understanding the mechanisms of the game (the author of the mario IA spent a huge time trying to get mario to go back a few steps to get out of a trap - so imagine trying to get N to understand how to open doors). However, trying to improve a run is a different story and seems way easier to me.
Here's a simple algorithm that may produce some results:

Code: Select all

Input: best 0th/MBD run of a level
At each frame, try to bruteforce possible inputs for a few frames, until you find a solution which transports N to the same (x;y) position as the current best solution in a shortest time, or with a bigger speed


Of course this is a first draw which requires more thinking to be usable, but you see the idea (bigger speed is not always better, and deciding what "a few frames" means is tricky, as looking at a low number of frames in the future may lead N to unavoidable death).
Such an algorithm would focus on improving existing runs through local optimizations. Finding new route is incredibly complex and probably requires actual intelligence (I really doubt a random search would produce anything good).

A first step to such automating could be a graphical tool where users could indicate a position where the ninja should be in a few frame, and the tool would automate trying the different possibilities, which would pretty much be an automation of what MBD writers currently do.

MBD writers, how do you currently do? Do you have some kind of tool more advanced that N + a text editor? A (non-graphical) tool taking level+demo data as input and returning position, speed, time and death-situation of the ninja by executing a frame of the game without speed restriction would be a huge help. I don't know how hard that is to do, as I never attempted to reverse the game. Does Unreality have any idea?

Well, I was well aware that there would be certain positions where pressing jump or holding nothing would yield no difference, but the difference on the game's exponential factor is essentially negligible. Your suggestion about brute-forcing existing MBD runs does, however, strike me as plausible, especially with your suggestion to try tree attempts with x,y comparisons. N has so many nuanced manoeuvres, though, which might be a stumbling block. Still, I can't see why a well-written program couldn't shave off a few frames here or there from a pre-existing run.

P.S. The last time I checked, Raif, Eddy (and maybe TRO) used Excel to chart inputs.

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Postby EddyMataGallos » 2016.07.19 (18:49)

Yeah we use a spreadsheet to specify the keys pressed in each frame of a 7 frame chunk and it calculates the resulting code for that chunk. I attach the spreadsheet I use, it only has 25 chunks because I rarely require to go back and modify something more than 25 chunks behind. I also attach the spreadsheet that breaks down how this values are calculated (it's not necessary, just for informative purposes).

As far as I'm aware this is the highest technology anyone has ever used for MBD'ing, although I'd have to ask Raif for that.
Attachments
N Demo Code Generator.xls
(61.5 KiB) Downloaded 58 times
Demo code.xls
(35.5 KiB) Downloaded 58 times
ImageImage
Impressive flag by ska -|- N2High - My software for N2.0 -|- Awesome sig by Hendor

About me & Stats (Spoiler)

Hi, im Eddy, a Spanish highscorer and current Grandmaster of N. I've been playing N since 2006, I beat it on the 8th September 2008, and NReality later too. Started intermittently highscoring Metanet in 2010, although serious highscoring started in late 2011.

Current Stats
• Completed N on 8th Sept. 2008
• Completed NReality on 24th Dec. 2010
0th Place on Metanet 0th Rankings with 443 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Top20 Rankings with 599 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Top10 Rankings with 599 Scores.
1st Place on Metanet Top5 Rankings with 595 Scores.
0th Place on Metanet Level 0th Rankings with 361 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Episode 0th Rankings with 82 0ths.
0th Place on Metanet Total Level Score: 72142.900 (20:02:22.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Episode Score: 35669.900 (09:54:29.900)
0th Place on Metanet Total Point Rankings with 11669 Points.
0th Place in NReality 0th Rankings with 235 0ths.
0th Place for a grand total of 676 Total 0ths.
• Winner of some contests (BUST, 100, 9000, Bounty Hunters, SOAST) and of some rounds of some contests (ROPP, NErratic, Red Ball, NReality Team Arena)

{Info as of 01/Feb/2015} The info may be outdated.

Achievements
• 6th highscorer to reach 100 Metanet 0ths
• 4th highscorer to reach 200 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 300 Metanet 0ths
• 1st and only highscorer to reach 400 Metanet 0ths
• 8th ever Grandmaster
• 2nd* highscorer to reach 599 top-20 Scores
• 1st highscorer to reach 599 top-10 Scores
• 10th highscorer to reach 70k Level Score
• 5th highscorer to reach 71k Level Score
• 2nd highscorer to reach 71.5k Level Score
• 1st highscorer to reach 72k Level Score

Relevant Dates
• First 0th: 31-3 on 04/Oct/10
• Reached 100 Metanet 0ths on 25/Feb/12
• Reached 200 Metanet 0ths on 30/Sep/12
• Reached 300 Metanet 0ths on 16/Mar/13
• Reached 400 Metanet 0ths on 04/Sept/14
• Reached highest amount of 0ths on Jan/2013
• Became the Grandmaster on 12/Apr/2012
• Reached 70k Level Score on 25/Dec/11
• Reached 71k Level Score on 13/Jan/11
• Reached 71.5k Level Score on 01/Aug/12
• Reached 72k Level Score on 04/Jul/14
• Completed N 1.4 on 08/Sept/08
• Completed NReality on 24/Dec/10
• Reached 100 NReality 0ths on Oct/2011
• Reached 200 NReality 0ths on Nov/2011
• Reached 100 Top-20 Scores on Aug/10
• Reached 200 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 300 Top-20 Scores on Nov/11
• Reached 400 Top-20 Scores on Dec/11
• Reached 500 Top-20 Scores on Jan/12
• Reached 599 Top-20 Scores on 04/Apr/12
• Reached 599 Top-10 Scores on 18/Nov/12



Deds & Images (Spoiler)

Thanks to ska for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to BluePretzel for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to da_guru for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this full episode to me!: 00-0 00-100-2 00-3 00-4
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this mappack to me
Thanks to zoasBE for partially dedicating this map to me
Thanks to VODKALOVER for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to runningninja for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for partially dedicating this map to me
Thanks to trance for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to zoasBE for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to llabesab for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to the23 for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Traveleravi for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to 123leonidas321 for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to the23 for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Uniden for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Uniden for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Ors_II for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Sunset for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to blue_rocks for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Leonhard for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to blue_rocks for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Daggafork for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to VODKALOVER for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to blue_rocks for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to blue_rocks for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Armaghan_Ali for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Armaghan_Ali for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to Armaghan_Ali for dedicating this map to me
Thanks to RandomDigits/SpartaX18 for dedicating this map to me
Sorry if Im missing any ded.

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Postby jp27ace » 2016.07.19 (22:41)

Here's the spreadsheet I used for making my MBDs.
It has a section for generating a 7 frame chunk of your choosing, as well as handy buttons for commonly used chunks and copying/deleting.
I had a better version but its been lost somewhere, this was the latest one I could find.
Hopefully the macros work on your versions of Excel.
Attachments
nmbd.xlsm
(74.81 KiB) Downloaded 56 times
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