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Postby blue_tetris » 2008.11.28 (01:12)

Wait, what?

Why am I on those quotes?
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Postby a happy song » 2008.11.28 (01:19)

I cut out the wrong [quote=xxx], my bad.

*fixed*
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Postby SlappyMcGee » 2008.11.28 (06:09)

atob wrote:
SlappyMcGee wrote:Now, let it be known that Bob Kane never intended Batman to become very dark. Bob Kane wrote a goofy Batman, and no amount of censorship was the reason for his vision. You take a trip around Superdickery and you try and tell me that he intended for a serious Batman.
You've somehow been misinformed. Do some research and you'll find all you need to know about Batman's intended and darker origins.
SlappyMcGee wrote:First of all, he is by no means the darkest character in mainstream comics, as the Vertigo imprint will attest to. Second of all, his origin story is actually -less- tragic than say, Spider-man. And without that origin story, there isn't much we know about Bruce Wayne.
Having your parents gunned down in front of you and that event setting in motion a never ending vendetta on crime is less tragic than your uncle being killed by the person you failed to capture? I'm not sure I can agree.

And Batman being on of the darkest and most dangerous characters in the DC universe has been explored on many occasions, using one reference point to counter this fact is a little shallow.

You've clearly not done a lot of research here, your ideas of the characters origins and intents of the writers and the history of the development are flawed. I'm not going to argue against this any more, the information is out there if you want to discover it.


Here's an example, taken from the wiki. Key points are in bold. We can see here the removal of the dark origins into a lighter more fantasy based reality that continued for some time. The origins, however, were seeded in a much darker tone and this is what Nolan's TDK draws much of its inspiration from.
The first Batman story, "The Case of the Chemical Syndicate," was published in Detective Comics #27 (May 1939). Finger said, "Batman was originally written in the style of the pulps",and this influence was evident with Batman showing little remorse over killing or maiming criminals and was not above using firearms. Batman proved a hit character, and he received his own solo title in 1940, while continuing to star in Detective Comics. By that time, National was the top-selling and most influential publisher in the industry; Batman and the company's other major hero, Superman, were the cornerstones of the company's success. The two characters were featured side-by-side as the stars of World's Finest Comics, which was originally titled World's Best Comics when it debuted in fall 1940. Creators including Jerry Robinson and Dick Sprang also worked on the strips during this period.

Over the course of the first few Batman strips elements were added to the character and the artistic depiction of Batman evolved. Kane noted that within six issues he drew the character's jawline more pronounced, and lengthened the ears on the costume. "About a year later he was almost the full figure, my mature Batman," Kane said. Batman's characteristic utility belt was introduced in Detective Comics #29 (July 1939), followed by the boomerang-like batarang and the first bat-themed vehicle in #31 (Sept. 1939). The character's origin was revealed in #33 (Nov. 1939), unfolding in a two-page story that establishes the brooding persona of Batman, a character driven by the loss of his parents. Written by Finger, it depicts a young Bruce Wayne witnessing the death of his parents as part of a street robbery. Days later, at their grave, the child vows that "by the spirits of my parents avenge their deaths by spending the rest of my life warring on all criminals".

The early, pulp-inflected portrayal of Batman started to soften in Detective Comics #38 (April 1940) with the introduction of Robin, Batman's kid sidekick. Robin was introduced, based on Finger's suggestion Batman needed a "Watson" with whom Batman could talk. Sales nearly doubled, despite Kane's preference for a solo Batman, and it sparked a proliferation of "kid sidekicks". The first issue of the solo spin-off series Batman was notable not only for introducing two of his most persistent antagonists, the Joker and Catwoman, but for a story in which Batman shoots some monstrous giants to death. That story prompted editor Whitney Ellsworth to decree that the character could no longer kill or use a gun.

By 1942, the writers and artists behind the Batman comics had established most of the basic elements of the Batman mythos. In the years following World War II, DC Comics "adopted a postwar editorial direction that increasingly de-emphasized social commentary in favor of lighthearted juvenile fantasy." The impact of this editorial approach was evident in Batman comics of the postwar period; removed from the "bleak and menacing world" of the strips of the early 1940s, Batman was instead portrayed as a respectable citizen and paternal figure that inhabited a "bright and colorful" environment.


First off, Spider-Man's story is tragic because he had a chance to stop the man who basically killed the only father he ever knew, and he didn't. Batman seems less tragic to me, at least, because he is in no way responsible for his parent's death. He was present, sure, and that's what two years of therapy and a healthy dose of medication will get rid of. Not a lifelong vengeance against crime.

Furthermore, you can cite Wikipedia all you like, but download a .cbr of one of the early Detective Comics. It is light-hearted. Pulp Fiction at the time was not about the exploration of character, but rather a fictional story that took place in a seedy underworld. There is no doubt about that. But having roots in pulp doesn't mean you're going to murder relentlessly. Although there was murder in the early comics, it wasn't taken seriously at all. If it were, we might have seen panels where Batman reflects on the fact that he killed someone. And nobody is saying that Batman has to be campy, but IMHO, he's more of a detective than damaged goods.

(The fact that Watson is brought up in your quote reinforces my idea of a detective that occasionally has to lay the beat-down.)

Anyways, your last post seemed like an attack on my character almost, so I will exit this argument before it gets to serious. Let me just close with a couple of things.

1) Don't tell me that I haven't done any research and then quote Wikipedia.
2) Don't even try to tell me that there is anything even close to being TDK in pre-WW2 Batman books. Hell, you can't even find anything close to TDK until after TDK with the new Brian Azzarello's Joker. (IF you haven't checked this book out, you definitely should. The guy from 100 Bullets takes Heath Ledger's Joker into some amazing situations.) This is -not- a faithful adaptation of Batman. It has no source for anything resembling this storyline, it is much darker than anything preceding it, and it is missing elements of a character that I have grown up with. Simple.
3) Not to PacificBlue specifically, but just as a general statement, no matter how apparently laughable my knowledge of the origins of Batman is, or how little I apparently know about this movie, I still gave it a favorable review. So, taking aside all of the Batman specific stuff I didn't like, and taking aside the cinematography that I thought was garbage during the action (But ace during the Gary Oldman scene at the end. Also, that rotating shot on the top of the building with Bats, Gordon and Eckhart? Genius.), and leaving out that I think Oldman, Caine, Eckhart and Freeman all turned in good performances but everything else for me was a dud (Batmanuel as the mayor of Gotham? Cheap.) I still gave it a favorable review. So, eat it. I'm done arguing my stance on the film.

Also, LV didn't like it very much.

:P

Anyways, apologies to atob for this brief tangential argument. :)
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Postby a happy song » 2008.11.28 (14:25)

SlappyMcGee wrote:he's more of a detective than damaged goods.
Just because it hadn't been fully explored yet, doesn't mean the intention wasn't there for the darker aspect. His appearance in detective comics was superficial in terms of character, his actual nature wasn't explored properly until the inception of this standalone in 1940 (and even then that exploration was a brief one)

I'm not denying Batman is a detective. Batman is obviously a detective.

It seems to me you're holding dear to the characterization you grew up with more than an understanding of the original intent for the character.
SlappyMcGee wrote:Anyways, your last post seemed like an attack on my character almost, so I will exit this argument before it gets to serious. Let me just close with a couple of things.
Not on your character man, I don't know you well enough for that. It was an attack on your knowledge of the origins of Batman which I find flawed. That's all. sorry if it came off any other way.
SlappyMcGee wrote: 1) Don't tell me that I haven't done any research and then quote Wikipedia.
Two things:

1) I stated just before I posted the wiki quote that 'the information is out there if you want to discover it'. I figured you'd know what a .cbr was, where essays could be found with original citations, etc... I only posted the wiki as it was a fast find that clarified my point enough (I had hoped) for you to consider further research worthwhile.

2) When considering the absolute pedantic and feverish nature of the comic book geek, the wiki is a useful and accurate tool. Those passionate about such subjects wouldn't let their pages represent anything other than the what's entirely accurate about their beloved comic. It's lazy, sure, but the information is valid.
SlappyMcGee wrote: 2) Don't even try to tell me that there is anything even close to being TDK in pre-WW2 Batman books.
This is the simplicity of it:

Batman, as originally conceived by Bob Kane back in the 1930s, was anything but camp or humourous. He was an embittered vigilante; the Dark Knight Returns graphic novel revived this interpretation, after decades of child-friendly versions. This initial intent was demoralized by the war, and a more light-hearted direction was chosen. This is very well known among those who share a deeper love of the origins of this character.
SlappyMcGee wrote: I'm done arguing my stance on the film.
I'm arguing with your poor knowledge of the origins of the character. Feel free to dislike the movie all you want, I can suggest reasons for you not to but I won't argue any further than that.
SlappyMcGee wrote: Also, LV didn't like it very much.
Well this guy I know, Tim, loved the movie as much as I did. So there!
SlappyMcGee wrote: Anyways, apologies to atob for this brief tangential argument. :)
None needed, it's all good fun :)
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Postby blue_tetris » 2008.11.29 (00:37)

atob wrote:
SlappyMcGee wrote: Also, LV didn't like it very much.
Well this guy I know, Tim, loved the movie as much as I did. So there!
Well, he doesn't work on Film Roll.



Also, atob is an unmitigated cock. He attacks Slappy McGee and then demands the last word after Slappy's defense. It's a poor show on all fronts and I'm disappointed.
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Postby a happy song » 2008.11.29 (01:01)

blue_tetris wrote:Also, atob is an unmitigated cock. He attacks Slappy McGee and then demands the last word after Slappy's defense. It's a poor show on all fronts and I'm disappointed.
Wow. I'm not quite sure what to say...

I judged Slappy's knowledge of a particular aspect of comic history, not his character. I don't know slappy. He seems like a perfectly lovely guy, though.

Slappy's 'last word' left some parts I felt like responding to, he's more than free to respond further if he desires. I wasn't aware there was a cut off point with these things.

The part about my friend was meant in good jest, it was playful. Just as playful as Salppy's mentioning of LV and then the tongue emote. I thought we understood that.

That was a rather vicious little outburst b_t, even for you :(
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Postby a happy song » 2008.11.29 (18:19)

So I just get a completely baseless and particularly nasty insult and then no response at all?

I'm disappointed the community lets b_t get away with this kind of malicious behaviour and still champions him as some kind of genius hero.
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Postby blue_tetris » 2008.11.29 (23:49)

atob wrote:So I just get a completely baseless and particularly nasty insult and then no response at all?

I'm disappointed the community lets b_t get away with this kind of malicious behaviour and still champions him as some kind of genius hero.
I don't want to keep this going. You do. I don't know if you want the last word or a fight. Either way, I don't care to respond any more.
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Postby a happy song » 2008.11.30 (17:46)

I think it's clear to everyone that I didn't deserve the attentions of that malicious little creature you harbour, my responses aren't attempts to feed it no matter how you twist my intent.

And this certainly isn't an attempt at anything as petty as grasping for last words or raising my fists, I'm trying very hard to understand why you feel the need to be so hateful toward people at times. Whenever I see this kind of behaviour on NUMA, I disable accounts, and rightly so. I think it's a shame you're indestructible in that regard and free to let your creature run unchecked.

I'm ashamed to be part of a community that allows its leaders to get away with what amounts to little more than bullying.
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Postby SlappyMcGee » 2008.12.01 (00:49)

atob wrote:I think it's clear to everyone that I didn't deserve the attentions of that malicious little creature you harbour, my responses aren't attempts to feed it no matter how you twist my intent.

And this certainly isn't an attempt at anything as petty as grasping for last words or raising my fists, I'm trying very hard to understand why you feel the need to be so hateful toward people at times. Whenever I see this kind of behaviour on NUMA, I disable accounts, and rightly so. I think it's a shame you're indestructible in that regard and free to let your creature run unchecked.

I'm ashamed to be part of a community that allows its leaders to get away with what amounts to little more than bullying.

I'm ashamed to be part of a community that can't stay on point or on topic. Take it to PMs, atob, or make your own thread.

Anyways, I'm going to update on a Mondays-Thursday schedule. This week, you can expect the long-awaited Wall-E, Empire Strikes Back, Die Hard with a Vengeance and I'll probably close it out with Robocop 3.

Meanwhile, continue to make suggestions. Generally speaking, I will get around to any suggestions posted here. That's what this area is for, not political revolution. :D
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Postby Condog » 2008.12.01 (02:01)

I would like to recommend Saw and Saw II for review. If you have the time and the patience, Saw III/IV/V, but imo, they were nowhere near as good as the first two.
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Postby 乳头的早餐谷物 » 2008.12.01 (03:21)

I for one enjoyed reading the argument.

I suggest L'Armée des ombres.
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