Hypocrisy, this community, and why it is important.

Discuss aspects of the community itself and talk about the people and ideas that make this place work.
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Postby Tunco » 2010.05.15 (19:05)

CoffeeFreak wrote:
Tunco wrote:Seems like the votes come from same IP are deleted and from the poll and we still win. Owned, squibbles.
You're missing the point here. The point isn't about whether we won or lost by cheating the system, squibbles here is trying to point out that we're bigger hypocrites than we think we are, by using this as a mere example.
No, I get the point, just pointing out that the 'problem' is solved and everyone knows there are always bigger hypocrisies (don't know the right word for that) in socially active (what?) communities. Not only this one, in reality too. But obviously we're too lazy to get our asses leaving our comfortable sofa.

(I don't know what I'm saying but I think I'm a bit right about my argument.)
Last edited by Tunco on 2010.05.23 (18:06), edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Universezero » 2010.05.15 (22:44)

squibbles wrote:My issue is that we're sending mixed messages to the newer members of the community.
I wasn't aware anyone cared about them. I certainly don't remember getting a fatherly raising through the community when I joined. The older members of this community may be many things, but they are definitely not role models.
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Postby Rose » 2010.05.16 (00:35)

and everyone knows there are always bigger hypocrisies (don't know the right word for that) in a socially active (what?) communities.
Do you not think we should strive to be better than those other communities?
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Postby bobaganuesh_2 » 2010.05.22 (21:18)

Manus Australis wrote:Using multiple browsers to place votes is not the same as making multiple accounts to place votes. Unless you specifically use one browser for one account.

Edit:
To further clarify, the intent is not similar and I think that is what we should truly be looking at. Although this analogy is a bit extreme, murder cases are always about what the intent of each party involved was. The definition of the intent of the murderer can determine whether they walk free (self-defense) or if they get life in prison (premeditated with a deadly weapon) for essentially the same thing.
Thus we have essentially the same thing: votes are being placed in an effort to inflate the perceived value of something. The difference I think lies with the intent of the voting. For this DIY website, our intent is to make N seem like a much better gaming experience than this minecraft game of which I have never heard of. For NUMA, the intent of the user is probably for their own reasons: to give themselves better map ratings, to snipe, or other similar reasons.

I think the intent toward DIY is much more acceptable than the intent of a user abusing the systems of NUMA.
so basically you're saying that a community's abuse of a voting system is ok, but an individual's aduse of a voting system is not ok. yeah, I can agree that we all want the internet to know that N Way of the Ninja is the greatest game ever, which is different than a person on Numa creating several accouts for sniping purposes and/or raising their ratings, but both of these actions are still abuse. It's like comparing the imperialist motives of America when it invaded the Phillipines in the early 20th century to a hitman who kills people to make money. Both are bad, and just because more people support the former, that doesn't change it's ethical wrongness. Just because you believe that multi-accounting is much more serious than rigging a competition doesn't mean that you have the right to rig.
rocket_thumped wrote:
a happy song wrote:Random online poll is just silly fun.
Numa voting is an inherent and "important" part of our community.
This helps us as a community if we win. And It's nice to see us all pull together as a team to help add some exposure to the game and community we love.
I'm pretty sure that's what the Nazis believed when they implemented their anti-Jew policy. Hitler must've thought it was nice to see his people pulling together to wipe out the vermin, all the while speading Nazism throughout Europe! I apologize if this is a harsh analogy, but I'm trying to highlight that reasons for doing anything can be entirely subjective, hence why squibbles's reaction is completey reasonable.
Spawn of Yanni wrote:Who are the newer members we're corrupting? It's very fair to cater to the hypothetical clueless ten year old who wanders in here but along that same vein, I shouldn't be screwing around with site headers for special occasions, or we should rule out any chance of a Tetris Takeover in the future on the off chance that someone walks in and sees that as representative of how we act. When it comes to existing members, I think - especially with the new admins - we make ourselves clear on where we stand with the specific issue of NUMA voting abuse. If we decide to have some fun at the expense of the poor dudes at DIYGamers and somehow manage to push a few new IRC-goers into thinking that multiaccounting on NUMA is cool, that is unfortunate but the blame surely does not rest solely on the guys here having a good time.

Edit: Mind, I'm not going to pretend like I'm signing off on voting abuse anywhere else as long as it's not us. S'just that there's no need for this one contest thing to get blown out of proportion.
I don't think the blame should rest on the guys for having a few laughs at the expense of DIY's voting system either, but don't expect members to regard you as benevolent lawmakers when you begin to treat multi-accounting as one of the Seven Deadly Sins. Everyone has their best interests at heart, whether it's promoting a great game called N or whether it's promoting their maps via "eliminating the competition" (sniping) or making it look better (boosting one's own ratings) but in the end these acts are always going to be up for ethical debate because not everybody is going to agree that what you've done is for good.

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Postby Spawn of Yanni » 2010.05.22 (21:30)

fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffor fuck's sake the entire point that i'm trying to make is stop comparing us to nazis, goddamnit if you're going to make points please pretend to read the thread

Get it out of your head that we're arguing that this is not ethically wrong. Stop trying to say that I'm promoting unethical behaviour. There is a taken-at-face-value impression of this whole deal, which seems to be the only impression that you're willing to entertain, and there's a godfuckingdamnit, this cannot be compared to numa impression that you don't quite seem to comprehend.

What are you arguing? Are you arguing that this was an unethical thing to do? I feel like this should just be set straight here to avoid irrelevant posts. Yes. It was unethical. Alrighty. Spirit-of-the-community-threatening? It's a stretch. Shoot for it if you so desire.

Are you arguing that this now means that being pissed off when people multiaccount on NUMA is not a valid reaction since we are as guilty as the multiaccounters? No, you are incorrect. Read the thread over for opinions on the matter.
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Postby bobaganuesh_2 » 2010.05.23 (02:04)

Spawn of Yanni wrote:fffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffor fuck's sake the entire point that i'm trying to make is stop comparing us to nazis, goddamnit if you're going to make points please pretend to read the thread

Get it out of your head that we're arguing that this is not ethically wrong. Stop trying to say that I'm promoting unethical behaviour. There is a taken-at-face-value impression of this whole deal, which seems to be the only impression that you're willing to entertain, and there's a godfuckingdamnit, this cannot be compared to numa impression that you don't quite seem to comprehend.

What are you arguing? Are you arguing that this was an unethical thing to do? I feel like this should just be set straight here to avoid irrelevant posts. Yes. It was unethical. Alrighty. Spirit-of-the-community-threatening? It's a stretch. Shoot for it if you so desire.

Are you arguing that this now means that being pissed off when people multiaccount on NUMA is not a valid reaction since we are as guilty as the multiaccounters? No, you are incorrect. Read the thread over for opinions on the matter.
Let me say this now, that when I say "you" I mean all the people that support the decision to abuse DIY's voting system in the competition.

I've read every single post in this thread, and just because I don't agree with Numa's multi-accounting policy or the opinions of others supporting it doesn't mean that I haven't read anything. I realize that while you, Yanni, don't necessarily agree it was right to cheat the vote, I'm saying that everyone else in this thread that has displayed pro-cheat beliefs (ie: rocket_thumped, atob, Tunco, southpaw) has given common reasons to differentiate this scandal from multi-accounting and therefore disregard the repercussions or if it was wrong. Even though this little conundrum didn't cause a mass amount of devestation like the Nazis did, and I may be blowing this whole thing out of proportion, the choice that was made was basically the same but in a different context than Nazi Germancy. So yeah, it is appropriate to compare you people to Hitler. I'm not saying that you're anything like him, but the reasons you and other people have used to support your actions sounds vaguely similar Nazi propaganda IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT to me.

All I'm saying is that no one should start cracking down on multi-accounting like the SWAT Team and start methaphorically stoning multi-accounters to death in public and expect everyone to agree with this ideology after this abuse has happened. You can still be mad at multi-accounters for bending the rules to indulge themselves, and you can still IP-ban them to the netherworld until the end of time. But don't be surprised when people such as squibbles or myself react negatively to this incident; even though it might've been fun, it is hypocritical to the ideals that you've installed regarding how to act and behave within this community. If it's in the spirit of the community to promote N, then good on ya! but it's still hypocritical.

And why do you say the ethics promoted by this occurence cannot be compared to the ethincs promoted in Numa? A vote's a vote, despite what the reason is for voting, in my opinion. I don't care if multi-accounting is bad for the community and this was good for the community. What was done was wrong and I don't beleive anyone has the right to frolick through IRC celebrating their contribution towards the greater good of the community in this competition and then turn around and stick their noses up at multi-accounters when they post in this thread.

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Postby Kablizzy » 2010.05.23 (03:22)

Universezero wrote:
squibbles wrote:My issue is that we're sending mixed messages to the newer members of the community.
I wasn't aware anyone cared about them. I certainly don't remember getting a fatherly raising through the community when I joined. The older members of this community may be many things, but they are definitely not role models.
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Postby origami_alligator » 2010.05.24 (17:55)

@bobaga_fett:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I feel that a more appropriate analogy is below.

---

Hugh is a student at a high school in a small town called Numa. Hugh's favourite holiday of the year is Halloween because he likes dressing up and pretending to be someone else. Hugh has gone Trick-or-treating every year since he was born and this year he has thought of a way in which he could potentially double or triple the amount of candy he would normally receive this year. Hugh creates a plan in which he will dress up in 2 or 3 different costumes over the course of the evening and knock on the same doors two or three times, pretending to be someone else in order to benefit personally.
The plan goes off without a hitch until his mother discovers his giant stash of candy and his multiple costumes a few weeks later and burns his costumes and throws away all his candy.
One year goes by and Halloween is soon coming up again. Hugh had been thinking about it since February and talking to people about it often. Hugh heard from a friend that a nearby town, called Diy, is famous for having massive amounts of candy and that a group of his friends are going this year. Hugh tells them of how he managed to snag triple the amount of candy last year by wearing different costumes and they all agree that it will be best for them to wear different costumes and split the loot when the night is over.
Word gets out and friends of Hugh's from a town named Minecraft hears word of this town with massive amounts of candy. They too hatch a plan to go and wear multiple costumes in order to maximize their potential amount of candy. The group of kids from Numa and the group of kids from Minecraft meet up at Diy and hold a small contest: whoever gets the most candy by the end of the night wins. Both groups are unaware but suspicious that the other is going to use multiple costumes in order to increase their overall candy supply.
Both groups are unaware that the town of Diy has a system in place (because of their reputation for having massive amounts of candy on Halloween) where only people they know receive more candy at each doorstep and people they do not know only receive one piece of candy at each doorstep. By the end of the night, Numa ends up with more candy overall but when they split it they end up with nothing more than what they would have received had they trick-or-treated at home in their respective neighborhoods.
---

In short, when Hugh does this in his hometown he is effecting only his community and the people around him. When he does this with friends in another town he is effecting their community. Is it more acceptable to do the same thing in your town in another town where your reputation is less at risk? Probably not. But you have to realize too that the town of Diy was smart enough to realize that some people would learn how to cheat the system and thus they adhered to a code by which they could prevent abuse of their candy supply.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the DIY website was clever enough to realize that some people were going to try and cheat the system and thus "cheating the system" is futile and out of sheer pleasure for the idea of cheating the system, nothing more. It doesn't harm the overall results much, if at all and that is the main difference. Our extra votes at DIY did not harm the results whereas placing multiple votes on NUMA effects things permanently within the community.
for example, I, and others, used to have a few maps showing a perfect rating of 5. Then Evil_Sire came along and sniped all my (and others) maps, permanently changing the average rating of my (and others) maps and my (and others) archive(s) overall.

So go ahead and continue to compare us to Hitler but I think you are blowing this all out of proportion on the effect this stupid contest (in which I only ever voted on in Firefox, once) has on our community.
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Postby bobaganuesh_2 » 2010.05.24 (22:51)

Manus Australis wrote:@bobaga_fett:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I feel that a more appropriate analogy is below.

---

Hugh is a student at a high school in a small town called Numa. Hugh's favourite holiday of the year is Halloween because he likes dressing up and pretending to be someone else. Hugh has gone Trick-or-treating every year since he was born and this year he has thought of a way in which he could potentially double or triple the amount of candy he would normally receive this year. Hugh creates a plan in which he will dress up in 2 or 3 different costumes over the course of the evening and knock on the same doors two or three times, pretending to be someone else in order to benefit personally.
The plan goes off without a hitch until his mother discovers his giant stash of candy and his multiple costumes a few weeks later and burns his costumes and throws away all his candy.
One year goes by and Halloween is soon coming up again. Hugh had been thinking about it since February and talking to people about it often. Hugh heard from a friend that a nearby town, called Diy, is famous for having massive amounts of candy and that a group of his friends are going this year. Hugh tells them of how he managed to snag triple the amount of candy last year by wearing different costumes and they all agree that it will be best for them to wear different costumes and split the loot when the night is over.
Word gets out and friends of Hugh's from a town named Minecraft hears word of this town with massive amounts of candy. They too hatch a plan to go and wear multiple costumes in order to maximize their potential amount of candy. The group of kids from Numa and the group of kids from Minecraft meet up at Diy and hold a small contest: whoever gets the most candy by the end of the night wins. Both groups are unaware but suspicious that the other is going to use multiple costumes in order to increase their overall candy supply.
Both groups are unaware that the town of Diy has a system in place (because of their reputation for having massive amounts of candy on Halloween) where only people they know receive more candy at each doorstep and people they do not know only receive one piece of candy at each doorstep. By the end of the night, Numa ends up with more candy overall but when they split it they end up with nothing more than what they would have received had they trick-or-treated at home in their respective neighborhoods.
---

In short, when Hugh does this in his hometown he is effecting only his community and the people around him. When he does this with friends in another town he is effecting their community. Is it more acceptable to do the same thing in your town in another town where your reputation is less at risk? Probably not. But you have to realize too that the town of Diy was smart enough to realize that some people would learn how to cheat the system and thus they adhered to a code by which they could prevent abuse of their candy supply.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the DIY website was clever enough to realize that some people were going to try and cheat the system and thus "cheating the system" is futile and out of sheer pleasure for the idea of cheating the system, nothing more. It doesn't harm the overall results much, if at all and that is the main difference. Our extra votes at DIY did not harm the results whereas placing multiple votes on NUMA effects things permanently within the community.
for example, I, and others, used to have a few maps showing a perfect rating of 5. Then Evil_Sire came along and sniped all my (and others) maps, permanently changing the average rating of my (and others) maps and my (and others) archive(s) overall.

So go ahead and continue to compare us to Hitler but I think you are blowing this all out of proportion on the effect this stupid contest (in which I only ever voted on in Firefox, once) has on our community.
I'm not concerned with the outcome of either Numa multi-accounting or futilty cheating the DIY system. I'm concerned with the decision certain people have made, which was to cheat in the first place. I agree that multi-accounting on Numa causes more tangible damage that it does when one "cheats" DIY's voting system, but I'm only highlighting that those people who did cheat and choose to follow Numa's anti-multi-accoutning policy and forever condemn multi-accounting are hypocritical. The only reason I compared this to Nazi ideology and propoganda is because it was the most convenient example. The excuse that "helping the community as a whole" justifies voting abuse sounded like Nazi fascism, which happened to be the first thing that popped into my head. There've likely been other incidences where people choose to abuse something for the greater good of the community, but to me Nazism is only example that I can think up quickly to support this current incident. If there would've been some other, less contrasting and hyperbolic situation that I'd've know of, then I would've used that situation as a comparison instead.

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Postby Kablizzy » 2010.05.25 (03:44)

Manus Australis wrote:@bobaga_fett:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

I feel that a more appropriate analogy is below.

---

Hugh is a student at a high school in a small town called Numa. Hugh's favourite holiday of the year is Halloween because he likes dressing up and pretending to be someone else. Hugh has gone Trick-or-treating every year since he was born and this year he has thought of a way in which he could potentially double or triple the amount of candy he would normally receive this year. Hugh creates a plan in which he will dress up in 2 or 3 different costumes over the course of the evening and knock on the same doors two or three times, pretending to be someone else in order to benefit personally.
The plan goes off without a hitch until his mother discovers his giant stash of candy and his multiple costumes a few weeks later and burns his costumes and throws away all his candy.
One year goes by and Halloween is soon coming up again. Hugh had been thinking about it since February and talking to people about it often. Hugh heard from a friend that a nearby town, called Diy, is famous for having massive amounts of candy and that a group of his friends are going this year. Hugh tells them of how he managed to snag triple the amount of candy last year by wearing different costumes and they all agree that it will be best for them to wear different costumes and split the loot when the night is over.
Word gets out and friends of Hugh's from a town named Minecraft hears word of this town with massive amounts of candy. They too hatch a plan to go and wear multiple costumes in order to maximize their potential amount of candy. The group of kids from Numa and the group of kids from Minecraft meet up at Diy and hold a small contest: whoever gets the most candy by the end of the night wins. Both groups are unaware but suspicious that the other is going to use multiple costumes in order to increase their overall candy supply.
Both groups are unaware that the town of Diy has a system in place (because of their reputation for having massive amounts of candy on Halloween) where only people they know receive more candy at each doorstep and people they do not know only receive one piece of candy at each doorstep. By the end of the night, Numa ends up with more candy overall but when they split it they end up with nothing more than what they would have received had they trick-or-treated at home in their respective neighborhoods.
---

In short, when Hugh does this in his hometown he is effecting only his community and the people around him. When he does this with friends in another town he is effecting their community. Is it more acceptable to do the same thing in your town in another town where your reputation is less at risk? Probably not. But you have to realize too that the town of Diy was smart enough to realize that some people would learn how to cheat the system and thus they adhered to a code by which they could prevent abuse of their candy supply.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that the DIY website was clever enough to realize that some people were going to try and cheat the system and thus "cheating the system" is futile and out of sheer pleasure for the idea of cheating the system, nothing more. It doesn't harm the overall results much, if at all and that is the main difference. Our extra votes at DIY did not harm the results whereas placing multiple votes on NUMA effects things permanently within the community.
for example, I, and others, used to have a few maps showing a perfect rating of 5. Then Evil_Sire came along and sniped all my (and others) maps, permanently changing the average rating of my (and others) maps and my (and others) archive(s) overall.

So go ahead and continue to compare us to Hitler but I think you are blowing this all out of proportion on the effect this stupid contest (in which I only ever voted on in Firefox, once) has on our community.
So... wait. Cheating polls is okay because some people know how to prevent or reverse some of the cheating? I can't fathom that you're saying that. I'd like to know what your views would be on cheating bigger polls - Like the Time Life polls, running auto-scripts to view up Youtube videos, and finally, I'd like to know your view on cheating the Census polls here in America.
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Postby a happy song » 2010.05.25 (03:45)

bobaga_fett wrote:The only reason I compared this to Nazi ideology and propoganda is because it was the most convenient example.
You need to learn that the connotations of a certain analogy or comparison are just as important a factor as the underlying logic. The example you chose was utterly ridiculous and out of proportion and its potential to insight emotional response over considered reasoning far outweighs any productive values.

-

Bottom line: cheating on a silly online poll that has absolutely zero bearing on anything and multi-accounting in a way that damages our community are nothing alike. There is no black and white with any of this, it's much more about context than some kind of universal rule.

Stop being so righteous about it, please.
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Postby Kablizzy » 2010.05.25 (03:56)

a happy song wrote:Bottom line: cheating on a silly online poll that has absolutely zero bearing on anything and multi-accounting in a way that damages our community are nothing alike.
What about non-silly online polls that have bearing on lots of things?
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Postby a happy song » 2010.05.25 (04:15)

Smörgåsbord wrote:
a happy song wrote:Bottom line: cheating on a silly online poll that has absolutely zero bearing on anything and multi-accounting in a way that damages our community are nothing alike.
What about non-silly online polls that have bearing on lots of things?
As I said, it's all about context.

Right and wrong is much more a sliding scale than black or white.

Getting all huffy about absolutes here seems like a real waste of energy.
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Postby bobaganuesh_2 » 2010.05.25 (05:20)

a happy song wrote:
bobaga_fett wrote:The only reason I compared this to Nazi ideology and propoganda is because it was the most convenient example.
You need to learn that the connotations of a certain analogy or comparison are just as important a factor as the underlying logic. The example you chose was utterly ridiculous and out of proportion and its potential to insight emotional response over considered reasoning far outweighs any productive values.

-

Bottom line: cheating on a silly online poll that has absolutely zero bearing on anything and multi-accounting in a way that damages our community are nothing alike. There is no black and white with any of this, it's much more about context than some kind of universal rule.

Stop being so righteous about it, please.
I apologize if I hurt anyone's feelings with my poor choice of comparison.

All I'm trying to say is that you can't expect everyone to take you or the rules you enforce seriously if you choose to bend the principles they infer under different circumstances, regardless of the bearing or consequences in each situation. Not that I'm saying that I'm spitting upon all of those who done the deed, but perhaps this is one of the reasons why hypocrisy has appeared in our community.

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Postby a happy song » 2010.05.25 (21:06)

bobaga_fett wrote: All I'm trying to say is that you can't expect everyone to take you or the rules you enforce seriously if you choose to bend the principles they infer under different circumstances, regardless of the bearing or consequences in each situation. Not that I'm saying that I'm spitting upon all of those who done the deed, but perhaps this is one of the reasons why hypocrisy has appeared in our community.
I'm sorry, but I just don't see how cheating in an almost unknown online poll has anything to do wit hour attitudes to cheating within the community.

You can hark on forever about these things needing consistency to hold real weight, but people know when their principles really need to kick in and hold true value and that's the most important part.

It's not hypocrisy, imo, it's simply knowing what's worth worrying about and what isn't.
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Unsavory Conquistador of the Western Front
Posts: 1568
Joined: 2008.09.26 (05:54)
NUMA Profile: http://www.nmaps.net/user/origami_alligator
MBTI Type: ENTP
Location: Portland, Oregon

Postby origami_alligator » 2010.05.26 (11:27)

Kablizzy, my previous post was first and foremost a response that showed a better analogy than Hitler and the Nazi party. While I do think that it is wrong to cheat on nationwide polls, I think it's silly to debate the difference in ethics between cheating on an online poll and lying about yourself in real life. If you have no idea what misrepresenting yourself in the Gallup poll or the Census could have on the outcome of the data then you probably shouldn't represent yourself at all.

While those are fair questions you asked, the thread is about the difference in ethics between DIY and NUMA and any comments in this thread by me have been specifically about that relationship.
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