Is Quality a Subjective or an Objective matter?

[DemonzLunchBreak]

It's inherently contradictory (and therefore necessarily false) for everything to be subjective. If everything is dependent on your point of view, then your point of view could simply be that nothing is dependent on your point of view. Or, to clarify that convoluted mess of a sentence...

If how reality exists is dependent on your beliefs or perspective, then you can simply believe that reality is objective. This is completely contradictory.

[Condog]

It's inherently contradictory (and therefore necessarily false) for everything to be subjective. If everything is dependent on your point of view, then your point of view could simply be that nothing is dependent on your point of view. Or, to clarify that convoluted mess of a sentence...

If how reality exists is dependent on your beliefs or perspective, then you can simply believe that reality is objective. This is completely contradictory.

That is just your point of view. Very subject, i might add.

[crescor]

Everything is subjective. Everything.

That's exactly what I said.

[crescor]

We need to breathe oxygen to live. Is that subjective?

Yes, because what's 'living'?
Everyone has his own opinion about that => subjective.

[a happy song]

We need to breathe oxygen to live. Is that subjective?

Yes, because what's 'living'?
Everyone has his own opinion about that => subjective.

The science behind the fact that we have to breath has absolutely nothing to do with the philosophical aspects of our existence.

[crescor]

The science behind the fact that we have to breath has absolutely nothing to do with the philosophical aspects of our existence.

You can hold your breath for 30 seconds. After that, you're dead. (not in every case)
Those 30 seconds without breath, you were alive, no?

[a happy song]

The science behind the fact that we have to breath has absolutely nothing to do with the philosophical aspects of our existence.

You can hold your breath for 30 seconds. After that, you're dead. (not in every case)
Those 30 seconds without breath, you were alive, no?

If you insist on pedantically breaking every point down like this, you're not even giving yourself the chance to debate properly.

[crescor]

Debating is all about proving yourself right and the opposite side wrong. That's what I do.

[DemonzLunchBreak]

Debating is all about proving yourself right and the opposite side wrong. That's what I do.

That's not what you just did. You just broke down atob's point when it was clear what he meant. You and he didn't actually disagree, you just played with semantics to make it seem like what you were saying actually disagreed with atob. You didn't take a side on the central issue that was being discussed.

[Condog]

We need to breathe oxygen to live. Is that subjective?

Yes, because what's 'living'?
Everyone has his own opinion about that => subjective.

The science behind the fact that we have to breath has absolutely nothing to do with the philosophical aspects of our existence.

Hey, don't press you beliefs in this 'science' and 'existence' crap on me. I'm not buying it.

[DemonzLunchBreak]

Condog:

That is my point of view, but it is also objectively true. I have given you valid reasoning, so now it's up to you to defeat it in some way.

You can do this by...
(1) arguing that reason is subjective - this won't get you very far, though, because then your own reasoning would be subjective and I'd have no reason to accept your argument.
(2) giving me a counter-example from the real world. Again, this won't help you, because to you there is no such thing as the "real world," and I'd have no reason to accept your example as true.
(3) showing me a place where my reasoning is faulty. This seems to me to be the only truly successful strategy you could use, but I don't think my reasoning is faulty anywhere.

[scythe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_th ... aintenance
hay guys i m mor sudointlecshul den u.

[Tanner]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_th ... aintenance
hay guys i m mor sudointlecshul den u.

Lol, clone?

scythe33, remind me. Did Pirsig arrive at the conclusion the Quality is objective or subjective? I haven't gone back through my copy but I feel like he may have decided that it's neither. My only real recollection is that he referred to three entities a lot when he was going through this section.

[toasters]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_th ... aintenance
hay guys i m mor sudointlecshul den u.

Lol, clone?

scythe33, remind me. Did Pirsig arrive at the conclusion the Quality is objective or subjective? I haven't gone back through my copy but I feel like he may have decided that it's neither. My only real recollection is that he referred to three entities a lot when he was going through this section.

I'm pretty sure he arrives at the conclusion that Quality is something that is intuitive, and therefore undefinable. As for condog and everyone else, to say everything is subjective is contradictory, because how you can you have subjectivity without objectivity?

[BNW]

The only thing we can do is realize that this argument can neither be proven objective nor subjective. Therefore, we must move on to other things.

[DemonzLunchBreak]

The only thing we can do is realize that this argument can neither be proven objective nor subjective. Therefore, we must move on to other things.

I... I... what the balls, dude?

Would you at least try to read my posts before dismissing them in a sentence?

[scythe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_th ... aintenance
hay guys i m mor sudointlecshul den u.

Lol, clone?

scythe33, remind me. Did Pirsig arrive at the conclusion the Quality is objective or subjective? I haven't gone back through my copy but I feel like he may have decided that it's neither. My only real recollection is that he referred to three entities a lot when he was going through this section.

I'm pretty sure he arrives at the conclusion that Quality is something that is intuitive, and therefore undefinable.

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

[BNW]

The only thing we can do is realize that this argument can neither be proven objective nor subjective. Therefore, we must move on to other things.

I... I... what the balls, dude?

Would you at least try to read my posts before dismissing them in a sentence?

I wasn't pointing at anybody with my statement. I was merely remarking on the fact that I won't ever come to the realization of whether quality is subjective or objective. In my opinion, which is all I can give, it is a combination of both. The subjective part is the individuals ideas on the quality, whereas the objective is the consensus on what is quality.

I didn't mean to piss you off if I did.

[wolfgang]

Haha, on a slightly related tangent, one of the essay topics for my HSC english exam was "How did the work of Ted Hughe's enhance your understanding of the concept that truth is subjective?"

......so of course I merely quoted Demonzlunchbreak and spent the next hour trying to raise my eyebrows separately.

[DemonzLunchBreak]

The only thing we can do is realize that this argument can neither be proven objective nor subjective. Therefore, we must move on to other things.

I... I... what the balls, dude?

Would you at least try to read my posts before dismissing them in a sentence?

I wasn't pointing at anybody with my statement. I was merely remarking on the fact that I won't ever come to the realization of whether quality is subjective or objective. In my opinion, which is all I can give, it is a combination of both. The subjective part is the individuals ideas on the quality, whereas the objective is the consensus on what is quality.

I didn't mean to piss you off if I did.

Sorry, I misinterpreted what you wrote. That's my bad. When you said "this argument," I thought you meant the one I was having about whether or not reality is subjective or objective. Because of my lack of reading comprehension, I thought you were saying I was flat-out wrong without giving any reason or addressing my arguments in any way. This confusion is clearly my fault, though.

I agree with you about quality - it has some objective components (relative to the purpose of an object) and some subjective components (relative to personal preference).

[Tanner]

"Quality," or "value," as described by Pirsig, cannot be defined because it empirically precedes any intellectual constructions. Likening it with the Tao, Pirsig believes that Quality is the fundamental force in the universe stimulating everything from atoms to animals to evolve and incorporate ever greater levels of Quality.

Funny, though, how I jumped straight into the Objective Quality camp despite the entire point of the book being to disprove that opinion. (Psycho)Analyze away.

[Kablizzy]

Haha, on a slightly related tangent, one of the essay topics for my HSC english exam was "How did the work of Ted Hughe's enhance your understanding of the concept that truth is subjective?"

......so of course I merely quoted Demonzlunchbreak and spent the next hour trying to raise my eyebrows separately.

Bahahah. Nicely done.

[Aethril]

single opinions are subjective. a concensus of opinions is more objective, but it's still derived from subjective views.

[yungerkid]

more objective

ahahahahahaha. ahahahaha. ha. ha.
edit: oh by the way aethril, that whole post had nothing to do with the topic they were debating. opinions != quality.