I claimed that it wasn't plagiarism, but Skyline disagreed. The argument presented was, "Does a program claim ownership to something free of cost, or does the fact that it is free allow one to use the product without crediting sources and claiming full ownership?"
[00:06] <@Pawz> LV, are you there?
[00:06] <&LittleViking> I am there. I am here.
[00:06] <@Pawz> okay, well, Skyline and I are in a bit of a situation.
[00:06] <@Pawz> We're debating whether taking a level directly from your level generator and calling it your own is plagiarism or not.
[00:07] <@Pawz> On one hand, you don't own the map, you own the generator.
[00:07] <@Pawz> On the other hand, you kind of own anything spawned from the generator.
[00:07] <@Pawz> Basically what it comes down to is: does not crediting your level generator make the map plagiarism?
[00:08] <@Pawz> Or is it just not crediting sources?
[00:08] <@Skyline> The two are congruent. D:<
[00:08] <@Pawz> they are not.
[00:08] <@Skyline> Plagiarism: "the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."
...rocket_thumped joined #music and asked what was going on...
<Pawz> beethoveN submitted a map directly from LV's level generator and we're debating whether that's plagiarism or not.
<LittleViking> Not *directly*. He did edit it slightly but still left most of the generated map.
<Pawz> I say it's not quite plagiarism, but that he needs to credit his source otherwise.
<Skyline> He actually submitted it as his own work.
<rocket_thumped> Of course it isn't. You didn't make the map, LV.
<Pawz> Exactly.
* Pawz gloats about having Jerrod on his side.
<rocket_thumped> Should I credit Mare and Raigen everytime I make a map in ned?
<rocket_thumped> Your level generator is just another tool to make maps for N.
<Skyline> That doesn't fit at all.
<Pawz> It kind of does.
<rocket_thumped> Also.. how do you know he generated it?
<Skyline> It's obvious based on the tile and object patterns, Jerrod.
<Skyline> Let me go ahead and post the definition of plagiarism for you for the sake of clarity.
<Skyline> the unauthorized use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work.
<rocket_thumped> He didn't imitate the program.
<Alphy> It's a bunch of code, which randomly generates a level.
<Skyline> He took the product of the program and called it his own.
<Skyline> LittleViking did all of the work in question. He just put his name on it.
<Skyline> He didn't put forth any effort towards actually making it, save for placing a few rows of gold.
<Alphy> No, the code did the 'work' in this case. Doesn't make it plagiarism.
<Alphy> I can shit on a bit of paper, and I didn't put in any effort into making it.
<Pawz> Skyline, I want to restate my analogy.
<Pawz> It's like making a free music program with a few premade songs for free, and then having someone change the bass line and releasing it on the internet for free.
<rocket_thumped> Exactly Pawz.
<Skyline> Without any credit to where they got the source from?
<Skyline> That's like sampling 95% of a song and adding a bit of "ting ting" at the top without crediting the original song, Pawz.
<Pawz> If beethoveN were making money off of this map, I'd be worried.
<Pawz> And yes, I'd be a little annoyed if the person didn't credit the music program, but I did release it all for free, so who am I to complain?
<LittleViking> This is robot court.
<LittleViking> Now, I call no claim to the levels that come out of generator. I didn't make all of them, or really any of them. I am not their author. The debate here is: Can the program itself be considered an author?
<LittleViking> It places down all the tiles and objects just like a human would.
<rocket_thumped> LV, your program isn't an author.
<rocket_thumped> It's a tool.
<Skyline> It's an author.
<Alphy> It doesn't have a soul!
<rocket_thumped> Exactly.
<Alphy> ...
<Alphy> Really?
<Skyline> LittleViking's program crafts maps based on what he programmed it to. It fabricates maps. It is an author.
<rocket_thumped> Skyline, it generates them, with the intent of being random.
<Skyline> No.
<Skyline> It doesn't just randomly shove a bunch of objects and tiles together. There are specific patterns it follows.
<Pawz> correct. It follows a code.
<rocket_thumped> I can't believe we are arguing this. It isn't a sentient being, it doesn't do anything on its own.
[21:19] <rocket_thumped> You press a button, shit comes out.
[21:19] <LittleViking> If you slowed it down and watched its progress, it might appear to do work on its own.
[21:19] <Alphy> I'm just waiting for when it rebels.
[21:19] <Skyline> I can't believe we are getting into sentience now. XDE
[21:20] <Pawz> LV claims ownership over the generator, not the maps that come out. though it is nice to credit the source that you received the map from, LV doesn't own the map, therefore you can't call it plagiarism because it isn't owned.
[21:20] <rocket_thumped> I think Pawz puts it most clearly. If LV doesn't claim ownership to the maps that come out then there is no way it can be considered as stealing.
[21:21] <KinGAleX> You can't retroactively claim ownership to something?
[21:21] <KinGAleX> What if I bought a new couch?
[21:22] <KinGAleX> And didn't tell everyone in the world that I owned it?
[21:22] <KinGAleX> And then someone stole it?
[21:22] <KinGAleX> "You never claimed ownership."
[21:22] <Pawz> you purchased it, KA. We're talking about free items.
[21:22] <KinGAleX> What if I took it from the side of the road and put it in my house?
[21:22] <KinGAleX> And then same scenario?
[21:22] <Pawz> then yeah, it might be stealing.
[21:23] <Pawz> As long as you had a piece of paper on the couch that said, "I got this from Dunbar Road" I think it'd be alright, KA. You are crediting your sources after all.
[21:23] <Skyline> LittleViking, do you consider the maps that are generated your product?
[21:23] <Alphy> <&LittleViking> I mean, I don't mind too much if people don't credit the generator. I don't need credit for stuff that comes out of it. But it is a bit dishonest to call it your own.
[21:23] <LittleViking> It's not about my ownership, it's whether a map can belong to the program.
[21:23] <LittleViking> I don't claim ownership, but the generator might not be so altruistic.
[21:23] <KinGAleX> I agree with LV.
[21:23] <KinGAleX> It's like Kablizzy making half a map and giving it to me, and then me claiming the entire map as my own.
[21:23] <rocket_thumped> Do programs have rights?
[21:23] <KinGAleX> rocket_thumped: On a molecular level, they're just as interesting as you.
[21:24] <rocket_thumped> Alex, there is nothing molecular about it.
[21:24] <KinGAleX> I believe the program does have rights. Its one ability and purpose is to make maps. There is nothing else it can achieve.
[21:24] <rocket_thumped> It doesn't exist in a physical form.
[21:24] <KinGAleX> Yes it does. It exists as an interaction between other physical objects and electrical movements. There is not a single thing that doesn't have a physical form.
[21:25] <KinGAleX> If you steal a dog's chew toy, is it still stealing? The dog is as sentient as a program.
[21:26] <Pawz> no it isn't, Ka. the difference between sentient animals and programs is that programs cannot act outside of their "code"
[21:26] <KinGAleX> That's a matter of opinion, Pawz.
[21:25] <rocket_thumped> Bah. Programs don't have rights to property, you don't see assembly line robots at the Ford plant claiming ownership to Ford Fusions
[21:26] <KinGAleX> The program didn't put one tile on the map. It made the whole car.
[21:26] <KinGAleX> And this guy changed the dashboard colour.
[21:26] <KinGAleX> The guy didn't pay for the car so I'd say the car still belongs to the Ford factory.
[21:26] <Skyline> If you had one robot that constructed an entire car, and someone stole it, would you still have to credit it as being either the robot's or the car designer's?
[21:27] <KinGAleX> Skyline: I can see it as either way.
[21:27] <KinGAleX> For the argument's sake, I could argue that it was the robot's. But realistically, no, it belongs to the Ford corporation.
[21:27] <Skyline> But I mean, you would still have to credit it. It would still be stealing.
[21:27] <rocket_thumped> robots aren't sentient beings.
[21:27] <KinGAleX> Imagine that the Ford corporation gave these car-making robots away. And then someone claimed the car-making robot's creation as his own.
[21:28] <KinGAleX> That's the situation we've got.
[21:28] <rocket_thumped> Wait. the car-making robots aren't made by ford.
[21:28] <rocket_thumped> So ford takes the product from the car-making robots and calls it their own.
[21:28] <KinGAleX> Says who?
[21:29] <KinGAleX> All the rights to the car-making robots' property is signed away when Ford contracts their building from the robot-building robots.
[21:29] <rocket_thumped> You really think they sign a contract to claim the things they make?
[21:29] <KinGAleX> I daresay they do in this day and age.
[21:29] <Pawz> Problem: Ford has purchased and claimed the rights to anything the robots make.
[21:29] <Pawz> If the robots suddenly started acting outside of their code and made motorcycles without reprogramming them, Ford could still claim the product as their own.
[21:30] <LittleViking> As a better comparison to the original argument, it's like beethoveN inviting you over to his house to show you the car he just finished building, and then following him into his garage where he shows you a Ford F-150 with "beethoveN" sharpied across the hood.
[21:30] <KinGAleX> And the robot sitting next to it.
[21:30] <KinGAleX> He's not going to say "Oh, the robot didn't do anything."
[21:30] <KinGAleX> He's going to say "The robot did everything other than the beethoveN and the red cup holders."
[21:31] <KinGAleX> Unless he's a twat in which case you probably wouldn't go to his house in the first place.
[21:31] <rocket_thumped> I'm not budging though.
[21:31] <rocket_thumped> Unless LV claims the maps are his own thant beethoveN is just a twat... not a theif.
[21:31] <KinGAleX> Thief is completely subjective. I don't think LV has to claim anything.
[21:32] <rocket_thumped> The generator is a tool just like ned. He doesn't need to credit anything unless LV requires him to do so.
[21:32] <KinGAleX> I disagree.
[21:32] <Skyline> I disagree as well.
