'black' and 'white'

[T3chno]

So am I, being 100% Indian and tan/brown, completely irrelevant to "black and white"?

[capt_weasle]

So am I, being 100% Indian and tan/brown, completely irrelevant to "black and white"?

I think the whole "black/white" thing came out of America being self conscience about slavery and trying to avoid racism at all costs, but mostly to dark skinned African-Americans chocolate black people. So anyone else caught in the middle is either forgotten or just referred to by their nationality, being brown, or "that guy human-being-who-has-male-genitalia over there." Either that or just through some other racist remark.

[SkyPanda]

I think he was referring to the fact that you are catering to the minority that might go out of their way to be offended by the terms, and I generally feel like these people are just doing it so they can feel victimised.

I'm the one offended by the terms, dude. And unless my subconcious is holding out on me, i'm pretty sure i'm not doing it to feel victimised.
However, I think that what you are trying to say is that most people aren't offended. That's true, as is this-

In the vast majority of cases the words are stripped of any derogatory meaning and are received as such.

If that's the case, this conversation isn't really going anywhere.

Well actually, I concede- I still feel that the terms are offensive, but a majority of people don't, and I see that I can't argue that a term can be inappropriate independently of how it is sent or received, which is what I was trying to do.

No, it's not. Many people who are considered "white", like Mediterranean types, actually have quite dark skin. Calling them fair-skinned would be inaccurate. Your terms do not actually line up with races properly.

You've missed the point. 'Fair-skinned' does not refer to a race, its a physical description. Why on earth would you call a person with dark skin, 'fair skinned'? As I have said (twice), I would not propose using the term 'fair-skinned' to refer to a race or culture, but I would propose using it in descriptions instead of 'white'.

[Atilla]

No, it's not. Many people who are considered "white", like Mediterranean types, actually have quite dark skin. Calling them fair-skinned would be inaccurate. Your terms do not actually line up with races properly.

You've missed the point. 'Fair-skinned' does not refer to a race, its a physical description. Why on earth would you call a person with dark skin, 'fair skinned'? As I have said (twice), I would not propose using the term 'fair-skinned' to refer to a race or culture, but I would propose using it in descriptions instead of 'white'.

No, you're missing the point. "White" and "black" do describe races and cultures; they can't be replaced wholly with 'fair-skinned' and 'dark-skinned' because there are times when it doesn't make sense to do so. If a paper is titled White Culture in America: Influence of the Patriarchy on Attitudes Towards Racial Minorities, for example, you can't just change it to Fair-Skinned Culture in America: etc because not everyone who participates in white culture is fair-skinned. If we're going to eliminate terms like "black" and "white", how do we talk about race? Are we just not allowed to do so?

As an analogy, imagine asking people not to refer to vehicles as Ferraris, BWMs, or Fords, but as sports cars, luxury cars, muscle cars, etc. It doesn't work properly because a Ferrari is different from a Lamborghini, even if both are sports cars. And that might not be the case; Ferrari make cars which are not sports cars. "The performance of Ferrari in this year's Grand Prix" is different from "The performance of F1 vehicles in this year's Grand Prix".

[SkyPanda]

No, you're missing the...

Now as i'm sure i've already said, I wouldn't propose referring to those currently known as 'white people' as 'light-skinned people'. The only time i'd recommend using 'light-skinned' is when you need to physically describe a person, like in the video you posted. When it comes to referring to a race or culture, like the words 'black' and 'white' attempt to do at the moment, any kind of skin description is inappropriate and insufficient, really.

Did you miss that bit?
I know this can get confusing, and the layout of the posts in this thread doesn't help, but I'm sorry I can't make my posts any clearer than that. Trust me, every time i've used the words 'light-skinned' in this thread, i'm referring to physically describing somebody. Not describing the appearance of people from that culture, just simply, describing their physical appearance. :)
This may indeed be all very stupid and incorrect, but not for the reasons you posted.

examples-
rather than, "this man has black skin",
consider, "this man has dark skin".
rather than, "this black man has black skin",
consider, "this [x] man has dark skin".

Why did I change the first 'black' there into an x? To answer that, and to answer your question here:

If we're going to eliminate terms like "black" and "white", how do we talk about race? Are we just not allowed to do so?

New terms need to be found.
However, as people have pointed out, we're not going to elimate terms like black and white, and nor do we need to, because the majority of people do not consider the terms inappropriate. :(
I believe a fair few people had a problem with the term over in the USA a while back, and the term 'African American' was brought in, right? But that term also has its problems, and 'black' regained popularity- well judging by the amount of times i've heard it used on television and seen it in texts, it has.

[otters~1]

The problem is, you guys are arguing an opinion. SkyPanda thinks that these terms are offensive, and most of the rest of us think that they are only offensive when used in excess, or with negative intent.

The whole fair-skinned dark-skinned thing is a different argument, and you can't mix the two. I think that's where the confusion is arising from.

[Turiski]

SkyPanda has a point, although if he's saying that we should eliminate the terms "white" and "black" (not to replace them with "fair-" or "dark-skinned," if you think that you need to reread his posts) then I say good luck with that. They're stuck in the brain, and it would take some pretty crazy measures, or more offensive words, to get them out, even within several generations.

I do agree, however, that fair- (or light-) and dark-skinned should be words that are more commonly used in our culture.

[origami_alligator]

rather than, "this black man has black skin",
consider, "this [x] man has dark skin".

It was too good of an opportunity to pass up.

[Brocerius]

Argh, ive been furiously googling trying to find an article on the morality of language... These are pretty interesting (especially the first one), but dont quite cover what i was looking for...

Anyway, the point is i agree. Language most definatly has an effect on the morals of the user. However, i think it would be fiarly pointless to take this one example of 'black' and 'white' and try and solve it - this is a problem with english (and presumably, to some degree or another, with every language).

If you wanna solve this problem, your gonna have to make yourself a new language, im afraid.

[Watermelonz99]

Black and White are to describe skin colour... Being racist about skin colour is dumb. It's like my friend insulting me because he has long hair and I have short hair...

[SlappyMcGee]

Black and White are to describe skin colour... Being racist about skin colour is dumb. It's like my friend insulting me because he has long hair and I have short hair...

Best first post ever?