Do you believe in God(s)?

[otters]

I hope this post I've just made changes your mind about this.

Um, I don't see how it could. Tanner was talking to yungerkid.

Oh, I thought that was directed at me. My bad.

[SlappyMcGee]

Tsukatu, could you link me back to the old forums, where you had that massive rant against Christianity, why you hated it and everything? I'm losing track of your motives.

You mean other than the countless lives ruined, wasted, and lost over the centuries where nobody had the courage to question their faith without being killed? If Satan exists, then he killed all of those people by convincing them to follow the Bible.

[capt_weasle]

Tsukatu, could you link me back to the old forums, where you had that massive rant against Christianity, why you hated it and everything? I'm losing track of your motives.

You mean other than the countless lives ruined, wasted, and lost over the centuries where nobody had the courage to question their faith without being killed? If Satan exists, then he killed all of those people by convincing them to follow the Bible.

If you're going to hate Christianity because it has a tendency to be abused, you can use that reason to hate pretty much everything.

[yungerkid]

If you're going to hate Christianity because it has a tendency to be abused, you can use that reason to hate pretty much everything.

be abused? he was talking about Christianity abusing its followers by giving them an illusion that is responsible for their death.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Tsukatu, could you link me back to the old forums, where you had that massive rant against Christianity, why you hated it and everything? I'm losing track of your motives.

Nah, I'm not gonna do that.

[kai]

Honestly, dawg, I appreciate your position but if you're getting out-Bibled by a non-Christian, it might be time to hit the books, yeah? I'm done here because you have an annoyingly tangential way of debate and don't read the book that you think is going to keep you from spending an eternity in hell. I'll be back if incluye follows up.

C'mon was that necessary? I mean, its a debate. If you don't know your stuff, you're outdebated, but it shouldn't get shoved in your face. It feels like people are too uptight about this stuff. If someone doesn't know their stuff then they have a disadvantage, but their fellow debaters don't need to criticize them on it.

beating a dead horse there pal.

..

*goes digging in the old forums...*

[lolzers]

I am a Christian and I believe there is a God. He is in Heaven With his son, Jesus. I am happy for all of the Christians in the world and there is only one God. You see, His son died for all of you. He took all of your sin because God loved you.
I hope many of you got the message and maybe became a Christian.

[乳头的早餐谷物]

I am a Christian and I believe there is a God. He is in Heaven With his son, Jesus. I am happy for all of the Christians in the world and there is only one God. You see, His son died for all of you. He took all of your sin because God loved you.
I hope many of you got the message and maybe became a Christian.

Take a look at some of the discussion going on here—you'll need to try a lot harder than that to convert anyone.

[Atilla]

...does ANYONE actually expect people to convert just like that? It's as though they think atheists have never heard of Christianity and will suddenly convert to this obviously superior belief as soon as someone informs them it exists.

[Radium]

...does ANYONE actually expect people to convert just like that? It's as though they think atheists have never heard of Christianity and will suddenly convert to this obviously superior belief as soon as someone informs them it exists.

Seriously man.. We NEED FACTS.

[isaacx]

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

That's a fact, so anyone today want to devote their life to Jesus?

[Tanner]

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

That's a fact, so anyone today want to devote their life to Jesus?

Okay. Now prove it.

[isaacx]

If anyone else would prove it for me, i'd be more than glad

[Condog]

If anyone else would prove it for me, i'd be more than glad

Wait wait, so if anyone would care to prove it for you, you'd be more than glad to prove it? O_o Seriously, how lazy are you?

[Studebacher Hoch]

I believe isaacx raises an interesting point.

Things are more nonsensical when they don't end in periods

[otters]

Tsukatu, could you link me back to the old forums, where you had that massive rant against Christianity, why you hated it and everything? I'm losing track of your motives.

You mean other than the countless lives ruined, wasted, and lost over the centuries where nobody had the courage to question their faith without being killed? If Satan exists, then he killed all of those people by convincing them to follow the Bible.

I...what?

[Seneschal]

Tsukatu, could you link me back to the old forums, where you had that massive rant against Christianity, why you hated it and everything? I'm losing track of your motives.

You mean other than the countless lives ruined, wasted, and lost over the centuries where nobody had the courage to question their faith without being killed? If Satan exists, then he killed all of those people by convincing them to follow the Bible.

I...what?

Erm...that?

[otters]

You mean other than the countless lives ruined, wasted, and lost over the centuries where nobody had the courage to question their faith without being killed? If Satan exists, then he killed all of those people by convincing them to follow the Bible.

I...what?

Erm...that?

Damn, that was helpful. Thank you.

[Seneschal]

I...what?

Erm...that?

Damn, that was helpful. Thank you.

Well your post didn't exactly leave me much to go on, did it? I didn't, and still don't have a clue what you were trying to say or emphasise about Slappy's post.

[SlappyMcGee]

PASTEBIN

^That is a pastebin of the irc conversation that incluye and I (As well as Lenny and squibbles) had yesterday night. It goes over incluye's comment. I cut out irrelevant side-chatter, but it's still quite long. Nonetheless, a good read. After that, we discussed a bit about the science behind atheism, but it was extremely informal and probably wouldn't contribute much to this thread, which has, of course, already gone over how science has proven that much of the Bible is fiction.

[Tanner]

Christianity doesn't kill people. People kill people with their Christianity.

... and their guns.

[otters]

Christianity doesn't kill people. People kill people with their Christianity.

... and their guns.

That's actually kind of true. The first sentence, in any case.

What I'm trying to say, is that if you guys can delude yourselves into believing that a book is true without and basis in fact, what would stop you from deluding yourselves into thinking something else was true?

First, we're not deluded. If we're the idiots in this debate, the atheists are certainly the assholes, and that's one of the things that bothers me: we can respect you, so why can't you respect us? Is it because you're the majority here? That's not very fair.

Second, if you want to use Hitler as an example: He was rabidly anti-Semitist, and he didn't believe so much that God wanted him to kill the Jews that he was preprejudiced and sympathized with Martin Luther's slightly weird views of the Jews.

Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf, "Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will." This doesn't make sense with his later actions: either he was basically a politically cunning theist, a liar, or an overzealous Catholic, to whom the phrase "perfidious Jew" meant something.

Hermann Rauschning said that one cannot be a Christian and a German. Hitler informed this same guy shortly after he assumed power in 1933, that he intended to "stamp out Christianity root and branch." He called himself a Catholic in public, but he hated Christianity. Hell, he created a Nazi religion parody of Christianity with its own marriage rites and everything.

Third, if you don't, explain why our little delusions are so dangerous.

[SlappyMcGee]

First, we're not deluded. If we're the idiots in this debate, the atheists are certainly the assholes, and that's one of the things that bothers me: we can respect you, so why can't you respect us? Is it because you're the majority here? That's not very fair.

[...]

Third, if you don't, explain why our little delusions are so dangerous.

First, all I'll say about the Hitler thing was that you were pressing me to explain why World War 2 could be considered a byproduct of Christianity. Certainly it was brought on by economic and political factors, but organized religion in general certainly did not aid to the divide.

I don't think that you are necessarily stupid for believing the Bible or whatever you believe is true, but I certainly believe that you are deluded. This isn't a comment on your intelligence. This is the keystone of the argument of somebody who does not believe in God. If you are not deluded, than what are you?

I think your perception of a lack of respect for you is, in fact, a lack of respect for the conclusions you make. I value you, incluye, at least as much as I value most mac users. When you talk about having respect for our beliefs, I think that might be because you look at the things we believe, and you see the way that we've come to these conclusions. "Oh, they're basing their belief system on what science has proven to them as well healthy skepticism towards things without definite proof. When we look at the things you believe, we're given little to no idea how you came to those conclusions. Often, when I've posted here asking for what makes people believe, they don't cite things that I can consider fact, or logic, but they cite experiences that can be considered coincidence, visions that can be considered hallucinations, and sometimes they even cite the text that I'm asking them to prove. So, ultimately, I cannot see why you believe the things you do, logically, and so I have trouble respecting the conclusions you come to if they aren't based on logic.

And finally, I thought that my claim that your delusions were dangerous was obvious, but I'll elaborate. As I said in the IRC, the Bible has many lessons to teach us through its stories. Good lessons, even. But there are things inside of the book that are fundamentally unfair. You pointed out that you'd like to know where in the Bible does it say that homosexual marriage is wrong, and I don't know that. But I do know that people believe that it says that, and that if it does say that, you believe that it is the word of God. Believing that this book is infallible since it came from saints and from God Herself means you don't take the time to develop your own morality; you don't try to answer any of life's questions yourself. Do you believe that all people should be entitled to their own freedoms, or do you believe that some freedoms should be regulated, so as not to offend God? If you believed that someone was truly doing something that hurt God, or if God told you personally to stop someone from doing something, would you be willing to impose your will over somebody else's? Historically, people have done so. America is a country where the majority of the states have stopped to people of the same sex from getting married. No person would be harmed specifically by their marriage, and the only defense that follows with the freedom ethos of the country is that the marriage is a slight against God, that it lessens regular Christian marriages. Without Christianity, it would be people saying, "Personally, I am disgusted by these people." Which sounds less correct, right? But when people misuse Christianity, they can both delude themselves as well as others but assuring us that they are doing the work of God.

Ultimately, I support your right to believe in a story that science has proven is likely untrue. Because I would never try to force you to believe in something else. What I think is that if Christianity is done right, then why am I ever hearing about it? If you all respect my belief, then why is the name of God being mentioned in arguments about human rights?

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Tsukatu, could you link me back to the old forums, where you had that massive rant against Christianity, why you hated it and everything? I'm losing track of your motives.

You mean other than the countless lives ruined, wasted, and lost over the centuries where nobody had the courage to question their faith without being killed? If Satan exists, then he killed all of those people by convincing them to follow the Bible.

I...what?

Okay, really?
This point is, like, a staple of any debate about religion. It's so tired that you really have no excuse to be confused about it.
Dark ages, crusades, witch burnings, the Inquisition... to name a few events in a few-century window in Europe. Persecution of this nature is still happening today, and has happened before, in most other parts of the world.
These would be the commonly used examples of the "countless lives ruined, wasted, and lost over the centuries where nobody had the courage to question their faith without being killed." Like... come on, dude. How does that not instinctively come to mind? If you bring up "atrocity" and "Christianity" in the same sentence, no one in their right mind is going to come back with "I honestly have no idea what you're talking about."

First, we're not deluded. If we're the idiots in this debate, the atheists are certainly the assholes, and that's one of the things that bothers me: we can respect you, so why can't you respect us? Is it because you're the majority here? That's not very fair.

I don't know, I've seen an awful lot of disrespect coming out of you unprovoked.
Besides which, this is a gross generalization -- just because you've heard me bring atheism to the table far more than is necessary doesn't mean all atheists are assholes like me. Atilla seems pretty cool, anyway. I'm also sure that there's a good many Christians who are actually intelligent people. Humans just have this tendency to notice the vociferous minority.
Otherwise:

Second, if you want to use Hitler as an example: He was rabidly anti-Semitist, and he didn't believe so much that God wanted him to kill the Jews that he was preprejudiced and sympathized with Martin Luther's slightly weird views of the Jews.

Yep, Hitler was pretty solidly atheistic. Trouble is, atheism is an "other" category, not an organized entity like an organized religion. One atheist, even in a position of power or influence, is in no way necessary like any other atheist. The best expression I've heard to describe it is that organizing atheists is like herding cats; they can be so potentially different that it's a fruitless waste of time. Shaking your fist at "the atheists" isn't really directing your efforts at an easily definable group of people.

Third, if you don't, explain why our little delusions are so dangerous.

Because you guys torture scientists, rob people of their life savings with TV personalities, and bomb abortion clinics.
Otherwise, see my response to your first question, cuz that stuff is also more than a little dangerous.
It's crazy, people in history have this habit of going fuckin' nutso once they have a holy cause. The thought that they have a mandate and ultimate approval of an omnipotent being enables them to commit atrocities. It removes the very healthy "what if I'm wrong" impulse and replaces it with "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD."

[Radium]

Third, if you don't, explain why our little delusions are so dangerous.

Because you guys torture scientists, rob people of their life savings with TV personalities, and bomb abortion clinics.
Otherwise, see my response to your first question, cuz that stuff is also more than a little dangerous.
It's crazy, people in history have this habit of going fuckin' nutso once they have a holy cause. The thought that they have a mandate and ultimate approval of an omnipotent being enables them to commit atrocities. It removes the very healthy "what if I'm wrong" impulse and replaces it with "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD."

Hahaha soooo true. A guy screws up and says; "Twas the will of god"