Are you okay with gays?

[Ampersand]

Chicken Catchatori, Dick?

[SkyPanda]

So the question is, has Jesus come to bring peace on Earth?

Uh no, the question was: "What the hell could he possibly have meant other than exactly what he said? You fucking tell me."
2 and 3 address this. 1 is just a bonus 'cause I love you.

1) If the "division" is not an undesirable thing, then it is not an undesirable thing.

No, it's more like: If the "division" is not an undesirable thing, then we can interpret this passage positively, and not claim Jesus to be a bad dude, eg what you are trying to do.

2) Linguistic devices are incapable of conveying any intent that is not well-meaning.

No, a linguistic device can create a meaning that is either positive, or less negative than a literal interpretion would be. They can also convey intent that is worse-meaning than a literal intepretation.
Aren't linguistic devices oh-so versatile? :)
There's a difference between "he COULD be saying this" and "he IS saying this". I'm not claiming that my interpretation is indisputably correct (eg what you are trying to do) merely that it is a reasonable possibility.

It takes a very contrived interpretation of what is obviously his intended meaning to arrive at the conclusion that he is saying reasonable things.

For a given definition of 'contrived', maybe. It still makes more sense to me to consider the big J's construction in the Bible as a whole, and intepret based on that overall image. Seems to be that a guy who is very into parables is probably a fan of metaphors too.

The fact that he says both good and evil things does not mean that he is being misunderstood

"I think he is saying evil things, that does not mean I misunderstand him."
Yes it does.

It is your desperate need to see him as a consistently merciful and omnibenevolent role model which leads you to deny that these parts of his message must be misunderstood but that other parts aren't.

It doesn't matter which parts of his message you understand and which parts you don't. I'm focusing on the parts that I think you misunderstand. Whether or not you've got a few things right doesn't affect the things that you've got wrong.



I'm not a Christian, btw.
Anybody read that part in one of Pratchett's books about two countries who had an endless bloody religious war because there was an argument about whether a dot in a word was part of the word or merely a bit of fly crap? :)

[blue_tetris]

Show me chicken catchatori! Judges?

1.
2.
3. Parasol.
4.
5. Sunglasses.
6.
7.
8.
9. Crepe suzette. *DING*
10.

Excellent! Yes, chicken catchatori, crepe suzette, ball-peen hammer, William Gibson's "Mona Lisa Overdrive", they're all basically under the same category there. Next up?

[Ampersand]

Incense, Frank?

[blue_tetris]

Could it be?

*XXXXX*

Oooooh, first strike. See, I'd have thought incense as well.

[Ampersand]

The Nina, The Pinta, and the... Um... Santos Carlos Del Rio?

[blue_tetris]

Hmm..... judges?

1.
2. Treponema carateum. *DING*
3. Parasol.
4.
5. Sunglasses.
6. NiNa, the J-pop music group. *DING*
7.
8. Santos Carlos Del Rio. *DING*
9. Crepe suzette.
10.

Nice get! Really stellar work, Campbells! Alright, little Lisa. Let's see what you can do. *kiss*

[scythe]

Hmm. Swede Mason?

[SkyPanda]

Fallout Boy - Thx Fr Th Spm

[Awesome67]

HOW MANY TIMES DO i HAVE TO SAY THIS? Who you are and what you do behind closed doors is your own business. I honestly think that this entire social debate is getting way out of hand. If you are attracted to a person in society of the same gender, then I say have at it. Publicly, this topic should never have been so strongly (and not to mention harshly) debated. I think that this economy and public have reached a point in their routine where whenever there's something remotely different from the way their lifestyles function, they freak out all over the place, and it's mass chaos. And people will never stop arguing.

[SkyPanda]

Who you are and what you do behind closed doors is your own business.

Sure, provided these are the doors to your isolated shack on your isolated mountain which you never leave, ever.
But that's aside because homosexuality isn't a behind-closed-doors kind of thing, and neither should it be.

Not to mention that there's more issues surrounding homosexuality than just sex, y'know. As close as they come, i've never seen somebody stand up on a soapbox and say "Gay sex. Ewww."
Mostly they say things like "why the hell is my little boy going to school and learning about a kid with two mothers? That's not even a biological possibility!" Or "what are you doing in MY church, demanding that I change MY religion? Next you're going to want to marry your television!"
In fact, I've never heard anybody complain about the sex so much as the societal changes which affect everybody. And because they affect everybody, we argue about them.

[jean-luc]

Who you are and what you do behind closed doors is your own business.

Sure, provided these are the doors to your isolated shack on your isolated mountain which you never leave, ever.
But that's aside because homosexuality isn't a behind-closed-doors kind of thing, and neither should it be.

Not to mention that there's more issues surrounding homosexuality than just sex, y'know. As close as they come, i've never seen somebody stand up on a soapbox and say "Gay sex. Ewww."
Mostly they say things like "why the hell is my little boy going to school and learning about a kid with two mothers? That's not even a biological possibility!" Or "what are you doing in MY church, demanding that I change MY religion? Next you're going to want to marry your television!"
In fact, I've never heard anybody complain about the sex so much as the societal changes which affect everybody. And because they affect everybody, we argue about them.

Although I emphatically support gay rights (and indeed my own sexual orientation obligates me to), I absolutely agree with you. The issue raised by anti-gay-rights individuals is that it will somehow degrade their own quality of life. I think all of these fears are unreasonable, but it is important that those beliefs be targeted directly, rather than arguing a different point.

[SkyPanda]

Although I emphatically support gay rights (and indeed my own sexual orientation obligates me to), I absolutely agree with you.

I support gay rights. What I don't support is self-inflicted stupidity: the whole "stop thinking about it! stop talking about it! there's no problem!" kind of mentality, which isn't based on an actual absence of problem as much as a desire for there to be no problem. In fairness, I don't like this mentality to be applied to anything.

[Awesome67]

Although I emphatically support gay rights (and indeed my own sexual orientation obligates me to), I absolutely agree with you.

I support gay rights. What I don't support is self-inflicted stupidity: the whole "stop thinking about it! stop talking about it! there's no problem!" kind of mentality, which isn't based on an actual absence of problem as much as a desire for there to be no problem. In fairness, I don't like this mentality to be applied to anything.

I second this opinion.

[jean-luc]

Although I emphatically support gay rights (and indeed my own sexual orientation obligates me to), I absolutely agree with you.

I support gay rights. What I don't support is self-inflicted stupidity: the whole "stop thinking about it! stop talking about it! there's no problem!" kind of mentality, which isn't based on an actual absence of problem as much as a desire for there to be no problem. In fairness, I don't like this mentality to be applied to anything.

I second this opinion.

I'm not saying that the problems should be ignored or glossed over, I'm saying that they need to be directly addressed. Arguing from a standpoint of "people can do whatever they want" fails to address the problems that are being proposed. I think the problems that people bring up are all nonexistent or negligible, but they must still be responded to or people won't see their concerns actually addressed, and no one gets anywhere.

[SlappyMcGee]

If you say "People can do whatever they want in their homes, but homosex is wrong." then there is still a very real problem.

[McP]

banning any form of sexual activity that is not inherently detrimental to any persons involved is retarded

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

banning any form of sexual activity that is not inherently detrimental to any persons involved is retarded

Homosexual sex frequently turns homosexuals on to the idea of continuing to have homosexual sex; 100% of participants in homosexual sex have had homosexual sex. This is bad because homosexual sex is bad, for the reason mentioned in the previous sentence.

[Equilibrium]

I´m bi and my family has got around at least 10 friends who are openly gay and in my opinion I don´t think it is fair to judge a person by the fact that he/she is into the same sex. And to mix in the religion in this discussion is just so wrong. I don´t know about those who are Christians and are against this. "How did the earth begin, well God created the earth in six days + one day of resting, then he created the humans now these two humans are worldwide known to be Adam and Eve. And they got two sons."

Now if you think about it, everybody knows that it is not possible for two men to have intercourse and that one gets to be pregnant. I would say that you are not human if you hate a specific kind of people and by saying this no I do not have anything against gay people no matter age, ethnicity, skin color, language or even their choice of clothes!

If you are against gay people then how big is the chance of you being as bad against people from Africa. Not big and that is what I hate about some people, that they hate them only because of the color on the skin and that´s about it, they seem incapable of answering the question completely. I don´t know if I have just been at the worst places the worst times but that is how I see the world we are living in as of now!

[otters~1]

I´m bi and my family has got around at least 10 friends who are openly gay and in my opinion I don´t think it is fair to judge a person by the fact that he/she is into the same sex. And to mix in the religion in this discussion is just so wrong. I don´t know about those who are Christians and are against this. "How did the earth begin, well God created the earth in six days + one day of resting, then he created the humans now these two humans are worldwide known to be Adam and Eve. And they got two sons."

Now if you think about it, everybody knows that it is not possible for two men to have intercourse and that one gets to be pregnant. I would say that you are not human if you hate a specific kind of people and by saying this no I do not have anything against gay people no matter age, ethnicity, skin color, language or even their choice of clothes!

If you are against gay people then how big is the chance of you being as bad against people from Africa. Not big and that is what I hate about some people, that they hate them only because of the color on the skin and that´s about it, they seem incapable of answering the question completely. I don´t know if I have just been at the worst places the worst times but that is how I see the world we are living in as of now!

well yeaj but you are from finland

[Equilibrium]

So just because of that I´m from Finland, my thought makes no difference? Is that what you are saying? And what don´t you think we have problems with hate against gay people.?

[chocollama]

I am not okay with gays. I thing it is wrong. This is my decision. For me. Whatever you choose, that's totally cool. Just don't hit on me. Despite that what I think you are doing is wrong, I'm going to treat you with common courtesy, because you're a human being, just like me. God doesn't hate you. God doesn't hate anyone. He loves all of his children. The fact that people would say "God hates gays" is the most upsetting part of this whole global gay-debate. It's kinda like if somebody has a high-risk for lung cancer but won't give up smoking. You don't have them because they smoke, you hate that they smoke. God doesn't hate you because you're gay, he is upset that you are making those choices, and still loves you.

These are my beliefs; you don't have to agree with me. This not written to or about anybody in particular in this forum. (Or anywhere, actually...)

[Seneschal]

So just because of that I´m from Finland, my thought makes no difference? Is that what you are saying? And what don´t you think we have problems with hate against gay people.?

He was joking.

I am not okay with gays. I thing it is wrong. This is my decision. For me. Whatever you choose, that's totally cool. Just don't hit on me. Despite that what I think you are doing is wrong, I'm going to treat you with common courtesy, because you're a human being, just like me. God doesn't hate you. God doesn't hate anyone. He loves all of his children. The fact that people would say "God hates gays" is the most upsetting part of this whole global gay-debate. It's kinda like if somebody has a high-risk for lung cancer but won't give up smoking. You don't have them because they smoke, you hate that they smoke. God doesn't hate you because you're gay, he is upset that you are making those choices, and still loves you.

These are my beliefs; you don't have to agree with me. This not written to or about anybody in particular in this forum. (Or anywhere, actually...)

wut

I actually watched Victim last night which deals with homosexual persecution. It's a little heavy handed in getting its message across, but it's still a very compelling and distressing film.

[Tanner]

I am not okay with gays. I thing it is wrong. This is my decision. For me. Whatever you choose, that's totally cool. Just don't hit on me. Despite that what I think you are doing is wrong, I'm going to treat you with common courtesy, because you're a human being, just like me. God doesn't hate you. God doesn't hate anyone. He loves all of his children. The fact that people would say "God hates gays" is the most upsetting part of this whole global gay-debate. It's kinda like if somebody has a high-risk for lung cancer but won't give up smoking. You don't have them because they smoke, you hate that they smoke. God doesn't hate you because you're gay, he is upset that you are making those choices, and still loves you.

These are my beliefs; you don't have to agree with me. This not written to or about anybody in particular in this forum. (Or anywhere, actually...)

This is the classic "love the sinner, hate the sin" apologism and I love it because Christians think it makes them more Christ-like. Fact is that there are several instances in the Bible where God says he hates people and groups of people. For example: Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Lev. 20:23, Prov. 6:16-19, Hosea 9:15 (I've specified the verse but linked to the chapter for context's sake). People who write that "God is love" like he's some giant, omnipresent security blanket obviously haven't spent much time reading the Old Testament because OT God is more the abusive step-father than the doting grandfather. OT God certainly hates a lot of people and unless you're prepared to make an argument for the transiency of the Christian God, he still hates to this day. Hates well and hates often. Sinner and sin.

[Sunset]

I´m bi and my family has got around at least 10 friends who are openly gay and in my opinion I don´t think it is fair to judge a person by the fact that he/she is into the same sex. And to mix in the religion in this discussion is just so wrong. I don´t know about those who are Christians and are against this. "How did the earth begin, well God created the earth in six days + one day of resting, then he created the humans now these two humans are worldwide known to be Adam and Eve. And they got two sons."

Now if you think about it, everybody knows that it is not possible for two men to have intercourse and that one gets to be pregnant. I would say that you are not human if you hate a specific kind of people and by saying this no I do not have anything against gay people no matter age, ethnicity, skin color, language or even their choice of clothes!

If you are against gay people then how big is the chance of you being as bad against people from Africa. Not big and that is what I hate about some people, that they hate them only because of the color on the skin and that´s about it, they seem incapable of answering the question completely. I don´t know if I have just been at the worst places the worst times but that is how I see the world we are living in as of now!

well yeaj but you are from finland

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hS0ZtW3_zw

i'm sorry i just had to