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It's on coins. Dollar bills. Documents. It's read in oaths in our legal system, and recited in our Pledge of Allegiance.

This connection between church and state has long been a part of the American legal system, and it's time we changed. With recent surveys showing that atheists, agnostics, or other non believers make up 15% of the population, they are a larger minority than blacks, homosexuals, or Asians, yet everyday their liberties are invaded by the government in the pledges they recite and the money they spend. Past efforts have garnered hate mail towards advocates from extremist Christians, and all legal endeavors have resulted in failure. Outraged believers and non believers have debated the issue for decades.

Who gives?

Umm. Considering this country offers freedom of religon, I think it is *absolutely ridiculous* that we are required to recite 'under god' in the pledge.

ToxicBlaze wrote:Umm. Considering this country offers freedom of religon, I think it is *absolutely ridiculous* that we are required to recite 'under god' in the pledge.

If the Pledge still mattered, I would agree with you.

By the way, Amadeus, if having God and such on your money bothers you, I'm sure we can come to an agreement. I'll PM you my PayPal account posthaste.

I don't really care what we do about this phrase. It's not like I read my money or public documents. I barely even say the pledge of allegiance when I'm supposed to, just making fun of it when I decide to say it. If we do anything about this, it should be to change "In God We Trust" to "Eating this unit of currency may cause adverse reactions".

Torex wrote:I don't really care what we do about this phrase. It's not like I read my money or public documents. I barely even say the pledge of allegiance when I'm supposed to, just making fun of it when I decide to say it. If we do anything about this, it should be to change "In God We Trust" to "Eating this unit of currency may cause adverse reactions".

I agree. The people who desire to have God on their currency really want it, and the people who don't believe in God are more or less apathetic to the concept of having it on our currency, since it's meaningless.

As a Discordian, I find it outrageous that US coinage makes no reference to Eris.

Even though it really doesn't affect me, I still think it's ridiculous that a country based on "freedom of religion" and "separation of church and state" has so much Christianity embedded in it. As long as it doesn't get any worse, though, I'm fine.

I find it a little interesting though, if it said "In whites we trust" or "One nation, under caucasians" there'd be a huge issue and minority groups would be enraged.
Honestly, I'm just waiting for a diehard like Incluye.

Amadeus wrote:I find it a little interesting though, if it said "In whites we trust" or "One nation, under caucasians" there'd be a huge issue and minority groups would be enraged.
Honestly, I'm just waiting for a diehard like Incluye.

Because it doesn't fucking say, "In Christianity We Trust". It says God. God is a big fucking concept. Nobody is infringed upon by having God on the dollar bill.

SlappyMcGee wrote:Because it doesn't fucking say, "In Christianity We Trust". It says God. God is a big fucking concept. Nobody is infringed upon by having God on the dollar bill.

...except for the people who do not trust in God?

Skyling wrote:

SlappyMcGee wrote:Because it doesn't fucking say, "In Christianity We Trust". It says God. God is a big fucking concept. Nobody is infringed upon by having God on the dollar bill.

...except for the people who do not trust in God?

Those people are douchebags.

Are we measuring douchebaggery by the number of things that a person doesn't trust? Or is it just the number of deities not trusted? Because I've always thought Buddha looked a bit suspicious.

DemonzLunchBreak wrote:It is interesting, and I think it's a case of historical bias. We haven't had any wars in this country between atheists and theists. We haven't had a historical period where atheists had to fight for their rights. And for the most part, atheists haven't been persecuted to the degree that racial minorities have.

Actually, according to several surveys, atheists are disliked more than Muslims, black people and homosexuals in the US. In the light of Obama's election, consider that over 50% of Americans say they would refuse to vote for an atheist as president. Also there were many laws barring atheists from public office, some of which are still on the books, though they're not really enforced. In related news, I have an atheistic relative who traveled to America, and was asked by random store owners whether he believed in God. Upon responding "No", one fellow charged him $23 for a single pair of socks which should have cost about $3. I know anecdotal evidence isn't worth much, but I'm just sayin', the extent of persecution against atheists is debatable.

Indeed; I seem to remember watching part of a documentary on it (possibly on the struggles of atheists in a gated community?) but gave up fast.

On the OP: Personally (forgetting for the moment that, as a Brit, I'm unlikely to care about US currency anyway), it wouldn't affect me. It costs me nothing to pretend to trust something that I'm not sure exists anyway - and that's only when I even remember what's written on the money - so why not?

However, it's more of a problem for those of non-Christian faiths. If the money said "In Allah, we trust", or "One nation, under the pantheon of Zeus", I would suspect that a significant proportion of American Christians everywhere would be complaining that every monetary transaction they made was a blasphemous act. What about the muslims/sikhs/hindus/buddists/pickyourownexclusivefaith that currently have to declare they are trusting God on the side, every time that they pay for coffee?

I think both Demonz and Atilla are right, to a degree. Although in the past, racial and ethnic minorities have been persecuted much more than atheists (from Nazi Germany to ethnic cleansing and genocide), in America, atheists are still repeatedly discriminated against more so than any other minority.

Atilla wrote:

DemonzLunchBreak wrote:It is interesting, and I think it's a case of historical bias. We haven't had any wars in this country between atheists and theists. We haven't had a historical period where atheists had to fight for their rights. And for the most part, atheists haven't been persecuted to the degree that racial minorities have.

Actually, according to several surveys, atheists are disliked more than Muslims, black people and homosexuals in the US. In the light of Obama's election, consider that over 50% of Americans say they would refuse to vote for an atheist as president. Also there were many laws barring atheists from public office, some of which are still on the books, though they're not really enforced. In related news, I have an atheistic relative who traveled to America, and was asked by random store owners whether he believed in God. Upon responding "No", one fellow charged him $23 for a single pair of socks which should have cost about $3. I know anecdotal evidence isn't worth much, but I'm just sayin', the extent of persecution against atheists is debatable.

Never received any kind of treatment like that, and am an open atheist in the States. Leave it to an Aussie to regurgitate the media perception of the people from a different nation, and assume it's true. Silly tiny island peoples and their backwards beliefs. I do have these funny images of people overseas viewing documentaries about America, from the point of view of some pasty dude fearfully investigating "God Hates Fags" and providing sweeping commentary on the American populace from these narrow views. I'm imagining sepia-tone photos of separate-but-equal water fountains providing secular and holy water, respectively.



A vast majority of my money is a number, not a piece of paper. It's in a bank, on a computer. I can understand the lengthy process of having to change every parcel of money in such a way as to remove a traditional element, and I can't imagine it's something even worth wasting time over. Whoever did the art on money wanted to write "In God We Trust" on the slip. If that dude wanted eagles, arrows, sashes, flags, dead presidents, bare titties, and apple pie on his image for money, that's fine. He made the money first, so it's pretty much his call.

We've kept the rest of the imagery (including the hovering pyramid with the creepy eye); I can't imagine we'd change some other aspect of the imagery we find to be overtly against something someone might get mildly annoyed over. I mean, imagine the tender heart of the dude who doesn't believe in eagles. The geometer whose distaste for pyramids verges on the obsessive. What about the vexiphobe who can't bear to hold onto his money? How about the avid Lincolnologist concerned about the bad representation of our first Republican so misshaven in his cashportrait? There's no physical representation for the money that someone won't get pissy over. As it is, blind people can't tell a $50 from a $1. Maybe we should work on fixing that first.

I'm more offended by that creepy fucking pyramid than I am by Jesus.

It pisses me off that i have to use money today that praises got just because everyone alive when currency started was a narrowminded prick. Blacks were slaves, women were born to do dishes, god was a fact, etc.

It pisses me off, but its not like we can just stop using money. It hardly seems fixable at this point, but one thing that can change is presidential candidates can stop fucking talking about god in their goddamn speeches just because thats what people like to hear.

blue_tetris wrote:

Atilla wrote:

DemonzLunchBreak wrote:It is interesting, and I think it's a case of historical bias. We haven't had any wars in this country between atheists and theists. We haven't had a historical period where atheists had to fight for their rights. And for the most part, atheists haven't been persecuted to the degree that racial minorities have.

Actually, according to several surveys, atheists are disliked more than Muslims, black people and homosexuals in the US. In the light of Obama's election, consider that over 50% of Americans say they would refuse to vote for an atheist as president. Also there were many laws barring atheists from public office, some of which are still on the books, though they're not really enforced. In related news, I have an atheistic relative who traveled to America, and was asked by random store owners whether he believed in God. Upon responding "No", one fellow charged him $23 for a single pair of socks which should have cost about $3. I know anecdotal evidence isn't worth much, but I'm just sayin', the extent of persecution against atheists is debatable.

Never received any kind of treatment like that, and am an open atheist in the States. Leave it to an Aussie to regurgitate the media perception of the people from a different nation, and assume it's true. Silly tiny island peoples and their backwards beliefs. I do have these funny images of people overseas viewing documentaries about America, from the point of view of some pasty dude fearfully investigating "God Hates Fags" and providing sweeping commentary on the American populace from these narrow views. I'm imagining sepia-tone photos of separate-but-equal water fountains providing secular and holy water, respectively.

Wow, what the hell is this? You've been giving some insightful input in other threads pretty consistently before this steaming load here. Everything Atilla just said was true, and your anecdotal experience adds jack to that conversation. Hell, if you want to hear my personal experience, I usually just keep my mouth shut when religion is brought up among strangers I meet (unless they see my bumper stickers, although I have now officially been cursed out repeatedly and had my car keyed because of them), but I still manage to receive threats of death and bodily harm from people who know nothing about me other than that I'm an atheist. It's also fucked me over in my love life. And I live in a pretty liberal part of California. I can only imagine what my life would be like in the Bible Belt, assuming I'd still have it at all.


As for the phrase on the money, I only recently realized that my money has more than a green number on it. I started looking into the pyramid shit, but everyone has a different take on it, and I don't care enough as long as Starbucks, the only establishment at which I use physical cotton currency (when I do), continues to accept the pretty pictures in exchange for coffee.
"I won't utter falsehoods, but I have no problem with meaningless statements." -Richard Dawkins, quoting some other dude

Tsukatu wrote: Wow, what the hell is this? You've been giving some insightful input in other threads pretty consistently before this steaming load here. Everything Atilla just said was true, and your anecdotal experience adds jack to that conversation. Hell, if you want to hear my personal experience, I usually just keep my mouth shut when religion is brought up among strangers I meet (unless they see my bumper stickers, although I have now officially been cursed out repeatedly and had my car keyed because of them), but I still manage to receive threats of death and bodily harm from people who know nothing about me other than that I'm an atheist. It's also fucked me over in my love life. And I live in a pretty liberal part of California. I can only imagine what my life would be like in the Bible Belt, assuming I'd still have it at all.


As for the phrase on the money, I only recently realized that my money has more than a green number on it. I started looking into the pyramid shit, but everyone has a different take on it, and I don't care enough as long as Starbucks, the only establishment at which I use physical cotton currency (when I do), continues to accept the pretty pictures in exchange for coffee.
"I won't utter falsehoods, but I have no problem with meaningless statements." -Richard Dawkins, quoting some other dude

Are you sure it's simply because you're an atheist? If your debate style around here and your bumper sticker suggestion thread are any indication, you aren't just an atheist, you're also a giant asshole of an atheist.

I also have no bad experiences being an open atheist/agnostic, but I live in, you know, Canada.

DemonzLunchBreak wrote:We haven't had any wars in this country between atheists and theists.

Yet.

scythe33 wrote:As a Discordian, I find it outrageous that US coinage makes no reference to Eris.

So do something about it.

I am also an open atheist, and no one's ever given me shit for it. Not once. Of course, I live in Austin, Texas, where the local hero is the guy who wears a cheerleading uniform and no underwear every day, but still. I'd expect something.

SlappyMcGee wrote:Are you sure it's simply because you're an atheist? If your debate style around here and your bumper sticker suggestion thread are any indication, you aren't just an atheist, you're also a giant asshole of an atheist.

Internet Tsukatu != Tsukatu in person. This is a tired subject.
I've been getting threats long before I got bumper stickers. Long before I even had a car, for that matter.

And that's great that you've been doing fine. I'm happy for you. But your personal experiences don't outweigh the facts Attila gave: atheists are unelectable, and the very word "atheist" is dirtier to people than "nigger," "kike," "fag," and even "terrorist."
Either of you would normally pounce on anyone stupid enough to argue through personal experience. Why the loss of perspective all of a sudden? You do realize that you don't have to back Dave up on what he says just because he's Dave, right? Granted, it's a good idea in general, but think for yourself, man.

I find my family hilarious. My mother's family would disown me if I told them I were atheist; my father is as atheist as I am, unless anyone else from our family is around.

I live in Atlanta, which is a pretty damn liberal city, and I still get shit for being atheist, but less so because I make sure never to talk about it. 'swhy I'm moving to Vancouver or something like that.

scythe33 wrote:I find my family hilarious. My mother's family would disown me if I told them I were atheist; my father is as atheist as I am, unless anyone else from our family is around.

I live in Atlanta, which is a pretty damn liberal city, and I still get shit for being atheist, but less so because I make sure never to talk about it. 'swhy I'm moving to Vancouver or something like that.

East-side is pretty tight, brah'.

Tsukatu wrote:...and the very word "atheist" is dirtier to people than "nigger,"...

If that were true, I would bother to read the rest of what you said.