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My dad and I had a chat. About God.

The Bible Belt is a fun environment.

My father is an atheist, my mother's family is more-or-less devout Christian. Thanksgiving is fun.

Yahoozy> Jerrod.
<Yahoozy> Go look at my thread in the Debate forum.
<rocket_thumped> link?
<Yahoozy> http://forum.therealn.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3687
<rocket_thumped> Where did you chat with your father?
<Yahoozy> Facebook.
<rocket_thumped> weird
<rocket_thumped> hmm
<rocket_thumped> I have to say I agree with you.
<rocket_thumped> But it's probably for the best that he didn't get the last message.
|<-- Yahoozy has left irc.mountai.net (Quit: Leaving)

Out of the ol' godless closet, ey?

You know, there are things you can lie to your parents about indefinitely until you die. No one will hold you to anything else. Sometimes, lying is the best thing for some people. Reality can be a cold and painful place to a person who's set in their ways and needs something more grave to hold onto about the world. Your father likely had more faith in your theism than in a deity. He needed that.

I would have lied to the man. Another person's peace is far more important than your integrity.

:/

(Also, the selfish and rational bit in the last message? I don't get it. You know, when you signed up for atheism, there wasn't a checklist of amoral nonsense behaviors you were forced to adopt. The knowledge that I rely on myself makes me altruistic. It makes me a good person. No one else is looming above to correct the world and make sure that people are inherently given liberty and equality (in the proper doses). Only me and the humans on this sphere are capable of granting that. It's our responsibility to do it, because no one else will.)

That was a conversation with your father?
You have a very different relationship with your father than I do with mine... or have had with any of mine, would be more accurate.

I'd've been more passive.
My approach would be centered on: "I don't believe in things without a reason to, and I haven't seen a reason to believe in the same God you do, nor any reason to think yours exists instead of any other. I've never felt anything I'd call God, and I'm plenty happy even though I don't have that element in my life."

Yahoozy has attempted to imply to us, on Ventrilo, that his father is strict and out of touch. I don't see any of that in this conversation. I see a man who came to you with concern and understanding. A strict and closed-minded father would have disowned you and cut you off upon discovering all of this. Mine certainly would have, and I considered my father to have been more open-minded than most.

Ayn Rand regurgitation would indicate to me that my son didn't think all this through--that my son was, instead, won over by a new way of thinking through exposure or media coercion.

The way Suki would have handled it was pretty spot on.

I recognize the difference between atheism and Objectivist morals, yes. u_u

I surely could have handled this differently, but it was extremely spur-of-the-moment, and caught me off-guard. Also, if I did fail, it's only from being incapable of discerning where the hell he was going with the majority of his arguments. Some of them just seemed offhanded and insulting, and occasionally severely uneducated ("You choose to drag a black guy behind your truck. You choose to ignore a person you disagree with.") It forced me to make some incomplete and faulty arguments for my own morals and ideals. I didn't get to elaborate, because he persisted in his ridiculous and irrational vendetta against my perception of existence.

Also, I've been avoiding his "God" questions for four years for fear of hurting him. At this point, it's not about my integrity. I need a little piece of mind.

Reading this makes me appreciate my dad's atheism a lot more. Thanks for the perspective, and please accept my sympathy.

My Dad thinks that Arabs are fucking evil. Do you know what I say when he's a lousy bigot? Nothing.

Of course, my Dad is in jail for suspicion of terrorism, so my advice might not be the best.

Yahoozy> I like how Dave expects me to make an extremely rational argument against my dad in a spur-of-the-moment situation that I've been avoiding for four years.
<Yahoozy> But not really.
|<-- lord_day has left irc.mountai.net (Ping timeout)
<rocket_thumped> It sounded like your father was talking down to you in the end.
<rocket_thumped> Which makes it hard to keep your cool.
<Yahoozy> Exactly.
<Yahoozy> He was making these subtle, offhand insults.
<Yahoozy> They really irritated me.

Yahoozy wrote:I recognize the difference between atheism and Objectivist morals, yes. u_u

I surely could have handled this differently, but it was extremely spur-of-the-moment, and caught me off-guard. Also, if I did fail, it's only from being incapable of discerning where the hell he was going with the majority of his arguments. Some of them just seemed offhanded and insulting, and occasionally severely uneducated ("You choose to drag a black guy behind your truck. You choose to ignore a person you disagree with.") It forced me to make some incomplete and faulty arguments for my own morals and ideals. I didn't get to elaborate, because he persisted in his ridiculous and irrational vendetta against my perception of existence.

Also, I've been avoiding his "God" questions for four years for fear of hurting him. At this point, it's not about my integrity. I need a little piece of mind.

It looked to me like a conversation. A possibly uncomfortable conversation, sure, but not a confrontation or a debate. Chillax.

SlappyMcGee wrote:My Dad thinks that Arabs are fucking evil. Do you know what I say when he's a lousy bigot? Nothing.

Of course, my Dad is in jail for suspicion of terrorism, so my advice might not be the best.

Bahahaha technically my Dad IS Arab.... and he gets money from the government.

SlappyMcGee wrote:My Dad thinks that Arabs are fucking evil. Do you know what I say when he's a lousy bigot? Nothing.

Of course, my Dad is in jail for suspicion of terrorism, so my advice might not be the best.

My dad didn't vote for Obama because he's black.

You tell me what's bigoted. >:O

blue_tetris wrote:Out of the ol' godless closet, ey?

You know, there are things you can lie to your parents about indefinitely until you die. No one will hold you to anything else. Sometimes, lying is the best thing for some people. Reality can be a cold and painful place to a person who's set in their ways and needs something more grave to hold onto about the world. Your father likely had more faith in your theism than in a deity. He needed that.

I would have lied to the man. Another person's peace is far more important than your integrity.

:/

I dunno. I can see where that might work for that third uncle you only see every second Christmas anyway. However, I think if my parents are dependant on me having the exact same beliefs as them, or captaining the school hockey team, or giving up my career to pop out some grandkids for their happiness... it's not really a healthy relationship. It is unrealistic to expect that your children will hold all the same interests and values as yourself - they're a different person, growing up in a different world, and it's just silly to be crushed because they make different decisions. Moreover, implying that you will be "crushed" or consider your child a failure if they deviate from what you want can also be used in a very passive-aggressive and controlling manner, and can affect the mental wellbeing of the child. It can also taint the relationship precisely because the child feels they cannot be honest with their parents without suffering for it, thus undermining trust and closeness.

Atilla wrote:
blue_tetris wrote:Out of the ol' godless closet, ey?

You know, there are things you can lie to your parents about indefinitely until you die. No one will hold you to anything else. Sometimes, lying is the best thing for some people. Reality can be a cold and painful place to a person who's set in their ways and needs something more grave to hold onto about the world. Your father likely had more faith in your theism than in a deity. He needed that.

I would have lied to the man. Another person's peace is far more important than your integrity.

:/
I dunno. I can see where that might work for that third uncle you only see every second Christmas anyway. However, I think if my parents are dependant on me having the exact same beliefs as them, or captaining the school hockey team, or giving up my career to pop out some grandkids for their happiness... it's not really a healthy relationship. It is unrealistic to expect that your children will hold all the same interests and values as yourself - they're a different person, growing up in a different world, and it's just silly to be crushed because they make different decisions. Moreover, implying that you will be "crushed" or consider your child a failure if they deviate from what you want can also be used in a very passive-aggressive and controlling manner, and can affect the mental wellbeing of the child. It can also taint the relationship precisely because the child feels they cannot be honest with their parents without suffering for it, thus undermining trust and closeness.

It isn't as simple as that, though. Religion is inherent to some people; to say that it is something like values almost demeans it. It would be like a parent who pushes for their child to be successful and independent. These seem like obvious things to want for your child, but at their core, they are really just largely culturally assumed values, much like "Murder is wrong." And I think that people take The Holy Fable so seriously that it is essentially another one of those instilled values.

I think I'll soon face this situation, but for now I'll maintain the charade for the happiness of my mother.

Atilla wrote:I dunno. I can see where that might work for that third uncle you only see every second Christmas anyway. However, I think if my parents are dependant on me having the exact same beliefs as them, or captaining the school hockey team, or giving up my career to pop out some grandkids for their happiness... it's not really a healthy relationship. It is unrealistic to expect that your children will hold all the same interests and values as yourself - they're a different person, growing up in a different world, and it's just silly to be crushed because they make different decisions. Moreover, implying that you will be "crushed" or consider your child a failure if they deviate from what you want can also be used in a very passive-aggressive and controlling manner, and can affect the mental wellbeing of the child. It can also taint the relationship precisely because the child feels they cannot be honest with their parents without suffering for it, thus undermining trust and closeness.

Still, I can get behind the motivation to positively influence your child without forcing him into anything. It seemed to me that that was what was happening, not "you are not a mental clone of me, and that is wrong."
If my kid is 20 and religious, you can bet I'll be giving him well-intentioned nudging toward my line of thinking, with the purpose of improving his life (if I think it will). My focus isn't on making someone think like me, but on helping someone I care about. I'd expect my religiously-inclined family members to do the same for me, no matter how misguided I presently think they are.

That said, on the rare occasions that I see my grandparents, I buy and wear a cross.

I'm sixteen, though. I have to live with this for a few more years. My father is extremely intolerant of those who don't adhere to his ideals, also. I have to attend church now. As another, and less relevant example, he told me to be absent from school on the day that Obama is supposedly giving a speech to public schools in some fashion. It can be a little ridiculous, though I don't think he's completely absent of rationality.

Though, he still has not spoken to me yet.

SlappyMcGee wrote:It isn't as simple as that, though. Religion is inherent to some people; to say that it is something like values almost demeans it. It would be like a parent who pushes for their child to be successful and independent. These seem like obvious things to want for your child, but at their core, they are really just largely culturally assumed values, much like "Murder is wrong." And I think that people take The Holy Fable so seriously that it is essentially another one of those instilled values.

Actually, pressuring kids to be successful is often harmful, also - at least to the extent that "successful" means "No, you can't be an artist! I want you to actually make something of your life! Now go get a law degree!" In the cases where is isn't harmful, the kid wants to be successful, which I think is the key problem here. If your kid is happy just flippin' burgers for a living, well... that's fine. I mean, they're content and they're not hurting anyone. Some people might not consider it success unless you have a fancy, high-status job and $100K a year, but if working at a burger barn makes you happy there's nothing wrong with that.

The issue here, really, is that if your kid is bowlin' along fine as an X, it's not really helpful to be all "OMG MY OWN CHILD HAS BETRAYED ME." You can certainly talk about it, or try to persuade them that they should be Y, but I don't think insinuations that they're a failure or a bad person for disagreeing with you are the way to go. "I'm worried that you won't be able to make enough money to survive as an artist" is a sensible reason. "I'm crushed that you didn't become a lawyer. I thought my son would want to be successful and make us proud, not become some dirty hippy living in a slum" is being a bit of a dick.

Atilla wrote:If your kid is happy just flippin' burgers for a living, well... that's fine. I mean, they're content and they're not hurting anyone. Some people might not consider it success unless you have a fancy, high-status job and $100K a year, but if working at a burger barn makes you happy there's nothing wrong with that.

I will feel that I have completely failed as a parent if my child is content with flipping burgers. Any non-blue-collar profession is fine with me, but I'll be disappointed in him/her and in myself if (s)he ends up less than or equal to that and doesn't have a damned good excuse for it.

You handled it decently, IMO. (And you certainly didn't fail) I have no idea what he was trying to say in his comments, and as it went on, he was clearly telling you that you were wrong and trying to push his beliefs onto you. It's very much like you said:

Yahoozy wrote:Also, if I did fail, it's only from being incapable of discerning where the hell he was going with the majority of his arguments. Some of them just seemed offhanded and insulting...

Don't know what else I can offer, other than stick through it best you can. If reason works on them, you can try applying Socratic method type stuff to their own views, rather than defending your views. I mean, they're clearly not going to understand where you're coming from if you try to defend your own views, but then again they may just respond poorly no matter what. :\

I think we can all agree with Atilla on this one. Wanting anything for your child that your child doesn't already inherently want for themselves is awful. You've gotta be at peeeeeeeace with your kids' choice, maaaaaaan. If he wants to do drugs, maybe you're the square for not being chill with that, bro. If your kid is happy selling her body for sex and being a coke mule for Columbians, maybe you need to expand your world view a bit, duuuuuuuuuuuude.

Yahoozy wrote:Ayn Rand shit

http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles2 ... ynRand.htm

blue_tetris wrote:I think we can all agree with Atilla on this one. Wanting anything for your child that your child doesn't already inherently want for themselves is awful. You've gotta be at peeeeeeeace with your kids' choice, maaaaaaan. If he wants to do drugs, maybe you're the square for not being chill with that, bro. If your kid is happy selling her body for sex and being a coke mule for Columbians, maybe you need to expand your world view a bit, duuuuuuuuuuuude.

Exactly. I mean, think of the children! If we go around letting people tell kids what to do, they'll be all "You there, pose naked for this artistic photo" and then we'll have to execute every parent in America for paedophilia. Nobody wants that. Except for terrorists.

My parents do that same thing, except they are a bit more reasonable and less strict about it. They tell me I have "a viewpoint that is very focused on the individual" and that I am simply "being deceived by Satan". Most of all, and most frustrating of all, they tell me that logic cannot be relied upon when it comes to God. I have a friend that is like this, too. Whenever I make a solid argument against him, he comes back with something that is either irrelevant or insensible. I have just given up arguing with him. Neither he nor my parents are ever going to be convinced. So I bide my time as my parents force me to go to church for now.

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