Metanet Forums

Is the universe Harminous or Chaotic?

Do you mean The Universe! by Do Make Say Think? Because that's a little of both.

(I think that) the universe is deterministic.

sorry if i was unclear, i meant the Universe of space, time and Physical things


I believe that it is Harminous because everything works together, whatever happens there will always be an equal and oposite reaction.

One of Newton's laws goes like this:
Every action has an equal and an opposite reaction.
I think the universe is harminous, if we consider that law as true.

These are the only options? And we have to make a blanket statement about the entire universe? Meh.

crescor wrote:One of Newton's laws goes like this:
Every action has an equal and an opposite reaction.
I think the universe is harminous, if we consider that law as true.

Aye, Newton was a pretty prominent Scientist-God, but some of the laws He established in the universe only accurately described interaction of matter on a defined scale; things deviate from His Laws of Motion when you get to quantum mechanics, or approach the speed of light.

True

But not everything in Universe is at the speed of light, most actions are even so slow that a humans lifetime isn't long enough to fully observe it.

And I like the way you desribe Newton as 'He', with a capital:)

crescor wrote:But not everything in Universe is at the speed of light, most actions are even so slow that a humans lifetime isn't long enough to fully observe it.

Au contraire, the very fabric of the universe, the fundamental building blocks that make up everything, elude Newton's Laws.
The constructs themselves do, but not the things making them up.

I would tend to say that the universe is chaotic, but forces of time bring it in to a sort of harmony.
That is, the universe is somewhat harmonious, but due simply to things rearranging themselves until they fit in to a pattern in which they didn't run in to each other that much. There's no greater authority keeping it that way.

jean-luc wrote:I would tend to say that the universe is chaotic, but forces of time bring it in to a sort of harmony.
That is, the universe is somewhat harmonious, but due simply to things rearranging themselves until they fit in to a pattern in which they didn't run in to each other that much. There's no greater authority keeping it that way.

Other than inviolable natural laws. But those aren't sentient. Probably.

Wouldn't it be sweet if those superstrings were trying to vibrate their thoughts to us?



Anyhow, you don't generate order from disorder. First, presume that "chaos" does not mean the same thing as "random". Random means non-deterministic, in some fashion. Chaos just means a lack of order, as loosely defined as you can make it. Harmonious means orderly.

I think if you take chaotic initial elements and process them through a deterministic model, you will get very specific results for each element. For that doesn't mean that there is any more order in those elements. You can put in a bunch of chaos, process it, and get a bunch of specific and different chaos at the end of the line.

The universe is chaotic. Predictable chaos can still be chaos--like an hideous, by-the-books train crash.

"The algebraic sum of all the transformations occurring in a cyclical process can only be positive, or, as an extreme case, equal to nothing." Stuff don't settle down and make harmony. Stuff interacts and makes more beautiful chaos, like a cosmic fractal.

See that number pi, boys? That number is useful as shit. Its value is chaotic as hell. We can't use our beautiful, elegant algebra to get that value--but we need that value to get things done.

Yeppity-yeppers.
After the bang, or whatever it is that happened to start the universe, most of everything was in all manner of configurations that were non-ideal in the eyes of the universe. Existence is a process to put everything in its lowest energy state - once that's done, everything will be perfect!
The problem? What humans think is perfect is very different from what the universe thinks is perfect. We want what we define as order, and so we have to put energy into things to keep them the way we want them, and very frequently that has nothing to do with putting things in lower energy states.
When everything finally simmers down to that point, the universe will effectively be inert. If everything is in its ideal state, then nothing will change, and nothing will have the extra energy to put into things to reorder them. Yay for heat death.

Chaotic definatly... Big Bang

Duh it has the word bang in it. It must be chaotic. And personally, i like Murphy's law- if something can got wrong, it will go wrong.

It has to be a bit of both.
The big bang doesn't give us a chaotic universe.
Cause if it was chaotic, then I think galaxies wouldn't exist the way the do now, but instead would collide and wreak havoc.
So it has to be both.

Galaxies do collide and wreak havoc. Fortunately, ours is not currently doing so.

Oh really?
I guess I haven't learned enough about space, but I'll remember to bring that question up sometime soon.

But regardless, my opinion stays the same.

Seems to me like both "harmonoius" and "chaotic" are just terms that humans have assigned meaning to. Since the universe seems to function apart from human ethics, I don't really see how you could answer this question from anything but your own perspective, which is a bit pointless because I don't think you can really understand the entire universe at that level.

I think the term "Beautifully Dangerous" best describes our universe.

But have you ever wondered that we could be inside of an atom inside of a cell, and that we could be eaten at any moment?

It's funny, because first you sum up the universe in a single idea, and then you go on to wonder about it. I find that a little bit contradictory.

The universe doesn't exist. Everything is only a perception of being real. There is no proof of anything, because the proof of the proof wopuld be grounded in "reality". Reality does't exist. You made up reality to cope with nothingness in your mind, but you don't know it. Everyone only exists to themselves, because everyone else is a projection made by your brain.
Think on this.

Brainwasher wrote:The universe doesn't exist. Everything is only a perception of being real. There is no proof of anything, because the proof of the proof wopuld be grounded in "reality". Reality does't exist. You made up reality to cope with nothingness in your mind, but you don't know it. Everyone only exists to themselves, because everyone else is a projection made by your brain.
Think on this.

Your ideas live up to your username.

If you look at the Universe through a humans eyes it would be very harmonic and relaxed since a humans lifetime is such a small fraction of the universes time that humans hardly see any progress or destruction... yet if you look at it through a perspective, that is.. the progress the Universe has undergone and is still undergoing forever.. i see it as quit chaotic and destructive...
I mean it takes a few thousand years for a star to die out... just look up into the sky tonight and look a those stars...
I bet a few of them have already died.. it just takes a few years to notice... its the same with new stars that are created... there are some new stars out there that aren't yet visible....

so i'd say the universe is destructive over time....

Yes, the universe is destroying itself, but it is also growing larger. Everything is moving apart, contanants, planets, people, but they are also moving together, contanants moving towards each other on the opposite side of earth, plannetoids forming and bridging the gap between larger masses and drifting towards nothingness, people groing closer to themselves. The destruction you see is also the creation of other things, the chaos moves towards change, and the people on this page are moving away from people (as they are spending time with a machine), and towards enlightenment about everything around them.

Brainwasher wrote:Yes, the universe is destroying itself, but it is also growing larger. Everything is moving apart, contanants, planets, people, but they are also moving together, contanants moving towards each other on the opposite side of earth, plannetoids forming and bridging the gap between larger masses and drifting towards nothingness, people groing closer to themselves. The destruction you see is also the creation of other things, the chaos moves towards change, and the people on this page are moving away from people (as they are spending time with a machine), and towards enlightenment about everything around them.

Please refrain from posting while under the influence.