Episode Construction

Discuss N mapping theory, N maps, and other aspects of map-making.

Moderators: PALEMOON,  yahoozy

User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1318
Joined: 2008.12.04 (01:16)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/maxson924
Location: Tampa
Contact:

Postby Rose » 2009.06.15 (16:02)

I've been looking through the threads in this forum, and I'm surprised at how, despite all the threads for single map construction, there's no threads detailing theory of making episodes (that I can find, anyway). I'd like to make an episodic pack, but I really have little idea how I would order the maps (other than the obvious making episode 0 easy and 9 hard).

Any suggestions?
Image

User avatar
Loquacious
Posts: 1747
Joined: 2008.09.27 (06:55)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/29403
Steam: What's Steam
MBTI Type: ENFP
Location: London
Contact:

Postby 29403 » 2009.06.15 (16:08)

In the suggestion thread in the old forum, there were many suggestions for custom episodes. When N 1.5 does come out it may well be implemented.
Image
sig by donfuy.
Not from Charleston, South Carolina
This Forum is probably the best forum that i have ever used and i would just like to say how proud i am to be a member of this forum

User avatar
Subterranean Engineer
Posts: 1694
Joined: 2008.09.26 (16:15)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/Izzy
MBTI Type: INTP

Postby Izzy » 2009.06.15 (16:12)

I think he's trying to learn how to make "episodic" maps, not custom episodes.

I have no clue myself.
Image
Derived from ksktorngsig!
I don't think the universe has infinite material though, unless God makes DLC packs. - SkyPanda

User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1318
Joined: 2008.12.04 (01:16)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/maxson924
Location: Tampa
Contact:

Postby Rose » 2009.06.15 (16:15)

No, I'm trying to learn how to /order/ the maps. Like, which level is a level 0, which one is a level 3, etc.
Image

Global Mod
Global Mod
Posts: 1596
Joined: 2008.09.26 (13:10)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/gloomp
MBTI Type: INTP
Location: Troy, New York
Contact:

Postby unoriginal name » 2009.06.15 (16:27)

This came up in #moa some time ago. I can't find it in the logs, but it was about the arrangement of levels within a single episode. The rubric was something like this:

0 - Scene setter
1 - Gold collecting
2 - Also gold collecting
3 - Quirky, unique level
4 - Hard

So yeah. That's a fairly good outline, but it's not iron law or anything.

"Asked ortsz for a name change"
Posts: 3380
Joined: 2008.11.13 (16:47)

Postby otters~1 » 2009.06.15 (16:46)

Blizz had a post about this in the MoA forum a while ago. I'l go search. Nope, it was LV. Should help a little.
LV wrote:I was the sole organizer of Expanse and Zenith. Granted, those were only 300 maps each, not 500, but it still supports that a single person can do it. As far as judging difficulty goes, anyone who knows me in an N context knows that I'm horrible at the game - I don't think I'll ever beat every level in this pack, and there are certainly levels I couldn't finish in Legacy - but I can still tell how difficult a map is by playing it. A well-crafted level has a certain air of difficulty around it, and unless there are stupid surprises along the way, that difficulty stays pretty constant throughout.

The most important thing to note when organizing a mappack is that you don't organize it map by map by map in ascending difficulty. You play a map, get a feel for it, and decide where, from the entire pack, it should go.

Say you play a fun, bouncy map with a basic-shapes style and a few dumb zaps. It's fun, it's kiddy, it's non-threatening - it belongs early in the pack and early in the column. This map becomes level 11-2. And unless another map comes along that better embodies the spirit of 11-2, it stays there.

You play another map. It's spiky all over. It's cavelike, but there are also chains and steam vents about. The map has lots of mines to slip and fall on, some rocket turrets, maybe even a chaingun to keep the pressure on. This level is terrifying, and everyone knows the terrifying column is 7. So this maps goes in the 70's column. Judging by the difficulty, it's either 77-3 or 78-0. I go with 78-0. Boom, done, next map.

A few tips for the organizers:
level 0 is the gimmick level if you have one, levels 1 and 2 are the gold-gathering levels, level 3 is the wear-down level (long, hard or both), and of course 4 is the climax.
Level 4 doesn't always have to be spectacular, especially in the middles of columns.
Episodes 00 and 01 are your attention grabbers, _make them count_.
02-05, 10-13, and 20-21 are your easy episodes. Anything in episodes x8 and x9 have to be hard. 67, 77, and most of columns 8 and 9 also join that list.
Columns 2, 3 and 4 are your fun columns - put fun levels in them. Column 8 is like concrete, hard but featureless. Very grey. 7 and 9 are the evil columns.
All of these rules can and will be bent as the spots fill up and you're forced to fit maps in where no space is available.

And finally, please, someone make it easy for the organizers to do their job. The Userlevels listing inside N *needs* to match the order of the text file. Organizers should be able to play a level in Userlevels, mark it in the text file, play the next level in Userlevels, mark the next line in the text file, and so on. Organizing a mappack is painful when the text file is out of order.
I was the sole organizer of Expanse and Zenith. Granted, those were only 300 maps each, not 500, but it still supports that a single person can do it. As far as judging difficulty goes, anyone who knows me in an N context knows that I'm horrible at the game - I don't think I'll ever beat every level in this pack, and there are certainly levels I couldn't finish in Legacy - but I can still tell how difficult a map is by playing it. A well-crafted level has a certain air of difficulty around it, and unless there are stupid surprises along the way, that difficulty stays pretty constant throughout.

The most important thing to note when organizing a mappack is that you don't organize it map by map by map in ascending difficulty. You play a map, get a feel for it, and decide where, from the entire pack, it should go.

Say you play a fun, bouncy map with a basic-shapes style and a few dumb zaps. It's fun, it's kiddy, it's non-threatening - it belongs early in the pack and early in the column. This map becomes level 11-2. And unless another map comes along that better embodies the spirit of 11-2, it stays there.

You play another map. It's spiky all over. It's cavelike, but there are also chains and steam vents about. The map has lots of mines to slip and fall on, some rocket turrets, maybe even a chaingun to keep the pressure on. This level is terrifying, and everyone knows the terrifying column is 7. So this maps goes in the 70's column. Judging by the difficulty, it's either 77-3 or 78-0. I go with 78-0. Boom, done, next map.

A few tips for the organizers:
level 0 is the gimmick level if you have one, levels 1 and 2 are the gold-gathering levels, level 3 is the wear-down level (long, hard or both), and of course 4 is the climax.
Level 4 doesn't always have to be spectacular, especially in the middles of columns.
Episodes 00 and 01 are your attention grabbers, _make them count_.
02-05, 10-13, and 20-21 are your easy episodes. Anything in episodes x8 and x9 have to be hard. 67, 77, and most of columns 8 and 9 also join that list.
Columns 2, 3 and 4 are your fun columns - put fun levels in them. Column 8 is like concrete, hard but featureless. Very grey. 7 and 9 are the evil columns.
All of these rules can and will be bent as the spots fill up and you're forced to fit maps in where no space is available.

And finally, please, someone make it easy for the organizers to do their job. The Userlevels listing inside N *needs* to match the order of the text file. Organizers should be able to play a level in Userlevels, mark it in the text file, play the next level in Userlevels, mark the next line in the text file, and so on. Organizing a mappack is painful when the text file is out of order.
the dusk the dawn the earth the sea

User avatar
Loquacious
Posts: 1747
Joined: 2008.09.27 (06:55)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/29403
Steam: What's Steam
MBTI Type: ENFP
Location: London
Contact:

Postby 29403 » 2009.06.15 (17:38)

Here's how it works on N.

0 - A nice easy level to get you into the game.
1 - A medium level which isn't too exciting, but still fun.
2 - A shorter level with some gold collecting.
3 - A harder level to prepare you for 4.
4 - The hardest map in the episode.
Image
sig by donfuy.
Not from Charleston, South Carolina
This Forum is probably the best forum that i have ever used and i would just like to say how proud i am to be a member of this forum

dreams slip through our fingers like hott slut sexxx
Posts: 3896
Joined: 2009.01.14 (15:41)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/Tunco123
MBTI Type: INTJ
Location: Istanbul

Postby Tunco » 2009.06.15 (18:09)

29403 wrote:4 - The hardest map in the episode.
It musn't be the hardest map on the episode. There are some episodes (not counting first 3rd column) that are very easy at all.
spoiler

Image


User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 1318
Joined: 2008.12.04 (01:16)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/maxson924
Location: Tampa
Contact:

Postby Rose » 2009.06.15 (18:31)

flag wrote:
LV wrote:level 3 is the wear-down level (long, hard or both), and of course 4 is the climax.
I'm having trouble understanding the difference between these two. If it doesn't climax in length or difficulty, what does it climax in?

Oh and thanks a lot so far, guys. Please keep them coming though; the more perspectives, the better :D
Image

User avatar
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 941
Joined: 2008.09.29 (04:32)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/PALEMOON Bad Thread
MBTI Type: ISTP

Postby PALEMOON » 2009.06.15 (18:48)

Keep in mind you can basically break any of these rules if you want to (and it's my opinion that you should). It's your levelpack so you should arrange it the way you want to.



0: Enemies that are not too agressive or overpowering, length can be basically whatever you want, make the level easy and not-stressful to complete but make an AGD slightly challenging to do in a short period of time.

1: More agressive enemy usage, put lots of gold around for those weirdos who try to AGD everything, focus on playability and fun

2: you can ramp up the difficulty a lot here, increase the tension on the player, etc

3: the episode is almost over so you can imagine level 3 as kind of the build-up to the final boss or an epic build-up or whatever. A challenging level is acceptable, (and sometimes it can be harder than 4)

4: wbwoahwuaba, it's the final fight! This level should look daunting and impressive and be very challenging for the player. After all, they've come a long way since the comfort of level 0!

User avatar
Loquacious
Posts: 1747
Joined: 2008.09.27 (06:55)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/29403
Steam: What's Steam
MBTI Type: ENFP
Location: London
Contact:

Postby 29403 » 2009.06.15 (18:58)

Tunco123 wrote:
29403 wrote:4 - The hardest map in the episode.
It musn't be the hardest map on the episode. There are some episodes (not counting first 3rd column) that are very easy at all.
There are many examples of this. It's a rough guide. It's not meant to be precise to the picometre.
Image
sig by donfuy.
Not from Charleston, South Carolina
This Forum is probably the best forum that i have ever used and i would just like to say how proud i am to be a member of this forum

dreams slip through our fingers like hott slut sexxx
Posts: 3896
Joined: 2009.01.14 (15:41)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/Tunco123
MBTI Type: INTJ
Location: Istanbul

Postby Tunco » 2009.06.15 (19:41)

Here is my way arranging:

0: An agd map, possibly, not so much enemies, only mines maybe.

1: A map that is takes more time to finish it, and has more intense athmosphere.

2: Ground rule is to stay alive, and finish the level, so we finished warm-up.

3: Level before the final, depends how you are going to do final. 3 is important. Final can be very easy nor hard. If it's hard, suppose that this is the final level, or in better words; climax.

4: Can be climax, contains a athomsphere mixed with other levels. OR, you can make it easy, like 0th.
spoiler

Image


User avatar
Yet Another Harshad
Posts: 464
Joined: 2008.09.26 (13:23)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/lord_day
MBTI Type: INTJ

Postby lord_day » 2009.06.15 (20:03)

I've recently come in the habit of making consecutive levels in my episodes alternate colours. I also like to get a good spread of enemies across, say, two episodes.
Image

"Asked ortsz for a name change"
Posts: 3380
Joined: 2008.11.13 (16:47)

Postby otters~1 » 2009.06.15 (21:53)

PALEMOON wrote:Keep in mind you can basically break any of these rules if you want to (and it's my opinion that you should). It's your levelpack so you should arrange it the way you want to.


0: Enemies that are not too agressive or overpowering, length can be basically whatever you want, make the level easy and not-stressful to complete but make an AGD slightly challenging to do in a short period of time.

1: More agressive enemy usage, put lots of gold around for those weirdos who try to AGD everything, focus on playability and fun

2: you can ramp up the difficulty a lot here, increase the tension on the player, etc

3: the episode is almost over so you can imagine level 3 as kind of the build-up to the final boss or an epic build-up or whatever. A challenging level is acceptable, (and sometimes it can be harder than 4)

4: wbwoahwuaba, it's the final fight! This level should look daunting and impressive and be very challenging for the player. After all, they've come a long way since the comfort of level 0!
He's really good at this; listen to him.
maxson924 wrote:
flag wrote:
LV wrote:level 3 is the wear-down level (long, hard or both), and of course 4 is the climax.
I'm having trouble understanding the difference between these two. If it doesn't climax in length or difficulty, what does it climax in?
I think he just meant it should be the best or most interesting level.
the dusk the dawn the earth the sea

User avatar
Secretariat Ain't Got Nuthin' On This Shit
Posts: 521
Joined: 2009.01.08 (05:03)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/
MBTI Type: ISTJ
Location: Huntington, WV

Postby Ampersand » 2009.06.16 (05:50)

Legacy used to have an entire topic on this, and it kinda goes along with the whole Map Theory thing, but I'll see if I can go into it.

However, we did have some consistent things with each pack's level 00-0;

Each 00-0 had no active enemies (Active enemies are enemies that move on their own volition or seek the ninja out in some way - Included in these are Rockets, Gausses, Laser Drones, and Chaingun Drones. Thwumps, Mines and floorguards are Passive enemies, whereas Thwumps and floorguards are Triggered enemies as well).

Each 00-0 was incredibly minimalistic, meaning not too much stuff, lots of open space, and lots of room to jump and maneuver, give the person a feel for the pack and playing again.

Each 00-0 had what we called "Quiet Contemplation" - A system of calm before the map got started, as a sort of breath of fresh air; a deep breath to take in before starting on a journey. Silly? Yes. But did it work? Fuck yes, doughnut.

The rest of the similarities really end there, but jumps, enemy placement, and atmosphere were absolutely *integral*. The most important thing, though, was that each column-starter - but more importantly - each 00-0 had to be rock-your-face-off unique. Something that no one had seen or done yet whatsoever.

The most important thing about column starters (Particularly 00-0) is that they need to be *Iconic*. I did this a bit with MoA a short time ago, but I can remember exactly the three openers and the three enders for each Legacy pack, and I'm sure most other people can too - Levitator, Eclectic, and Crimson Coast opened the packs, and Brambles and Shambles, TMZ, and Culmination ended the packs. These were easily our most memorable maps, save for a handful. But we did this because the first map is *the* most important map in a given pack, hands-down. If someone sees a generic opening map, they'll more than likely immediately stop playing.

With Levitator, it had a theme, a recognizable title, and gameplay to tie it all together. With Eclectic, it had a theme, a recognizable title, and gameplay to tie it all together. With Crimson Coast, it had a theme, a recognizable title, and gameplay to tie it all together. Legacy was so formulaic, it hurts my balls off.

You'll also notice that most column-starters (XX0-0) also don't have active enemies. For instance, 070-0 does have active enemies. 100-0 has one active enemy, and is a rocket, but it's an incredibly short map. 110-0 also does, but is also incredibly short and easy. 120-0 has Triggered enemies. 130-0 has Actives. 150-0 is iconic and clever. And everything up from there are extremely minimalistic but also - Even if they do have active enemies

Ehhh, I forgot the rest. Most of it is intuitive, though. We had some maps that we simply couldn't explain where to put them, but we had to have them at 122-X for some reason. Same went for final episode/column organization for the three packs. We spent *ages* on that shit.
Image
mintnut wrote:Oh my life, STRAP ON A PAIR! Get over it, make better maps, innit?
Posts from the old forums: 11,194

Wizard Dentist
Posts: 604
Joined: 2008.09.26 (15:04)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/SkyPanda

Postby SkyPanda » 2009.06.16 (08:39)

It doesn't really matter at all when it comes to map packs, for two reasons.

Firstly, when playing a pack in userlevels there is no total episode time, which was what made the composition of the episodes in the actual game so important. In userlevels, you get 90 seconds for each map. You can't change that. Secondly, in userlevels mode there's no guarantee that the maps will be played in the order you intend them to be played. I sure as hell never play a pack in order, or even in one sitting. That's why carefully arranging the content of your pack might be a huge waste of time.


The most important thing when it comes to pack organisation is grabbing the players attention and keeping them hooked. Make sure that you put some of the best maps in the first few sections of the pack, so that they appear on the first page in userlevels. Spread the rest of the good maps throughout, so that the quality of the pack doesn't fall away towards the end. Make sure there's also a couple of interesting, artsy or unique maps on the first page, to further get the players attention. Also, a wide variety is crucial. If the first ten maps in order are all the same, then i'm not going to play your pack. Shake it up right from the start.

I know that's not what the topic asks, though. Maybe if v1.5 has user episodes, then organising packs into episodes will become more important. At this stage, i'd be wondering why you want to organise them into 'episodes' anyway. There's really no point, why not try something unique?

User avatar
The Rose in Spanish Harlem
Posts: 140
Joined: 2009.01.26 (08:42)

Postby Mae » 2009.06.16 (14:21)

Hm. It's a pity map packs can't be arranged in the format of the original game. That way they would be played the way they're supposed to. I always play a map pack from 00-0 to 00-1 to 00-2 etc, but it would be a massive improvement if they could be organised in episodes and columns. And either way you play it in the current system, there is still the limitation of no gold-"overlap" (ie, 90 seconds for each new level).

All of this makes it difficult to simulate the environment of the original game, but I believe levels/episodes/columns should be constructed in a way that would ideally be effective in said environment. Hopefully in v1.5 there will be improvements which overcome these problems.

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/Planet_Apes-lawgiver-statue.jpg
Posts: 514
Joined: 2008.09.26 (19:13)
MBTI Type: ISTJ

Postby Pikman » 2009.06.17 (13:48)

The way I see it:

XX-0: None to few action enemies (anything that moves or shoots). Perhaps an AGD challenge. Easier than later levels, for the most part, and varies in length. Should be fun.
XX-1: More gold, and probably action enemies here. Slightly more challenging than the previous level. Usually short.
XX-2: This level probably contains little gold and a higher challenge again. Longer than level 1, and wears the player down a bit.
XX-3: Should be the longest level, but not necessarily the hardest. If not completed well, puts the player in a bad position time-wise for level 4.
XX-4: Sometimes the most difficult level; other times, long and epic; and still others, a race against time because of the time chewed up in levels 2 and 3. Probably many action enemies or many more mines than usual. Sometimes leans toward the frustrating end, something that should be avoided in most episodes.

User avatar
Secretariat Ain't Got Nuthin' On This Shit
Posts: 521
Joined: 2009.01.08 (05:03)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/
MBTI Type: ISTJ
Location: Huntington, WV

Postby Ampersand » 2009.06.17 (19:15)

SkyPanda wrote:It doesn't really matter at all when it comes to map packs, for two reasons.

Firstly, when playing a pack in userlevels there is no total episode time, which was what made the composition of the episodes in the actual game so important. In userlevels, you get 90 seconds for each map. You can't change that. Secondly, in userlevels mode there's no guarantee that the maps will be played in the order you intend them to be played. I sure as hell never play a pack in order, or even in one sitting. That's why carefully arranging the content of your pack might be a huge waste of time.


The most important thing when it comes to pack organisation is grabbing the players attention and keeping them hooked. Make sure that you put some of the best maps in the first few sections of the pack, so that they appear on the first page in userlevels. Spread the rest of the good maps throughout, so that the quality of the pack doesn't fall away towards the end. Make sure there's also a couple of interesting, artsy or unique maps on the first page, to further get the players attention. Also, a wide variety is crucial. If the first ten maps in order are all the same, then i'm not going to play your pack. Shake it up right from the start.

I know that's not what the topic asks, though. Maybe if v1.5 has user episodes, then organising packs into episodes will become more important. At this stage, i'd be wondering why you want to organise them into 'episodes' anyway. There's really no point, why not try something unique?
I dunno. Legacy spent months perfecting Episode time in anticipation for just that very thing. We even made a couple of the harder episodes towards the end of the packs specifically difficult to beat in under the episode time limit. Was it a waste of time? Definitely not. Each person that played through Legacy may not play it as it's intended to be played, but once v1.5 drops, Legacy won't need to modify a thing, whereas every other pack in existence will have to re-release or perhaps even become obsolete because they no longer work. So, I dunno about the rest of the mappacks that were released, but Legacy, at least, spent *ages* perfecting the art of episode, regardless of whether the userlevels format supports it or not. I suppose we'll see once v1.5 drops, won't we? =D

As for the second part, I agree wholeheartedly. blue_tetris once commented on map-packs and novelty, and while I can no longer find it, it was an amazing comment. But even so, during Ampersand, we did 199-5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, and 199-A, B, C, D, and E for that very same 'unique' feeling.
Image
mintnut wrote:Oh my life, STRAP ON A PAIR! Get over it, make better maps, innit?
Posts from the old forums: 11,194

User avatar
The 700 Club
Posts: 744
Joined: 2008.10.17 (00:28)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/BionicCryonic
Location: Lethal Lava Land

Postby Yoshimo » 2009.06.18 (01:47)

29403 wrote:There are many examples of this. It's a rough guide. It's not meant to be precise to the yoctometre.
Fixed. Also, 0 and 1 should be fun, not to much gold though. 2 should have a cache of gold somewhere or just have a lot gold spread out. 3 should be hard, low gold content. 4 should be really hard and have some gold caches, but not to much open gold; add one final chance for a highscore...
spoiler

Image
Image


dreams slip through our fingers like hott slut sexxx
Posts: 3896
Joined: 2009.01.14 (15:41)
NUMA Profile: http://nmaps.net/user/Tunco123
MBTI Type: INTJ
Location: Istanbul

Postby Tunco » 2009.06.18 (08:05)

BionicCryonic wrote: Fixed. Also, 0 and 1 should be fun, not to much gold though. 2 should have a cache of gold somewhere or just have a lot gold spread out. 3 should be hard, low gold content. 4 should be really hard and have some gold caches, but not to much open gold; add one final chance for a highscore...
It should be opposite.
0 and 1 should be fun, contain a lot of gold for further levels. 3 can be climax (instead of 4) or it can be just harder than 2. 4 can be a last chance for highscoring (if 3 is the climax) or else, you can do 4 harder other levels in the episode.
spoiler

Image



Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests