A suggestion

[blackson]

Lately, I've noticed that maps are being submitted at a very high rate. This speed of maps being posted is overwhelming the hotmaps page. 7/10 times I go to hotmaps, I see 10 maps with no comments or rates. That's messed up. My suggestion, Change the Float system.

Rates need to have a bigger effect, to fight back against the frequent submissions. I don't know exactly how the current system works (snooped around, found nothing) but I think I know enough to explain what I'm thinking.

The maps float value will determine how long it stays on the page. This value is found with the formula FV=m+x. m being that map's number, and x being the rating side (I do not know the exact formula to find x, but the number of rates, and average rates are used to calculate this). Now, if we increase the value of x, we make ratings have a greater effect on the Float Value and thus, have a chance on the hotmaps page (Eg. FV=m+1.2x). However, increasing the effectiveness of a rating could keep maps like N-arts with 5/5 by 40 on the page much, much longer. I simple solution to this would to make yx>/= z. y being the added value to the rating portion, and z being a fairly high number. If x becomes greater to z, then it is automatically set = to z, to prevent maps from staying on the page for too long, because of the added rate effect. Basically, once a map gets a certain number of rates, that map will have the same Float Value, no matter how many more ratings it gets.

My two cents.

[SkyPanda]

This seems like a pretty neat idea

[jackass]

Cool idea :)

[Amadeus]

That is a good idea
I think though also, a simple solution that will help on top of what you are saying if there is some kind of map submitting limit
Often the hot maps is clogged with beginner's maps because they make them so quickly

[origami_alligator]

Your post has a couple flaws.

First, you started to talk about the submission rate of maps on NUMA and then made a suggestion about how to make the float/sink system work to make ratings be weighted more so that some maps stay on the Hot Maps page longer.

Second, this won't work. Changing the weight that ratings have on a map won't change the number of map submissions. Even if you reached (z), if an influx of maps came along then a map that has reached value (z) will be knocked off the Hot Maps page like any other map would. Also, would this really be an issue if people just rated maps? That is the solution to having a Hot Maps page that works: you actually have to rate maps rather than skipping over them. By saying that you see a bunch of unrated maps with no comments, what does that prove? That you're also a user that skips over unrated maps with no comments?

Finally, I don't understand exactly what you're trying to get at. If you want to curb the number of maps a person can submit in a day then we need to push for someone to make that simple little addition that prevents people from posting 14 maps in a row. If you want to add more weight to ratings and then have a limit on the float number then maybe you should have started out talking about just that.

Also, wouldn't rating a map that has reached value (z) just keep it at value (z) until it dropped below (z)? Wouldn't continuously rating that map even after it dropped bump it back up to value (z)?

I'm all for curbing map submissions and for limiting float numbers. I'm not for adding weight to ratings. Personally, I'm still waiting for adding a map to your favourites to have more float value than rating 5.

[MattKestrel]

I'm gonna put my idea out there in this thread, so here goes. What about, seeing as a NUMA alternative is being produced (at least to my knowledge) why not integrate it into these forums, and only accessible via such? This would drastically reduce the number of mappers, and would let things get back to their olden goldness, I presume. Each map would get the attention it deserves.

Otherwise, I could just see NUMA becoming a massive arms race, with more and more mappers proliferating, and thus making it harder and harder for anyone to get attention, thus more maps posted, yadayadayada. Vicious circle :/

[epigone]

I'm very leery about anything that is going to increase the importance of rates. I don't think there is anything wrong with the way NUMA is set up now. I always look through more than one page anyway, so it doesn't matter to me how quickly maps are pushed off the page.

[mintnut]

Making some kind of elite area for only brilliant maps gets flaunted around here so often, yet it's a terrible suggestion on two points.

First of all, you massively restrict accessibility into the community. If a new user cannot place his maps alongside a veteran user, how will new users ever come into the community. People's stay within the metanet ecosystem is incredibly transient. I first started browsing numa about 5 years ago, and in that time, I've seen generations of users pass by, and in order for the community, you have to have new blood being initiated.

Forming an alternative archive, which has some kind of barrier to entry will deter new users. How many of the active residents would frequent numa if they could go elsewhere, somewhere they could be guaranteed a certain quality of map? I feel safe in the assumption that only a minority would. This will indefinitely lead to a stagnation of quality, innovation and population. Eventually, everyone will leave, but there won't be a next generation to replace them.

Secondly, how will you make the distinction between mapmakers, or maps. The quality of maps is entirely subjective. Just because you know in your mind what you like, and what you want to see more of, does not mean that you have some universally applicable rubric against which all maps can be measured. So how will you decide who to let through the gates of elite-numa? You can't base it upon the age of the user, since that has no bearing on quality. Equally, you cannot base it in quantity of maps.

As for changing the flotation, southpaw has already put forward why this probably would not have your desired effect, and I wholeheartedly agree with him on this matter. At the end of the day, for the good of the community, it should be our duty to wade through the large amount of maps submitted to find what we're looking for. Numa has no responsibility to you to adjust to everyone's taste, and it has no real way of doing so anyway.

The lack of comments and rates is not just due to the large amounts of poor maps, they have almost always been there. Ever since I joined numa the newest maps page has suffered from a great deal of poor maps, but users have to be willing to put up with that, and wade through them to get the maps they want, and to keep the community alive in the long run, by commenting, and to a lesser extent rating.

------------------------------------------------

On an unrelated note, while I was typing this, I had an idea. Would it be feasible to introduce some kind of, suggestion service into numa? Basically, based upon maps in your favourites list, numa will provide suggested maps, based upon the tastes of other users who share favourites with you. I have no idea quite how this would be done, and so cannot know whether this would be easy or difficult to code, or for that matter scale towards the size of the userbase. But it would be cool.

[blackson]

Second, this won't work. Changing the weight that ratings have on a map won't change the number of map submissions. Even if you reached (z), if an influx of maps came along then a map that has reached value (z) will be knocked off the Hot Maps page like any other map would. Also, would this really be an issue if people just rated maps? That is the solution to having a Hot Maps page that works: you actually have to rate maps rather than skipping over them. By saying that you see a bunch of unrated maps with no comments, what does that prove? That you're also a user that skips over unrated maps with no comments?

I'm not trying to change the number of map submissions. I'm trying to give maps a chance on the page. Now, if you reached z, don't you think your map got enough attention? Also, I'm not trying to put more emphasis on ratings. Commenting a map, and rating it go hand in hand, and ratings will bring more comments; that's what everyone wants.

Finally, I don't understand exactly what you're trying to get at. If you want to curb the number of maps a person can submit in a day then we need to push for someone to make that simple little addition that prevents people from posting 14 maps in a row. If you want to add more weight to ratings and then have a limit on the float number then maybe you should have started out talking about just that.

I'm not trying to limit the number of maps you can post. I'm just trying to give maps a chance to get some attention.

Also, wouldn't rating a map that has reached value (z) just keep it at value (z) until it dropped below (z)? Wouldn't continuously rating that map even after it dropped bump it back up to value (z)?

I'm all for curbing map submissions and for limiting float numbers. I'm not for adding weight to ratings. Personally, I'm still waiting for adding a map to your favourites to have more float value than rating 5.

Yes. Remember that Tetris N-art map that everyone thought was cool, but then was hated because it stayed on the page for so long? What I'm saying is that once a map gets to a certain number of ratings, say 40, it can't remain on the page. The rating contribution to the Float value will stop growing, and it will come off the page faster. Once it's reached z it's gotten more then enough attention, and it will get even more after it has slipped off the page.

[blackson]

Numa has no responsibility to you to adjust to everyone's taste, and it has no real way of doing so anyway.

It should. This is why AltArc is being formed, to give users a say on how the site's performed. The majority is always happy.

On an unrelated note, while I was typing this, I had an idea. Would it be feasible to introduce some kind of, suggestion service into numa? Basically, based upon maps in your favourites list, numa will provide suggested maps, based upon the tastes of other users who share favourites with you. I have no idea quite how this would be done, and so cannot know whether this would be easy or difficult to code, or for that matter scale towards the size of the userbase. But it would be cool.

<3333

[toasters]

On an unrelated note, while I was typing this, I had an idea. Would it be feasible to introduce some kind of, suggestion service into numa? Basically, based upon maps in your favourites list, numa will provide suggested maps, based upon the tastes of other users who share favourites with you. I have no idea quite how this would be done, and so cannot know whether this would be easy or difficult to code, or for that matter scale towards the size of the userbase. But it would be cool.

I don't really see what could be used to make that kind of a feature. It seems similar to what Pandora Radio does, but Pandora has some pretty intense concepts going on in the background. From what I understand they've collected hundreds of musical traits like melody, rhythm, songwriting and what not, and then suggest music you might like based on those traits. For a suggestion system like that on NUMA there would have to be some way of comparing the data between maps and being able to say one is a such and such action map, a DDA, a tileset art or whatever. At least that's what it seems like to me. And that sounds hard. But if this could somehow be created, I would love it.

[blackson]

[quote="toasters] I don't really see what could be used to make that kind of a feature. It seems similar to what Pandora Radio does, but Pandora has some pretty intense concepts going on in the background. From what I understand they've collected hundreds of musical traits like melody, rhythm, songwriting and what not, and then suggest music you might like based on those traits. For a suggestion system like that on NUMA there would have to be some way of comparing the data between maps and being able to say one is a such and such action map, a DDA, a tileset art or whatever. At least that's what it seems like to me. And that sounds hard. But if this could somehow be created, I would love it.[/quote]

Maybe other users could choose from a category of mapping traits to describe a map?

[Fraxtil]

No formula based upon re-ordering will give maps more views, or unclog the Hot Maps page. The problem is with the number of maps being submitted, and the attention span of viewers.

[LittleViking]

Maybe it's time that Numa's default page gets bumped up from 10 maps to 25?

Also, suggested maps was a feature on old Numa. As for "intense concepts" and "musical traits like melody, rhythm, songwriting" ... Ahem, every map on Numa has tags on it. For every action map you favorite, it's more likely that you'll enjoy another action map. For every tileset you favorite, it's more likely you'll want to see new tilesets. For every Oklahoma map, you.. Oh, there's still only one Oklahoma map on Numa. Well. The other tags will still work.

[mintnut]

That suggestion thing, er. What I meant:

Say, mintnut has favourited maps x, y, and z. Littleviking also has those maps in his favourites, in addition to maps p, q, r, and s. Numa offers mintnut one of p, q, r, or s, under the assumption that mintnut may also be interested in these maps.

[origami_alligator]

I'm not trying to change the number of map submissions. I'm trying to give maps a chance on the page. Now, if you reached z, don't you think your map got enough attention? Also, I'm not trying to put more emphasis on ratings. Commenting a map, and rating it go hand in hand, and ratings will bring more comments; that's what everyone wants.

I've seen a map get 7 ratings and no comments, and then I've seen a map get 15 comments and no ratings. You've been around long enough to see this happen as well, Blackson, so I'm surprised that you think ratings mean comments. They rarely do, and if they do, it's the kind of comment that says, "I rated a 4, great job!" instead of the kind of comment that says, "I liked the map fair enough, but the chaingun drone in the upper right-hand side was annoying. The gold placement was odd at times, but you connected the whole map together very well. Overall a 4."
Not to mention that a great deal of /your/ comments rarely mean anything beyond "[insert rating here] asdf," or similar.

Rereading your first post, you say that "x [is] the rating side (I do not know the exact formula to find x, but the number of rates, and average rates are used to calculate this)" and then you go on to give an example of (FV=m+1.2x). I don't know how it crossed your mind that MULTIPLYING THE RATING OF THE FORMULA DID NOT INCREASE THE EMPHASIS ON RATINGS. Because it obviously does increase the emphasis that a rating has on the float value. You're basically saying, through this math, that you want maps to stay up longer based on higher votes until it reaches some value at which point it is dropped off the Hot Maps page at a decent rate.

I'm not trying to limit the number of maps you can post. I'm just trying to give maps a chance to get some attention.
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Yes. Remember that Tetris N-art map that everyone thought was cool, but then was hated because it stayed on the page for so long? What I'm saying is that once a map gets to a certain number of ratings, say 40, it can't remain on the page. The rating contribution to the Float value will stop growing, and it will come off the page faster. Once it's reached z it's gotten more then enough attention, and it will get even more after it has slipped off the page.

I think limiting map submissions is/was a wonderful thing. I wonder why you're not trying to limit it. I'd rather have people limited to 3 maps in a 12-hour period (that's 6 maps per day, far more than enough) rather than being able to post 14 maps in 2 minutes or even 10 maps in a day.
---
I see what you're saying now. You want the number of rates to be the determining factor of when a map gets pushed off the Hot Maps page. I don't know exactly how I feel about that...

[blackson]

I've seen a map get 7 ratings and no comments, and then I've seen a map get 15 comments and no ratings. You've been around long enough to see this happen as well, Blackson, so I'm surprised that you think ratings mean comments. They rarely do, and if they do, it's the kind of comment that says, "I rated a 4, great job!" instead of the kind of comment that says, "I liked the map fair enough, but the chaingun drone in the upper right-hand side was annoying. The gold placement was odd at times, but you connected the whole map together very well. Overall a 4."
Not to mention that a great deal of /your/ comments rarely mean anything beyond "[insert rating here] asdf," or similar.

How can someone critique a map he never played? Of course rates won't always warrant a comment, but surely they would give it a better chance! You're basing this idea over two instances. I realize that some people don't always give perfect comments, and I'm sorry?

Rereading your first post, you say that "x [is] the rating side (I do not know the exact formula to find x, but the number of rates, and average rates are used to calculate this)" and then you go on to give an example of (FV=m+1.2x). I don't know how it crossed your mind that MULTIPLYING THE RATING OF THE FORMULA DID NOT INCREASE THE EMPHASIS ON RATINGS. Because it obviously does increase the emphasis that a rating has on the float value. You're basically saying, through this math, that you want maps to stay up longer based on higher votes until it reaches some value at which point it is dropped off the Hot Maps page at a decent rate.

First of all, this value 'z' should rarely be reached. It's only for maps that get too much out of this change.

Secondly, the old system worked, did it not? Maps with rates stayed on a got more attention then ones that didn't. Recently, more maps are being submitted. The rate of maps being submitted has gone up drastically; shouldn't we counter that with the value of a rate to keep the working balance?

---

I see what you're saying now. You want the number of rates to be the determining factor of when a map gets pushed off the Hot Maps page. I don't know exactly how I feel about that...

Not really. The working balance is off. If we say m=f (m being maps submitted, f being float system) and we multiply m by a certain variable, by god, shouldn't we multiply f as well!?

[origami_alligator]

How can someone critique a map he never played? Of course rates won't always warrant a comment, but surely they would give it a better chance! You're basing this idea over two instances. I realize that some people don't always give perfect comments, and I'm sorry?

It's nothing, really. My thought was, from how I read it, that you thought ratings would warrant more comments, or that you thought they would spark more ideal comments, when neither of those are the case. Ratings and comments are two separate things and hoping for more of one will not necessarily mean more of the other.
And I'm sorry about that comment about your comments, but it seems like you're slightly hypocritical.

First of all, this value 'z' should rarely be reached. It's only for maps that get too much out of this change.

Secondly, the old system worked, did it not? Maps with rates stayed on a got more attention then ones that didn't. Recently, more maps are being submitted. The rate of maps being submitted has gone up drastically; shouldn't we counter that with the value of a rate to keep the working balance?

What old system? If you're talking about the current system, it still works. Maps with higher ratings and more ratings generally stay on the front page longer.

Not really. The working balance is off. If we say m=f (m being maps submitted, f being float system) and we multiply m by a certain variable, by god, shouldn't we multiply f as well!?

The rate of maps being submitted and the system by which we value those maps don't really equal each other. For starters, (m) already is a variable, while (f) is a constant. We'd have to make (f) a variable based on (m) for your system to work.

I would imagine it'd look something like:
f = mx+b where (m) is the slope and (b) is the y-intercept.
or in other words, (m) is the increase/decrease of maps submitted within some time frame (say 6 hours) and (b) is the float value of a map that has just been submitted and has not received any rating. Variable (x) is the average rating a map has received.

Let's say the float value is 5 minutes. (5)
The percentage of maps within the last 6 hours has increased by 156% (1.56)
A map receives 4 ratings and are the following: {4, 4, 5, 3}. Added together, our (x) value becomes (4+4+5+3)/4 = 16/4 = 4.
By the time all 4 of these votes have been cast, 3 minutes has gone by, so we will subtract 3 from our float value (b).

f = (1.56)4 + (5-3)
f = 6.24 + 2
f = 8.24

That map will be up for the next 8.24 minutes if it receives no votes.

I'm pretty sure the float system doesn't work like that. And all this math was for absolutely no reason. I've even forgotten now what point I was trying to prove. I don't even know if this math makes sense, but oh well. I had fun doing it.

[Atilla]

That suggestion thing, er. What I meant:

Say, mintnut has favourited maps x, y, and z. Littleviking also has those maps in his favourites, in addition to maps p, q, r, and s. Numa offers mintnut one of p, q, r, or s, under the assumption that mintnut may also be interested in these maps.

We used to have a system like that. It was entirely useless because it always gave you the same bunch of maps, which every man and his dog had favourited. Really, you might as well have just been browsing the top rated.

Also, I think increasing the effect of votes on floating will either 1. not work or 2. result in a horde of people whining about their newest maps getting kicked off the first page too quickly because there are half a dozen highly-rated maps cluttering it up.

[otters~1]

I highly support limiting all users to one map per 24 hours. That would be easy to implement and would definitely accomplish something.

[blackson]

I highly support limiting all users to one map per 24 hours. That would be easy to implement and would definitely accomplish something.

I strongly disagree. I've posted up to 5 maps in a day, all of which complied with the 2 per page limit. It's a good system as it is.

(I'm talking about the number of maps you can post)

[BNW]

I don't have a problem with the number of maps that are submitted, I have a problem with the quality of maps that are submitted. I realize that I can't do anything about that, but I hate running through the Hot Maps page and seeing 7 or 8 of the 10 maps be "nooby" maps that have objects strewn everywhere and tilesets that barely work. This has only been a recent thing (few months) because of the large influx of new mappers. Just a little thing I wanted to get out.

I agree with LV on extending the number of maps from 10 to 25, considering we have no limit on the number of maps that can be submitted.

[LittleViking]

This has only been a recent thing (few months) because of the large influx of new mappers. Just a little thing I wanted to get out.

Ahah. I've heard that line repeated probably every other month for the last four years. New mappers have always been around and always will be. Just like your grandparents will tell you how kids these days are ungrateful punks, mappers that have been on Numa for more than three months will talk about how great things used to be.

[otters~1]

I highly support limiting all users to one map per 24 hours. That would be easy to implement and would definitely accomplish something.

I strongly disagree. I've posted up to 5 maps in a day, all of which complied with the 2 per page limit. It's a good system as it is.

(I'm talking about the number of maps you can post)

Sure, but did you really need to post all those maps in one day? Are you sure they got the same amount of attention that they otherwise might have? I've found that publishing a map once a month or so is conducive to more comments.

[Leaff]

I think the max float system would be better if it was after a certain amount of time it would start to "sink". Remember that tidal wave map that was on Hot Maps for most of yesterday? "Cumbre Vieja," I think. That's on the second page as I type this. I know it's awesome, but it's taking attention away from other maps.
And I agree with the idea of 25 maps on the Hot Maps page.