Metanet 0ths Thread

[EddyMataGallos]

You're right with this but I meant something little different. By playing more levels, time you need to beat/perfect level is getting shorter. Highscore says nothing about it, because you don't know how much time player needed to take it. Arcade mode is perfect idea for this. But I don't say that you don't need to repeat a lot, that's needed, too.

Btw. Eddy, can you complete all collumns on arcade mode?

Given how easy N v2.0 is? I haven't tried it out, but I'd say most people can. Levels are really short and straightforward dude, and theres a shitload of gold, couldn't be easier. Just remember the Holiday Challenge to get an idea of which scores you can get on arcade mode (that was 64 levels on a row). Over 1000 seconds.

As for your diversity point, by playing more levels, how are you gonna perfect them earlier if at that time you don't even know whats needed to perfect a level? Knowing those things takes the skill you have to develop by playing hard, not diverse. The more skill you develop, the more subtle things you are able to notice and pull off, which are needed to come closer and closer to max. If you don't develop your skill on beforehand, theres no way you are going to be able perfect levels as soon as a highscorer would (probably won't come as close regardless the time spent). So I still mantain my point.

Same goes for highscoring mode. Sure it doesn't tell how much the player took to get it, but you can bet it took way shorter than a novice would have taken to do it. And the same goes for beating levels really. The more skill you develop, the faster you will beat levels. Im sure any highscorer would beat a level faster than a regular player who has beaten all NUMA maps, and would also get closer to max earlier. All those things are directly related to the skill and attained the same way: repetition and hard gaming, not necessarily varied (Metanet levels are enough).

Thats my opinion but I believe most highscorers would tell you the same. Its been a lot of years and hours of playing now, and I'm talking from the experience I've had, if I compare myself now with the past Eddy thats what I can tell you, hard gaming is what has made me improve the most. And I used to play lots of NUMA maps before highscoring Metanet, dedicating time, but thats just not the way (neither to beat levels faster, perfect them faster, get closer to perfect, or anything).

By playing more levels, time you need to beat/perfect level is getting shorter.

Thats what you are feeling am I right? Thats just because you are developing your skill thanks to the TIME you are spending, not because you are playing a lot of maps/a diversity, skill is not like getting a rich culture knowledge. At first thats more than enough to improve your skills, just playing and spending time beating levels, but if you keep improving there will be a point when that thing you are doing just won't be enough, it will be useless.

You reach a point where improvement will ONLY come by playing so hard you can actually practise those subtle things, or else how are you going to develop your skill on them? For that you will need hardcore repetition. Playing more levels only helps on the first phase, to call it some way.

Honestly no highscorer would improve at all by just playing a lot of levels, even if they develop some time on them, the only way is them to develop a lot of time on them, so much they dont have time to do that on a lot of levels, so not care about diversity. (Because theres just not time to play a lot of levels if you actually want to do your best on them, 2-3 dedicated 0ths and you are tired for the rest of the day haha).

[_danielr_]

Although I'm a speedrunner, I think I can vouch for this. A few years back, when I played levels for fun (I know, right?), it took me ages to fully master a level, and even then, OJ or someone similar would take my 0th within a matter minutes. Now, looking back at the same levels - despite not having played them for years - I can run off a top 5 run in only a few tries. This I credit wholly to taking up competitive play.

[EddyMataGallos]

Although I'm a speedrunner, I think I can vouch for this. A few years back, when I played levels for fun (I know, right?), it took me ages to fully master a level, and even then, OJ or someone similar would take my 0th within a matter minutes. Now, looking back at the same levels - despite not having played them for years - I can run off a top 5 run in only a few tries. This I credit wholly to taking up competitive play.

Yep this is an awesome example thanks dan, sums up my point, and happens with all competitive players (highscorers/speedrunners). When I said highscorers of course I also meant speedrunners, its just a habit. But skill is skill regardless the playing mode, sorry for the misunderstanding.

I understand him though, when I first beat N v1.4, and then all the NUMA playing, I felt way more skilled than when I started, obviously. But thats it, you won't go much further with that, you need the comp.

[golf]

If I can piggyback on what Eddy (towerpost much? lol) and dan have been saying, repetition and playing something hardcore really is the best way to improve your skills. For example, I knew one of the skills I really wanted to improve on was cornerjumping. To do that, I couldn't just play any amount of random levels; I chose one that had a prominent cj right near the start of the level. Took me a while, but I could eventually get that jump consistently, and once I was able to do that I could do a cj in any other map so much easier than I could before. Same thing goes for triple jumps on tiles and even something as simple as double jumping on bounceblocks.

Same goes for highscoring mode. Sure it doesn't tell how much the player took to get it, but you can bet it took way shorter than a novice would have taken to do it.

If you ever saw me really try at a level you might rethink that statement :-P It takes me a ridiculous amount of time compared to you, van, macro, jp, dan, and everybody else to get comparable runs. Probably the best example of that is 63-3. I took the 0th after a solid week of playing it 4+ hours a night, and then TFK comes along with a completely new route and beats me by almost a second in under an hour of me posting about that run. My episode highscore runs always take me at least an hour to complete, and lasting 2.5 to 3 hours is not unexpected for me on that. Daniel's point is also true with me though, I can usually get a completion on even the toughest Metanet levels within a few minutes, and it will likely be a pretty decent highscore although maybe not a top5 or even top10.

[EddyMataGallos]

If you ever saw me really try at a level you might rethink that statement :-P It takes me a ridiculous amount of time compared to you, van, macro, jp, dan, and everybody else to get comparable runs. Probably the best example of that is 63-3. I took the 0th after a solid week of playing it 4+ hours a night, and then TFK comes along with a completely new route and beats me by almost a second in under an hour of me posting about that run. My episode highscore runs always take me at least an hour to complete, and lasting 2.5 to 3 hours is not unexpected for me on that. Daniel's point is also true with me though, I can usually get a completion on even the toughest Metanet levels within a few minutes, and it will likely be a pretty decent highscore although maybe not a top5 or even top10.

But still, as you said at the end yourself; playing, beating and even getting decent scores takes you a few minutes and not many tries (probably first completion), and we are talking about Metanet levels, that was my point much. I guess 0ths can be a different story or that there can be exceptions, or whatever, but the overall idea is still there.

Haha and yeah I ranted a lot there, I tend to be very redundant and try to explain the same thing over several different points of view, in an attempt to make my arguments more solid I guess, not sure how that works :P

[ska]

Personally, demo mode on NReality revolutionised how I played the game. Not only can I now compare routes and minor variations, but I can pick flaws in an opponent's run; even very subtle ones, and try to capitalise on those flaws. As Eddy, Dan and golf have already mentioned, level repetition against elite players on competitive maps will fast-track your playing ability. The highscores boards are like pure capitalism. Sink or swim... only the best runs will stand the test of time.

[vankusss]

Kool - haha yea, I feel that way, too. The amount of time it took me to get good runs was at least double or triple of the time it took xaelar/Eddy. I spent like 2-3 weeks on 55-0, trying to get the double cj route :/ Also like a week on 89-4 (though that was constant battle with Eddy).
ska yea demo mode is really cool, I was often surprised where people were losing frames, never would've guessed.

[_danielr_]

Personally, demo mode on NReality revolutionised how I played the game.

Hell yes. This is invaluable to me.
Another good tool, though no doubt used far less, is 'display state'. My run against Kool's sr on 0-4 is a good example. I kept trying it over and over, yet got 165 frames each time. Eventually I gave in, and watched his run using the tool - and what did I see? An insignificant left tap. With this, I was able to equal 164.

[ska]

Kool - haha yea, I feel that way, too.

Yeah - totally agree... Kool's comment is probably the most insightful thing I've ever read on the Internet. If it wasn't for Kool's insight, I don't know if I could go on living.

[panstromek]

Oh, I didn't want to start fight there... again :). And also I don't want to disparage hard playing. I just wanted to point out that it is good to play variety of levels. It is of course better to play hard no matter what level it is (as you said). You talk about different thing than me.

Thats what you are feeling am I right? Thats just because you are developing your skill thanks to the TIME you are spending, not because you are playing a lot of maps/a diversity, skill is not like getting a rich culture knowledge. At first thats more than enough to improve your skills, just playing and spending time beating levels, but if you keep improving there will be a point when that thing you are doing just won't be enough, it will be useless.

I mean... If I spent that TIME playing just one level, I wouldn't be as "good" as I'm now. So I'm sure it is combination of these elements. For example: I play yoyo, that's skilltoy and it works practically the same with this. I spend a lot of time just trying and trying some new trick just like you spend a lot of time just focusing on one level to perfect it. But the more tricks I can do, learning them is getting easier, so it is better to wait with harder trick, and rather spend that time by trying to do 5 easier tricks. After that, Hard trick seems easier and you learn it pretty quickly so In the end you can do 6 tricks. But If I were trying to do just that one hard trick, I would propably spent more time on it and it would still be not very good. In our community it is something like a rule that it is good to learn as many tricks as possible because it gives you more certainty, even if you don't use that tricks very much.

You guys are in totally different league, so I understand if playing new levels gives nothing to you. But I must say that when I started playing everyday new different levels, I got a lot better. Not in specific steps (jumps etc..), I just feel better certainty when controling ninja, make less mistakes, I'm more accurate etc. I never practiced cj's a lot and right now i just tried it in some level and it is much easier than when I tried it for the first time.

So I agree with you, but I propably can't describe what I really mean as I want, sorry for that, I don't have enough SKILL in english :).


EDIT: Ok, while writing this post, I tried some cornerjumps at 0-4 and realized that it doesn't lag (like usually on my new computer). I didn't know what is going on. After few minutes I opened Nreality again and it was laggy as usual. And than I realized... I had all that time while trying cj's Nv2.0 opened. So Nreality doesn't lag, when you have v2.0 opened. Weird, but works.

[EddyMataGallos]

I see what you mean. Thats because at first you aren't focusing on practising the "subtle things", but basically all basic techniques, for that playing a variety is enough, I totally understand. (I think even just 500 Metanet levels would be enough for that as well). But of course with non-diverse I didn't mean a single level neither, just the Metanet set for example.

But yeah you are right about that men, of course its necessary to practise the easier techniques first, and do whatever is in your hands to master them, then you will have time to improve on the rest. Thats something automatic you won't even notice, its not like you suddently think "ok enough with basic, lets go for the subtle", but rather you just keep playing and if your aim is to improve more and more and to compete, you will be gradually changing your method without even noticing it, unconsciously dedicating more time to single levels and focusing on the subtle. That will come with dedication, the only thing you have to decide is when you are ready to go to highscoring/speedruning, if you go too early probably it won't be beneficial.

[ska]

Yeah... skill improvement is definitely an evolutionary process. You won't see any discernible changes from one run to the next. But if you took say, an episode run I made 6 years ago (e.g. episode 85 under Ben_Schultz_11) and compare it to an episode run I've made recently, (episode 09) you can easily tell which one was made more recently.

[LAT]

nowadays you have to be on performance inhancing drugs to compete just like the tour de France. ill be surprised if theres one clean player out there lol I inject straight into my fingers to get the full effect. M and R need to regulate random drug testing IMO

Actually before I ever even had a highscore I was already aiming for an 0th on 88-0 I eventually got it and it was one of my first highscores if not the first. this was before I found the forums or nreality. aiming high is probably what attributed to my success, but I do see what panstromek is saying also I think he has a point.

That's one crazy run eddy on 87-1 I just noticed it, it looks super clean.

[EddyMataGallos]

Thanks lat :) I put together several innovs Ben posted on the forums some time ago to get that lead.
I didn't know 88-0 was your first 0th, funny that was my 2nd :P
I have checked some old NHigh files and the first one in which you have a 0th, it appears to be 68-4, though I supose 88-0 was taken before that.

I recently compiled a collection of NHigh files (includes the files from TRO, ska, and myself), you might be interested (or not) but if so:

Code: Select all

Files by year:
2006 - 3
2007 - 5
2008 - 6
2009 - 8
2010 - 93
2011 - 61
2012 - 48
2013 - 1
Total: 228 (Actual amount is 225, but a few files are doubled).
I also put all old files, from 06 to 09, on a separate folder for easiness.

Download: http://www.mediafire.com/?bhfyzhka4d1bcte

[james_S]

Hi I saw what Panstromek said here, I would agree that its a decent question. I can add that I think is that Eddy(+highscorers) are right because 'improvisation' which I'd say you're talking about attaining, although may seem cool, is a lie and its crap -you're just dredging up solutions from memory and if you remember better how to avoid rockets coming at you from 3 directions you're likely to have enough time to think up a way to avoid a rocket from a 4th direction before you get exploded.

Oh and by ''rockets from 3 directions'' I'm actually talking about basic avoidance techniques on which other avoidance is based (and hence can usually be practised on a simple metanet map)

ps. The new Lookatthis is really cool!

reg. performance enhancing drugs lolol -i think its good to run your hands under hot water, but thats coming from the slowest chimneyer here

[james_S]

also about working out routes skills, there's quite a few 'messy' maps on N2 userlevels and I think those can require extra thinking. And anyway of course there's a game enjoyment factor also......

[golf]

reg. performance enhancing drugs lolol -i think its good to run your hands under hot water, but thats coming from the slowest chimneyer here

I challenge you to a slowest chimneying contest! Out of all the serious 1.4 highscorers I can say without a doubt that I have the slowest chimney skills of the bunch. In fact, if you have 1.4 take a look at my 2-2 or 89-0 runs, those are both my max chimney speed.

[ska]

reg. performance enhancing drugs lolol -i think its good to run your hands under hot water, but thats coming from the slowest chimneyer here

I challenge you to a slowest chimneying contest! Out of all the serious 1.4 highscorers I can say without a doubt that I have the slowest chimney skills of the bunch. In fact, if you have 1.4 take a look at my 2-2 or 89-0 runs, those are both my max chimney speed.

lol golf, what a load of shit. May I refer to your quote at the bottom of your signature?

[MiBeM]

Talking about chimneying, I've also always been terrible at it. Good to know I'm not alone :P

[panstromek]

Chimneying is good basic for some double/triple skill jumps. To do best you must focus on loosening (is it right word?) your hand very much.

[macrohenry]

I've always been wondering how people can do a perfect or almost perfect chimney while I can hardly do a single jnj,for example for htcjs.

[LAT]

check my 83-4 im probably the only person who didn't die from chimneying too fast at the end and I could never make a highscore on 89-0 or 2-2 levels like that but ive managed to make up for it in other areas. For me the longer the level the better.

[ska]

I've always been wondering how people can do a perfect or almost perfect chimney while I can hardly do a single jnj,for example for htcjs.

I've been able to do consecutive jnj's (3 jumps is probably my record on a Metanet map separated by a slight break, however) but I can't do it consistently. I'm not sure how people like kool can sustain a burst of 16 jnj's (well 15 out of 16 anyway) though without inducing some kind of epileptic seizure. :P

[EddyMataGallos]

I agree macro, the best I can do is a single jnj when a certain challenge requires it (or sometimes on the starting wj if its worth it), which already gives me enough trouble. Certainly not concatenating two of those together, that would be impossible for me. The thing is that frame perfect chimneying barely helps on highscoring, just on really short levels that depend substantially on that specific part, but as for the rest, its much more important being clean. The same for speedrunning, unless the level depends highly on chimneying.

Chimneying is good basic for some double/triple skill jumps.

While that can be true for a few examples in which frame perfect is required (like 79-4 I believe, in which case I go for the fastest I can), in most cases its pure timing. Its not based on speed at all, neither double jump on tiles nor on bounce blocks. As an advice: In order to being able to do them consistently you have to get the timing of it, and then you will be able to adapt to all kinds of situations. If you base it on speed you will most likely fail most of the times, which is what happens to most people (myself included) when they first start trying those tricks out, thinking that doing fast is the technique. In reality sometimes they can be pretty slow indeed, but always controlled.

To do best you must focus on loosening (is it right word?) your hand very much.

Yep this might be possible, I think different people use different techniques, personally I can't do that loosening trick. I go for the vibrating method, I have to keep tension which leaves my arm unusable after some minutes of hard chimneying haha.

check my 83-4 im probably the only person who didn't die from chimneying too fast at the end and I could never make a highscore on 89-0 or 2-2 levels like that but ive managed to make up for it in other areas. For me the longer the level the better.

That reminds me how close you were to score in all levels, man you are still close after so many years (over 560 I think). With some effort now you could go for those 599 Top-20 scores bro Im sure, top-20s are not 0ths.

I've been able to do consecutive jnj's (3 jumps is probably my record on a Metanet map separated by a slight break, however) but I can't do it consistently. I'm not sure how people like kool can sustain a burst of 16 jnj's (well 15 out of 16 anyway) though without inducing some kind of epileptic seizure. :P

Hehe yeah I agree, I'd like to know his technique, not sure if its single shift.
As for the chimneying in 129-1, it doesn't really seem too fast, but well timed (I believe that trick depnds highly on your last wj and the position you make it, you can make it with really slow chimneys).

[_danielr_]

My hand sort of goes into spasm mode for really long chimneys.
On a somewhat completely unrelated note, where is OutrightOJ these days??