Keyboard layouts

Talk about computers, hardware, applications, and consumer electronics.

Which keyboard layout do you prefer to use?

QWERTY (or similar)
28
88%
Dvorak
4
13%
Other
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 32

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Postby Heartattack » 2010.10.01 (04:34)

hairscapades wrote:
Heartattack wrote:That's weird, most people type a lot faster when they don't have to think about what they're going to say next.
Can you provide a citation for this or is this independent research?
Purely based on observation and what my friends say. I'll take a look see and see if I can't find something more reliable.

Edit: I haven't found anything on transcription yet, but this is an article on QWERTY vs Dvorak. It's pretty lengthy, but there's a ton of interesting information that might call what you believe about the superiority of your chosen keyboard into question.
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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2010.10.01 (07:29)

Heartattack wrote:I haven't found anything on transcription yet, but this is an article on QWERTY vs Dvorak. It's pretty lengthy, but there's a ton of interesting information that might call what you believe about the superiority of your chosen keyboard into question.
This article is fucking bullshit.

Summary:
I & II. Proof That I Know Economics Buzzwords

Markets, assets, externalities. Excess inertia. Market failure, market failure, externalities, market failure. The overwhelming majority of literature concludes that Dvorak is superior. Market failure. Excess Inertia. Market failure.

III & IV. Effective Argument For My Opponent's Case Despite Attempt At The Opposite

A. The Literature, Examples On How To Misread It

Now, there may have been this multitude of Navy experiments which conclusively showed the Dvorak layout to be extremely easy to learn and to surpass Qwerty speeds considerably for the full range of unremarkable to talented individuals, but these were totally conducted by the Navy, and Dr. Dvorak himself was distantly affiliated with the Navy! Yes, gasp you should. How odd that typographic expert Dr. Dvorak would produce an effective product for an institution that paid him to do so, don't you think? How convenient for Dr. Dvorak that his expertise ended up serving him well in the relevant field.
Dr. Dvorak had financial stake in these experiments, as expert typists are known internationally to be obscenely wealthy fucking rockstars, and the glitz and glamour of the typewriter layout "game" motivated him to doctor the results of these experiments from across the globe using his psychic powers.

In this one study, for example, 7th graders freshly trained on Dvorak fucking schooled high schoolers who got more practice but on Qwerty. But because the amount of practice was off (*cough* granting the advantage to Qwerty *cough*), this study is both inconclusive and simultaneously concludes that Qwerty is better some-crazy-how, because fuck logic.

Similarly, lots of other studies consistently say that retraining in Dvorak produces massive gains -- however, the authors of these papers then conclude that Dvorak is superior, so clearly they cannot be trusted. The ignorant among you might fail to realize that their biases must have been built by their future selves already having a preponderance of evidence for Dvorak's superiority before they even started the experiments. Therefore their experiments were biased before they started, because time definitely works that way.

IN FACT, there were totally these two obscure studies we dredged up that show that Dvorak produces smaller (albeit still statistically significant) gains than other studies have shown, and I will for some reason try to flaunt these as reasons to believe Qwerty is better. For example, non-doctor Earle Strong did this experiment where he made typists use randomized keyboards, alphabetic keyboards, Qwerty, and Dvorak, and the primary conclusion was that the most expert of typists didn't actually care about the layout. Now, this may strike you as patently fucking absurd, and that's because it is, but we agree with Strong's recommendation thereafter to... train new typists in Dvorak? Oh, god fucking damnit. Whatever, we're still counting this as a pro-Qwerty paper.
And oh, look, here's a Japanese dude who agrees completely with Dvorak. Let's pretend he disagreed, though.

B. Ergonomics

Dvorak proclaims three major benefits that everyone agrees with:
  1. The loads on the left and right hands are equalized.
  2. The load on the home row is maximized.
  3. The frequency of alternating hand sequences is maximized, and the frequency of same-finger sequences is minimized.
Dvorak was designed with all three in mind, and consequently owns face at all of them. However, while I now incongruously admit that Qwerty's designer was trying intentionally to sabotage typists' speeds, and while I further admit that Qwerty blows goats at A and B, in some rare cases it's still possible to find somewhat common alternating key sequences that use different hands in Qwerty (i.e. the first half of point C). Therefore, they're basically the same in terms of ergonomics.

Also, the first touch-typist (who beat a hunt & pecker who was also using Qwerty by touch-typing at a pathetic 30-something words per minute) said that you type sentences better when you practice them. Despite the fact that I have previously imposed unreasonable standards for Dvorak's studies, I assert without any quantification or even argumentation that practicing arbitrary sentences is actually the largest deciding factor for all touch-typing everywhere.

C. Dvorak Marketed His Layout Poorly

This totally proves anything whatsoever about its effectiveness.

D. Typing Competitions

Here's a list of typing competition champions. All of them used a keyboard layout that was neither Qwerty nor Dvorak. Sorry, I was high when I wrote this, and it seemed relevant then. With nothing whatsoever to say from this entire section about Qwerty or Dvorak, the best I can do to fool your mind into inferring a particular conclusion is to end it with the mention of Qwerty.

V. Conclusions

I have not forgotten any of those economics buzzwords I mentioned in the first section.
Also, Dvorak eats babies. I saw him do it once.
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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Postby Heartattack » 2010.10.01 (13:50)

I didn't say I was backing the article, (nice paraphrasing), I just wanted to provide a different point of view. There /was/ some good information in there, even if you did have to wade through biased bullshit to find it. Normally I don't post such biased sources, but like I said, I was trying to provide a different point of view.
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Postby SlappyMcGee » 2010.10.03 (01:34)

Does anybody have the one-handed RAR of Mirrorboard for Windows posted in the comments of that xkcd? The site seems to be down.
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Postby otters » 2010.10.10 (23:09)

110-120wpm on Dvorak.
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Postby Scrivener » 2010.10.11 (00:03)

I'm up to about 25 - 30 wpm with dvorak now, after almost two weeks. Using it 100% of the time now seeing as when I try to type with qwerty I fail.
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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2010.10.11 (04:25)

Scrivener wrote:I'm up to about 25 - 30 wpm with dvorak now, after almost two weeks. Using it 100% of the time now seeing as when I try to type with qwerty I fail.
Yep, I remember suffering through that period. Try chatting in IRC using Dvorak; it's good practice.

If you had ever touch-typed with Qwerty, you must have gone through the same thing with that layout. Keep at it.
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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Postby Geti » 2010.10.11 (06:38)

Your paraphrasing made me laugh Mr. Tsukatu, cheers.

I use ZXCVBNM., but only cause it's what I've always typed in and I haven't gotten around to looking at anything else.
My wpm is terrible. ~60 says TypeRacer.
◉ LAZORTITS ◉ wrote:It was a bit like me trying to switch to linux on my netbook. Sure, it's faster and does many cool stuff, but it didn't work as well as xp. Maybe this analogy isn't the best.
How did it not work as well?

God I swear, one of these days I'm going to make a distro that skins linux to look like windows XP, and openoffice to look like office 98 or possibly XP, and GDM or similar to look like that dumb pure blue designed-for-vga login screen.. It'll have a start menu and desktop with obtuse yellow icons and all, even make right click on the desktop properties bring up the same bloody poorly ordered config window, get a tweaked wine setup with all the directx stuff patched to work with everything major, install steam and firefox and make all of the warning windows throw that stupid "BOUWMP", but under all those stupid layers make it automatically update everything, deliver useful warnings like "you have an email" but not like "I turned off some startup programs just like the last 100 times you started me up", "you've got 20 viruses cause you were an idiot on the internet" or "windows needs your permission to move these files please fill in your password 5 times" and let the delicious, delicious memory management keep everything nice and smooth and fast, and show it to people and get them to use it for a week or so and then watch them suddenly feel all dizzy and tell me it doesn't work right for no reason at all other than "but I'm not used to that, and you can't play games on it" once I tell them that it's linux, not windows.
I'll call it Winux.

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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2010.10.11 (06:44)

Geti wrote:God I swear, one of these days I'm going to make a distro that skins linux to look like windows XP, and openoffice to look like office 98 or possibly XP, and GDM or similar to look like that dumb pure blue designed-for-vga login screen.. It'll have a start menu and desktop with obtuse yellow icons and all, even make right click on the desktop properties bring up the same bloody poorly ordered config window, get a tweaked wine setup with all the directx stuff patched to work with everything major, install steam and firefox and make all of the warning windows throw that stupid "BOUWMP", but under all those stupid layers make it automatically update everything, deliver useful warnings like "you have an email" but not like "I turned off some startup programs just like the last 100 times you started me up", "you've got 20 viruses cause you were an idiot on the internet" or "windows needs your permission to move these files please fill in your password 5 times" and let the delicious, delicious memory management keep everything nice and smooth and fast, and show it to people and get them to use it for a week or so and then watch them suddenly feel all dizzy and tell me it doesn't work right for no reason at all other than "but I'm not used to that, and you can't play games on it" once I tell them that it's linux, not windows.
The Chinese black market already does this. It claims to sell various copies of Windows that turn out to be Ubuntu skinned to look like Windows.
Also, http://www.ubuntu.online02.com/node/14
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Postby Geti » 2010.10.11 (07:19)

Ubuntu's a little slow though (compared to lightweight/barebones custom setups anyway) but it's good to know other people think the same. It just annoys me when people say linux doesn't work as well as windows does. No offense, Donfuy
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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2010.10.11 (08:33)

Geti wrote:Ubuntu's a little slow though (compared to lightweight/barebones custom setups anyway) but it's good to know other people think the same. It just annoys me when people say linux doesn't work as well as windows does. No offense, Donfuy
So long as the system you choose to emulate is Windows Vista, anything else under the hood will undoubtedly be faster.
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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Postby smartalco » 2010.10.11 (16:45)

Geti wrote:install steam
This is basically my entire problem with linux. I have had it installed a few times on my desktop, but I could just never get used to it and any time I wanted to play a game I had to boot back to Windows. (I realize many games are playable under Wine, but not all of them). The computer labs we use for my comp. sci. classes here at KU all have Fedora installed on them, so I just have VirtualBox installed on both my desktop and laptop with the same version of Fedora as the comp. labs just so I can keep a consistent environment to test things in.
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Postby Geti » 2010.10.12 (06:11)

Steam works pretty well under wine now, though I don't play enough games nowadays to care either way.

Mirrorboard is hard to get used to.
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How do you know that God didn't intend for humans to be the animals' caretakers? He might be appalled that He gave us these animals to use and we're fucking eating them. - Tsukatu
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