N v2.0 Public Beta

[mercuri]

game's gonna be great

[raigan]

thanks for the corrections, please let us know if there are any others (we didn't know some maps were collabs):

TACTICS TO PRACTICE (by sidke and palemoon)
Tantamount to Paramountcy (by BuddyLee and lord_day)

About that floorguard -- that's weird, I don't remember it giving me any problems when we were playing through the maps, but now it seems impossible. We've removed it for now.

We're sorry about any omissions; another factor I forgot to mention was that we needed easier levels for the early episodes, those were definitely harder to find. It's good to know for the future though, so please keep mentioning them.

[mercuri]

i know you already said something about this, but just in case...
do you think it is possible to implement some custom episode feature + highscores related to it (single levels + total episode).
it would be amazing

[epigone]

Raigan, don't you think the top floor guard on Pillars of Heaven (by epigone) is a bit too... ruthless...? Coming from a highscorer XD

I had to bait it to the left, coming from the right, hovering over it for a bit, then going back to the right. That bit really needs to be changed.

Yeah, there's nothing I can stand less than a crapshoot in a game, and I think the minute difference in floor guard mechanics might be responsible, as several other people on IRC also noticed this part of the map displayed a huge spike in difficulty.

Perhaps a mine instead would be better? See what epigone thinks, it's his map after all... maybe he can make the necessary edits himself. Wouldn't like a great map laid to waste because of a single object.

P.S. I'm extremely excited for the next beta revision! >:D Hope it will run fine on this laptop again :O

Regarding the floorguard on Pillars of Heaven, I have no problem with it being removed. Honestly, I never mapped from a speedrun/highscore perspective, as I was never actually very good at that aspect of the game. So, for the sake of improving the flow of my map from a episodic/highscore perspective, please feel free to edit it as needed.

Actually, from reading further in the thread, it appears that M&R have already removed the questionable object. Regardless, I'm thrilled you all enjoyed my maps enough to include them in the next version of your game!

[raigan]

Thanks epigone! I really like that level -- you managed to combine several different "puzzle jumps" in the same space while maintaining a good style/look.

[Inspired]

Hey raigan, thanks for choosing my map for the pack, it's quite a privilege. Quick request, would you be able to change the author name from Nspired to Inspired on the map Pipes. Cheers!

[ska]

Riobe has a lot of linear race maps though which doesn't typically lend itself to this kind of compilation (especially his earlier maps).

This is total rubbish. Riobe has been one of the more prolific mapmakers and you could pick maps at random from his better map packs that would be good enough to have made it in.

It isn't rubbish. Literally 1/3 of all of his numa maps were tagged as 'race' maps. Probably the highest percentage of any author who's made over 300 if not the highest and I thought my 14% was high. Granted, I haven't sifted through any of his map packs, but I least did briefly go through some of his more prominent (read: featured) submitted action maps and even shortlisted one of his maps for inclusion. (Alibi) which was ultimately omitted.

SUPERLIMINAL MESSAGE TO MARE AND RAIGAN.

[mintnut]

Riobe has a lot of linear race maps though which doesn't typically lend itself to this kind of compilation (especially his earlier maps).

This is total rubbish. Riobe has been one of the more prolific mapmakers and you could pick maps at random from his better map packs that would be good enough to have made it in.

It isn't rubbish. Literally 1/3 of all of his numa maps were tagged as 'race' maps. Probably the highest percentage of any author who's made over 300 if not the highest and I thought my 14% was high. Granted, I haven't sifted through any of his map packs, but I least did briefly go through some of his more prominent (read: featured) submitted action maps and even shortlisted one of his maps for inclusion. (Alibi) which was ultimately omitted.

SUPERLIMINAL MESSAGE TO MARE AND RAIGAN.

So you only had "literally" over 200 of his maps to choose from? Man, you're right, that's not many at all is it? But yeah, I should give you more credit for discovering a featured map which uses a glitch and would probably not even work in 2.0.

I'm sure you've got equally valid reasons for the other authors I listed?

[ska]

So you only had "literally" over 200 of his maps to choose from? Man, you're right, that's not many at all is it? But yeah, I should give you more credit for discovering a featured map which uses a glitch and would probably not even work in 2.0.

I'm sure you've got equally valid reasons for the other authors I listed?

Look man, I'm not sure why you have to be such a dick about this but since you're insisting on it, I'm not going to pull any punches.

If it wasn't for my initiative there probably wouldn't even be a user-column, let alone 2. I'm sorry that some of your personal favourites didn't get in (of which quite a few we submitted to Mare anyway including toasters, Brttrx, Apse, frogs, Losty & shifty at the very least), but that's just the way it goes. A lot of prominent styles, such as those made famous by Losty, shifty and PALEMOON, whilst great styles/authors, weren't necessarily the kind of aesthetic and cohesive style that Mare and Raigan were evidently after. I distinctly recall you being in the #2.0 channel... You had a chance to contribute and you didn't so don't blame me, and certainly don't blame M+R. If anything, I suggest you 42-4.

But yeah, I should give you more credit for discovering a featured map which uses a glitch and would probably not even work in 2.0.

Hence why it was omitted, duh.

[mintnut]

So you only had "literally" over 200 of his maps to choose from? Man, you're right, that's not many at all is it? But yeah, I should give you more credit for discovering a featured map which uses a glitch and would probably not even work in 2.0.

I'm sure you've got equally valid reasons for the other authors I listed?

Look man, I'm not sure why you have to be such a dick about this. If it wasn't for my initiative there probably wouldn't even be a user-column, let alone 2. I'm sorry that your personal favourites didn't get in (of which quite a few we submitted to Mare anyway including toasters, Brttrx, Apse, frogs, Losty & shifty at the very least.), but that's just the way it goes. A lot of prominent styles, such as Losty, shifty and PALEMOON, whilst great authors, weren't necessarily the kind of aesthetic and cohesive style that Mare and Raigan were evidently after. You had a chance to contribute and you didn't so don't blame me, and certainly don't blame M+R. If anything, I suggest you 42-4.

Sigh. Sure it's great that you took the initiative and we've got a column, and i'm totally happy about that, but this isn't necessarily a case of "my personal favourites" since, as far as I know anyway there are lots of other people who like the mappers I listed and it rankles with me that some of them could be overlooked for this, especially when the basis for a lot of this was your personal taste. As far as I've seen anyone who sent suggestions to you had them subjected to your own idea of "aesthetic and cohesive style" before even reaching M&R.

At any rate, I certainly did contribute. You asked for maps; I sent you 10 maps, and as I recall 2 of them you'd already chosen yourself, 1 was included in a draft selection of maps and the rest were discarded completely. I certainly don't blame M&R for choosing from the maps they were offered, but given that one of the best mapmakers we've had was represented by 1 map which was doomed never to make it in anyway I can't say I trust the selection you sent.

But yeah, I should give you more credit for discovering a featured map which uses a glitch and would probably not even work in 2.0.

Hence why it was omitted, duh.

Sorry, I should have realised that I was the idiot here. It clearly made total sense to choose about the only map that you could guarantee wouldn't be considered.

[ska]

You truly are an idiot. I opened this up to people when I didn't have to. It's one thing to criticize my selections from a fresh perspective, but it's another when you yourself at one time was actually in the very channel dedicated to help decide maps to be included in the column(s) but you did nothing. You had an opportunity to help diversify the selection further but you didn't. You can't blame me for choosing what I thought would be good choices (and I stand by those that I made) (same goes for the other contributors, flag and gloomp etc included. while I didn't necessarily agree on all their choices, they did help diversify the overall breadth of the selection.)

Edit: Sorry that you have to see this Mare/Raigan, I 100% back your final decision. Please don't be dissuaded in any way by one disgruntled person.

Edit 2: The maps you sent me simply weren't what we were after (barring the ones we'd already shortlisted).. I played all the maps you sent and I talked them all over with some of the other guys too and they agreed with my rationale.

By the way, I'm not responding any more to this until further notice. We spent days on this, and I'm not going to waste time defending the end result to someone who barely contributed. Do you think I'm 100% satisfied with the end result either? No. But if I was, then that would be a problem. I do, however, back Mare and Raigan not only because it's their game but it's their creative decision and none of us would be arguing if it wasn't for their creative output in the first place.

[mintnut]

Let's just emphasise that:

I opened this up to people when I didn't have to.

How very compassionate of you.

[Donfuy]

You truly are an idiot. I opened this up to people when I didn't have to.

I don't quite get this statement. You mean you could've just sent M&R a pack full of maps chosen entirely by you?

I don't know if it was your intention, but it makes you sound a lot like a self-assigned metanet community spokesperson.

[aids]

I decided to leave the "committee" for picking the maps because I knew this would happen. ska, you're a bad people person and not that good at organizing things. Nobody gave you final say in the choosing of the maps from the community, you just happened to be the fastest to contact M&R. I did it too, knowing that I would get overlooked because M&R haven't been around lately to know who I am.

See, I would have done it in a very different way. I would have gathered up the maps I considered N-worthy (which is a plethora), and run them through M&R, explaining why. People could make requests (like to include PALEMOON or that one lord_day map with the floorguards), and I would look them over with M&R. Too many cooks shit in the broth, you see. Some people just don't know what the community wants, and by the way you're acting, that includes you.

(raigan, if you don't get scared off, you should PM me because I can help you with this.)

aids4prez

[trance]

aids4prez

<3

[Pheidippides]

Life, you're still looking to talk one-on-one with M&R, which is what I think people have the most issue with. The community shouldn't have one mouthpiece; that's why I sent my own suggestions to M&R separate from ska, flag, RD, l_d and the others. And a few of my suggestions made the list that Raigan posted, so it's not like they didn't listen to me. The problem I think most people have isn't that ska was a bad leader; it's that he tried to be a leader at all. M&R sent an email (which got posted in the #n topic) that basically described an intention to crowdsource the user column, taking suggestions from anyone who would send them in. If more people had done that instead of funneling their choices through other users, we wouldn't have ended up with a power struggle. The idea was that some users were more "connected" to M&R than others, but that just wasn't true. We all had an equal opportunity to speak to M&R; their email addresses are posted publicly on their website.

[otters~1]

[04:00:28] <ska> i don't even think i'm going toi respond to mintnut's latest response
[04:26:20] <ska> dust: mostly certain authors he felt were unfairly left out
[04:26:59] <ska> i think he's really bitter because none of his own maps were in the final thing


hahah

sorry you shouldn't have pinged me probably haha

[mercuri]

i thought you guys were more mature lol.

[ska]

The problem I think most people have isn't that ska was a bad leader; it's that he tried to be a leader at all.

I think this is the crux of it.

Welcome to skagate 2013, friends.

[aids]

Life, you're still looking to talk one-on-one with M&R, which is what I think people have the most issue with. The community shouldn't have one mouthpiece; that's why I sent my own suggestions to M&R separate from ska, flag, RD, l_d and the others. And a few of my suggestions made the list that Raigan posted, so it's not like they didn't listen to me. The problem I think most people have isn't that ska was a bad leader; it's that he tried to be a leader at all. M&R sent an email (which got posted in the #n topic) that basically described an intention to crowdsource the user column, taking suggestions from anyone who would send them in. If more people had done that instead of funneling their choices through other users, we wouldn't have ended up with a power struggle. The idea was that some users were more "connected" to M&R than others, but that just wasn't true. We all had an equal opportunity to speak to M&R; their email addresses are posted publicly on their website.

Maybe. I think the problem really came from how rushed it was. This needed to be given a month at least. But as long as we will be able to play mappacks in episode form, I don't much care about the usermaps column.

(Not to mention the fact that there still isn't an editor for us to fix up the maps for the new game.)

[aids]

The problem I think most people have isn't that ska was a bad leader; it's that he tried to be a leader at all.

I think this is the crux of it.

Welcome to skagate 2013, friends.

You were like Gandalf trying to ferret all the dwarves around in The Hobbit. M&R=Bilbo?

[ska]

Ne'er a truer word spoken.

[mintnut]

You truly are an idiot. I opened this up to people when I didn't have to. It's one thing to criticize my selections from a fresh perspective, but it's another when you yourself at one time was actually in the very channel dedicated to help decide maps to be included in the column(s) but you did nothing. You had an opportunity to help diversify the selection further but you didn't. You can't blame me for choosing what I thought would be good choices (and I stand by those that I made) (same goes for the other contributors, flag and gloomp etc included. while I didn't necessarily agree on all their choices, they did help diversify the overall breadth of the selection.)

Edit: Sorry that you have to see this Mare/Raigan, I 100% back your final decision. Please don't be dissuaded in any way by one disgruntled person.

Edit 2: The maps you sent me simply weren't what we were after (barring the ones we'd already shortlisted).. I played all the maps you sent and I talked them all over with some of the other guys too and they agreed with my rationale.

By the way, I'm not responding any more to this until further notice. We spent days on this, and I'm not going to waste time defending the end result to someone who barely contributed. Do you think I'm 100% satisfied with the end result either? No. But if I was, then that would be a problem. I do, however, back Mare and Raigan not only because it's their game but it's their creative decision and none of us would be arguing if it wasn't for their creative output in the first place.

Didn't realise you'd written more in here until just now...

"what we were after"

who is this we? m&r? or you? because, i thought the whole idea was about levels to go in their game, and thus would be what they were after. why do you include yourself in this we?

"someone who barely contributed"

the idea that you can't be held accountable to anything because I wasn't involved is weird, however I contributed as much as I was asked to. I was told that you were compiling a list of maps to send to m&r and that I should pm up to 5 of my own maps and 10 maps by other authors to you. I sent you the latter 10 maps. I was then in #2.0 during the following few days, and suggested more maps to you which you said you would consider. In what way was that not contributing, and how exactly could I have contributed more?

"I do, however, back Mare and Raigan"

I don't recall questioning their decisions once?

[999_Springs]

Going back to something mentioned earlier.

Something we're still trying to figure out is how to make highscores mean something when, as you mention, there are thousands of maps to score on.

We're hoping that the community figures out a way to handle this, e.g you could vote on which maps should be considered "ranked", and then you could use the set of officially ranked levels to determine global standing (since there would be a small finite number of them, like the 500 v1.4 levels).

We're definitely open to suggestions.

This is a great idea and one that I'm fully supportive of. I'm not sure exactly what M&R are intending here, whether they mean an unofficial community-chosen set of levels that won't be explicity stated in the final release, or have them officially marked out in v2's user columns (like the 1.4 userlevels, but of course in column rather than list format). Either way, we'll need a lot more than two columns' worth for leaderboard highscoring to work properly. Maybe we won't need as many as 500, but if these user columns are going to be the basis of v2 highscoring, we'll need more maps. There's still time, no need to rush around trying to finalise map selection for user columns and/or highscoring.

It's a long shot, but... 10 user columns, perhaps? :D

SUPERLIMINAL MESSAGE TO MARE AND RAIGAN.

Am I being really dumb here because I don't see the message. M&R already fixed triple slope jumps in the latest beta so it can't be that, and nothing else comes immediately to mind.

[unoriginal name]

my god ska why are you such an immense douche i mean seriously