&

[TS]

Aheh heh heh.
Nice one.
<3

[Fraxtil]

Now my userlevels take FOREVER to load. >_>

But seriously, great job compiling this thing. Looks massive.

[sheganican]

boy im depressed to see all the effort you guys are putting in and all the great things you guys have accomplished and know that i would be capable of doing stuff that great if i wasnt so lazy and not hard-working ;_;

[Kablizzy]

Feh. Just enjoy, all! Enjoy! That's what it's there for. It's meant to be enjoyed.

[Sithmaster]

wow, I thought the count down was for New Years and the Forum crashing, but no! it was the New Year, and an amazing new level pack!

[unoriginal name]

I was sorta right, but you guys added so much more. Great work.

[Indigo]

Sounds legendary!

*Downloads*

... wait, what do I even do with this!?

[Condog]

Awesome.

[Brainwasher]

a round of applause, but one of the files is "broken"

in the original packs folder, the origins file is busted, replacing all stops (placed by pressing enter) with showcode squares. Not really a big deal, but I thought I'd let you know.

Now then, *playplayplayplay inhale playplayplayplay exhale*

[wedgie]

Sounds legendary!

*Downloads*

... wait, what do I even do with this!?

You play through it, and enjoy it's awesomely awesome levels.

[Skyling]

This levelpack is really a great idea! I think that there were many fantastic levels, but there were also plenty of bland or simply unfun levels. I think it would be definitely interesting to see some Legacy levels that delve into a more modern and stylish mapping method! I guess you can't really expect to have 1,000 perfect levels in a 1,000 level map pack. :p

[Kablizzy]

Such is the essence of the episodic pack. You've got to have some fillers in somewhere.

Edit: And hey, you never know. We might delve into those strange, wacky waters someday. In fact, we might be doing it sooner than you think.

[SlappyMcGee]

I AM THE FIRST ONE TO DISCOVER THE HIDDEN MAPS.

Let it be known.

[innuendo]

I'll be bold enough to say I don't like the modern mapping styles. Too much emphasis on stupid crap like flashy tiles, too little focus on gameplay and fluidity. E tiles and 1 slopes are just simpler to navigate, and as such produce more gameplay options. The emphasis on flashy tiles and things of that nature really detract from the gameplay, no matter how well executed they are.

@ Slappy: OMG HIDDEN!

[Kablizzy]

Hidden maps? No such thing, sir.

[lord_day]

I'll be bold enough to say I don't like the modern mapping styles. Too much emphasis on stupid crap like flashy tiles, too little focus on gameplay and fluidity. E tiles and 1 slopes are just simpler to navigate, and as such produce more gameplay options. The emphasis on flashy tiles and things of that nature really detract from the gameplay, no matter how well executed they are.

I disagree very much.

Not all maps need flow or decent navigational options to make them fun. There are plenty other ways to make a map fun, and I don't think enough of them are employed in maps these days. However, some maps do rely on how easily the ninja moves through the level to achieve their quota of fun and a good map maker can make a level fluid and fun, while still maintaining 'flashy' tiles. It takes real skill to get a good balance of aesthetics and gameplay. Maps that mainly rely on E tiles and 1 tiles are often boring and bland. To say that good looking tiles detract from gameplay, no matter how well executed they are is pretty ridiculous; tiles often add to the atmosphere of a map, and increase the fun you have while playing them.

At the same time, just because you can zip around a map fluidly, doesn't automatically make it fun. It soon becomes repetitive, as we have all played thousands of maps like that before. Anyone can make a map that has been made before, but it is much harder to make a map that has never been made before. And it is extremely enjoyable to play a map you have never played before, which is why we covet them so highly.

[乳头的早餐谷物]

[Add a comment here!]

[Pheidippides]

I guess I'm one of the vigilant. ;)

[epigone]

I'll be bold enough to say I don't like the modern mapping styles. Too much emphasis on stupid crap like flashy tiles, too little focus on gameplay and fluidity. E tiles and 1 slopes are just simpler to navigate, and as such produce more gameplay options. The emphasis on flashy tiles and things of that nature really detract from the gameplay, no matter how well executed they are.

I disagree very much.

Not all maps need flow or decent navigational options to make them fun. There are plenty other ways to make a map fun, and I don't think enough of them are employed in maps these days. However, some maps do rely on how easily the ninja moves through the level to achieve their quota of fun and a good map maker can make a level fluid and fun, while still maintaining 'flashy' tiles. It takes real skill to get a good balance of aesthetics and gameplay. Maps that mainly rely on E tiles and 1 tiles are often boring and bland. To say that good looking tiles detract from gameplay, no matter how well executed they are is pretty ridiculous; tiles often add to the atmosphere of a map, and increase the fun you have while playing them.

At the same time, just because you can zip around a map fluidly, doesn't automatically make it fun. It soon becomes repetitive, as we have all played thousands of maps like that before. Anyone can make a map that has been made before, but it is much harder to make a map that has never been made before. And it is extremely enjoyable to play a map you have never played before, which is why we covet them so highly.

Don't listen to lord_day, he is a terrible mapmaker. Ugh. /sarc

[Kablizzy]

I'm not nearly as fervent as maximo on his quest for the old-school map, but the problem with the newer mapping style is that it is indeed all the same. There's no innovation on NUMA these days, and that's a large part of why we try so hard to innovate on every map. Now, with nearly 1500 maps released, obviously there's going to be a large number of fillers. Although we made every attempt to pull the fillers and replace those with maps that were unique, innovative, and thought-provoking; we simply can't please everyone with every map. Even within Legacy, there were maps that every last one of us disagreed upon; take Brambles and Shambles, for instance. By metanet standards, it's an awful map, but now that I look back upon it - It's perhaps the most recognizable map in the pack in terms of gameplay, structure, flow, and theme.

I don't like modern mapping styles for the same reason lord_day doesn't like old ones - They can get stale rather easily. Look through NUMA some day and just browse the thumbnails. Take a look at how exacting the similarities are. Go back through the Metanet maps now that you've played through all of Legacy - It's horrendous how different maps are now from where we were then. I'd say Brad and I are perhaps the most boring Legacy mappers, and he and I make the most Metanet-esque maps, stylistically.

With that said, though, if you look at the Metanet maps, a lot of them are fillers, by today's standards - Most are aesthetically horrible, none adhere to any semblance of what we'd call Modern Map theory, and honestly, this last run-through, I realized that we were enthralled by the Metanet maps through amazement with the game moreso than we were ever fans of the maps themselves. I've said it often - If the Metanet maps went up on NUMA under a new author, the maps wouldn't break 3 in most cases.

But what we strived for with the Legacy packs was primarily theme - There are only a handful of maps that I can think of that don't fit the Legacy theme and the Legacy credo; Butterdoodle from the Origins pack jumps to mind. The other thing we made big was perfecting static things about the maps - Not so much map *Style* as map *Execution* - Style is a matter of preference, but Execution is certainly something that can be perfected. And that's really what we went for - Each map with a noticeable theme, and execute each map better than any other mapper can execute. And that's perhaps the biggest advantage of having fourteen people working towards the same goal - particularly with everyone as skilled as they are.

But the thing that baffles me about it is that I've seen so many people in the community who could do precisely the same thing as we've done, and haven't. Each person operates individually so well, but no one has done anything near what the Legacy Team has done, and I've always been so sad to see that. Honestly, if you look at Legacy, all we've had going for us are ideas. We come up with ideas - Dave's an idea-man, I'm an idea-man, LV is an idea-man, KA is an idea-man, Sweep was an idea-man, atob is an idea-man, Sendy is an idea-woman... And so on. We all have our niches to fill, and we all fill those nicely, but more than anything, we brainstorm. And that's really all it's ever taken for us. Remember the It's Your Legacy? Well, I guess most of you don't - Our new registration this year alone has been nuts.

But seriously. We had 20 people on Vent the other day, and they all conglomerated around the same places we were in. I'd like to see four people playing Worms and four people doing Wikitrivia, while four people Vent map. We've started to become disjointed again, and I think we should come together a bit once more. Everything here has turned into a very top-down environment, whereas I'd really enjoy seeing larger personalities do more things independently. And granted, perhaps it's our fault for shoving everyone with influence into mod spots and Legacy positions - way back when, the only Legacy member that wasn't a mod was Lucidium, and that was followed directly by krusch. Now it's varied quite a bit, but it's still very top-down. So many people just aren't idea-driven, and maybe we've taken all of the ideas, and there just aren't any left. Right? :roll:

But anyway, the other thing that I've struggled with are things like Webcomic of the Year. When Dave was running it, he didn't get nominated for it because it was too dominant. He purposefully was taken out of the running because his webcomic was too good. That sucks, man. I know he doesn't care about winning or not winning a Dronie, but still. It's nice to recognize the most influential guy in the community from time to time. The Legacy was almost taken out of the running insofar as Map-pack of the year, just so that people would "have a chance" to win a Dronie. But do we realize how much effort Dave put in to The Real N? I mean, the projects around here are great, but did anyone put that kind of effort into their comic? A few, I'd say, but something magical happened with The Real N. So magical that it was too magical.

Odd reasoning there. So, I dunno. Why doesn't anyone else ever post these rants? I'd like to see someone else post one of these sometime, but it doesn't happen for some odd reason. I know we all see it, but even something so simple as this can sometimes skyrocket the community into a frenzy of activity. Hell, I don't even know how this erupted into a rant, or what kind of sense I may or may not be making at the moment, but I know it's inspired by something. Anyway, mumble mumble keep contributing! =D

[MattKestrel]

The ninja histogram's interesting, in that the ninja mostly starts either on the floor or in the middle column :P

[blue_tetris]

I'm not nearly as fervent as maximo on his quest for the old-school map, but the problem with the newer mapping style is that it is indeed all the same. There's no innovation on NUMA these days, and that's a large part of why we try so hard to innovate on every map. Now, with nearly 1500 maps released, obviously there's going to be a large number of fillers. Although we made every attempt to pull the fillers and replace those with maps that were unique, innovative, and thought-provoking; we simply can't please everyone with every map. Even within Legacy, there were maps that every last one of us disagreed upon; take Brambles and Shambles, for instance. By metanet standards, it's an awful map, but now that I look back upon it - It's perhaps the most recognizable map in the pack in terms of gameplay, structure, flow, and theme.

I don't like modern mapping styles for the same reason lord_day doesn't like old ones - They can get stale rather easily. Look through NUMA some day and just browse the thumbnails. Take a look at how exacting the similarities are. Go back through the Metanet maps now that you've played through all of Legacy - It's horrendous how different maps are now from where we were then. I'd say Brad and I are perhaps the most boring Legacy mappers, and he and I make the most Metanet-esque maps, stylistically.

With that said, though, if you look at the Metanet maps, a lot of them are fillers, by today's standards - Most are aesthetically horrible, none adhere to any semblance of what we'd call Modern Map theory, and honestly, this last run-through, I realized that we were enthralled by the Metanet maps through amazement with the game moreso than we were ever fans of the maps themselves. I've said it often - If the Metanet maps went up on NUMA under a new author, the maps wouldn't break 3 in most cases.

But what we strived for with the Legacy packs was primarily theme - There are only a handful of maps that I can think of that don't fit the Legacy theme and the Legacy credo; Butterdoodle from the Origins pack jumps to mind. The other thing we made big was perfecting static things about the maps - Not so much map *Style* as map *Execution* - Style is a matter of preference, but Execution is certainly something that can be perfected. And that's really what we went for - Each map with a noticeable theme, and execute each map better than any other mapper can execute. And that's perhaps the biggest advantage of having fourteen people working towards the same goal - particularly with everyone as skilled as they are.

But the thing that baffles me about it is that I've seen so many people in the community who could do precisely the same thing as we've done, and haven't. Each person operates individually so well, but no one has done anything near what the Legacy Team has done, and I've always been so sad to see that. Honestly, if you look at Legacy, all we've had going for us are ideas. We come up with ideas - Dave's an idea-man, I'm an idea-man, LV is an idea-man, KA is an idea-man, Sweep was an idea-man, atob is an idea-man, Sendy is an idea-woman... And so on. We all have our niches to fill, and we all fill those nicely, but more than anything, we brainstorm. And that's really all it's ever taken for us. Remember the It's Your Legacy? Well, I guess most of you don't - Our new registration this year alone has been nuts.

But seriously. We had 20 people on Vent the other day, and they all conglomerated around the same places we were in. I'd like to see four people playing Worms and four people doing Wikitrivia, while four people Vent map. We've started to become disjointed again, and I think we should come together a bit once more. Everything here has turned into a very top-down environment, whereas I'd really enjoy seeing larger personalities do more things independently. And granted, perhaps it's our fault for shoving everyone with influence into mod spots and Legacy positions - way back when, the only Legacy member that wasn't a mod was Lucidium, and that was followed directly by krusch. Now it's varied quite a bit, but it's still very top-down. So many people just aren't idea-driven, and maybe we've taken all of the ideas, and there just aren't any left. Right? :roll:

But anyway, the other thing that I've struggled with are things like Webcomic of the Year. When Dave was running it, he didn't get nominated for it because it was too dominant. He purposefully was taken out of the running because his webcomic was too good. That sucks, man. I know he doesn't care about winning or not winning a Dronie, but still. It's nice to recognize the most influential guy in the community from time to time. The Legacy was almost taken out of the running insofar as Map-pack of the year, just so that people would "have a chance" to win a Dronie. But do we realize how much effort Dave put in to The Real N? I mean, the projects around here are great, but did anyone put that kind of effort into their comic? A few, I'd say, but something magical happened with The Real N. So magical that it was too magical.

Odd reasoning there. So, I dunno. Why doesn't anyone else ever post these rants? I'd like to see someone else post one of these sometime, but it doesn't happen for some odd reason. I know we all see it, but even something so simple as this can sometimes skyrocket the community into a frenzy of activity. Hell, I don't even know how this erupted into a rant, or what kind of sense I may or may not be making at the moment, but I know it's inspired by something. Anyway, mumble mumble keep contributing! =D

QFE.

I wish more people would read and understand this.

I was excluded from stuff before I was big enough because "oh, Dave's not big enough in the community yet" and then equally excluded afterward for being "too obvious a pick". But, whatever. I do what I do because I see an impact and an innovation.



To me, Legacy was about map innovation. Legacy is, ultimately, a group of mappers who continued to innovate and make better material over time. If Legacy ever slowed down on projects, it's because there was no need to inundate the community with more content if that content wasn't innovative. I felt like that stuff that was included in Legacy was the stuff that would've also topped the charts of novelty at NUMA. And that's why it's important to notice and promote excellence in innovation where it happens. If NUMA maps could be sifted and refined (perhaps, by forming groups of authors and assembling map packs...), you could isolate and build upon their innovations and successes.

There are new projects around here every day that amaze me and new names crop up from time to time. It's all really great and I feel like I'm starting to notice new people again. Some of the higher ups are jaded and ancient, sure, and sometimes they'll get depressed about things like any other jaded ancient dudes would. But! Stuff really does keep happening around here. New names and projects keep cropping up and new things that the staff is entirely disconnected with keep happening. I constantly hear "Oh, well if Dave thinks it's good..." or whatever; which causes people to vacuously accept certain projects and not others based on their creator or supporters. I'm intrigued when I find out about some big project that was going on right under my nose that I never heard of. I do wonder how people were able to hide it so well from me, given that there's a nice big forum, IRC channel, and Ventrilo server to use.

To clarify: what's chiefly important is that you do your projects openly and as a community. No one benefits when you close off your stuff or try to limit its scope. The IRC is there for you. The Ventrilo server is there for you. These forums are here for you. Use these tools to communicate your projects, ideas, innovations, etc. This isn't some ideadump for The Real N crew, Legacy mappers, the "Ventrilo elite", or what have you. It's a place where ideas become stronger through sharing. And, moreover, it's where new people and new ideas are born and can help replace (or evolve) older ideas. Some map makers are going to need to be here to make packs when people stop making Legacy maps. Some comic-maker is going to need to be here to make something like The Real N Comics when Dave stops making them (two and a half years ago). Someone is going to need to follow up on the Magic: The Gathering tourneys or try to arrange gaming events or try to run a Ventrilo or do their own podcasts or do a myriad things related to the community, both in regards to and beyond the confines of the ninja game.

[Eiturlyf]

A Kablizzy tower post? This is gonna be a good year.

[Kablizzy]

Dave always says things better. ;_;

[Pheidippides]

I agree with everything Blizz and Dave said. Solis_Team may need to ride again. Or something.