Vegetarians!

[Geti]

Oh yeah, having the ability to say "fuck it" and bin moral restrictions on some things is pretty much integral to the idea of moral compromises, and thus a part of being human. No-one's perfect, and there are quite often times when it's just too damn hard to do the right thing, or more fun to be a little bad, and I understand that that's most often where people's stance on vegetarianism comes in, though there's elements of denial that usually turns into thinly veiled hostility in many people when they get the idea that you're "challenging" their choices when it comes to food, though a lot of veg*ns act aggressively to criticism as well. I do hope that this discussion doesn't get all defensive like it has in previous years :/

That said, I'd don't believe there's much quality of life in places like this: much less a relative improvement.. but either way it's conjecture because we general anthropomorphise the animal in question before evaluating its situation. I have no real idea if cows get kicks out of eating grass all day and walking around shiftily, but it sounds better than standing in a miniaturised paddock full of mud and shit, getting fed corn every now and again (which is bad for their digestive systems but pretty cheap) and then getting carted off to get killed to me. Again, it's pretty species-ist to think like this but surely it's "better" for something to have a long average life than a short below-average life, no? I don't know what values you're basing this on besides boredom though.

Re: extinction - Sure, domestic cattle would die out in a heartbeat, but their Bovine relatives the bison and buffalo that haven't been bitchslapped genetically by artificial selection for "you get fatter faster" would be doing as fine as they are today. I wouldn't be fussed with cattle hitting extinction, it'd just be nature doing it's thing anyway.

It'd be nice if I knew the name of the movie I saw a bit of recently with my family. It was on the food industry and why it's fucked up at the moment, and wasn't opposed to meat production or anything, just the current situation, which was nice just because it's less likely to be taken as biased. I'll find it later, I guess.

[Heartattack]

The meat packing plants that effectively enforce regulations about humane treatment of their animals often enough deliver animals which only suffer from boredom. If they were allowed to roam free, they'd be standing around bored in a grassy field, and eventually die much more slowly of some disease, or worse yet, killed by some predator.

Dude, I live in Texas, and I can say from experience, cows don't get bored. There isn't enough mental activity up there for that kind of thing. I have literally watched a cow for 30 minutes and only seen it blink. As for getting killed by predators, in Texas anyway, the only thing that could credibly kill a cow is a pack of coyotes, and they would only be able to kill the old and sickly or a newborn, which is a necessary part of nature and not a thing that really makes the lives of the other cows any worse.

[scythe]

Is that because you are a psychopath who feels no empathy for other living creatures? I bet you also condone dogfighting and beating the shit out of foxes.

see #5

[SlappyMcGee]

Is that because you are a psychopath who feels no empathy for other living creatures? I bet you also condone dogfighting and beating the shit out of foxes.

see #5

I don't even begin to see the relevance of that. The only semblance there is of an argument there is that Lobsters have a shitty nervous system and likely don't feel pain, which is true, and it's not relevant to most animals. The rest is Cracked.com's "HURR DURR LIST LOLLLLL" rhetoric.

I can't help but think back to the thread about Saddam Hussein just before he was executed. A number of people were saying that he should be castrated, beaten, or humiliated in some way, whereas I didn't agree because it was totally unnecessary. When a doctor excises a tumor, he doesn't take the time to taunt or torture it -- the point is to get it out so that the patient can recover from the damage it has done; the tumor's death and any "suffering" it might go through is incidental. The point in killing Saddam Hussein was to help Iraq, not to cause him pain or teach him a lesson.

Saddam Hussein was a great leader. The point was not to help Iraq. The point was to prevent him from being dangerous to Americans. The point, really, was to help Americans. Like all of the Bush-led foreign policy that later fell under the "We're there because they want us there" bullshit banner.

[scythe]

Is that because you are a psychopath who feels no empathy for other living creatures? I bet you also condone dogfighting and beating the shit out of foxes.

see #5

I don't even begin to see the relevance of that. The only semblance there is of an argument there is that Lobsters have a shitty nervous system and likely don't feel pain, which is true, and it's not relevant to most animals. The rest is Cracked.com's "HURR DURR LIST LOLLLLL" rhetoric.

Cracked is criticizing the assertion that something gets empathy for being alive. Yeah, I feel empathy for great apes, the only family of organisms for which the term has any meaning. I also respect dolphins as probably-smarter-than-me.

But cows?

[Tanner]

Saddam Hussein was a great leader.

I'm afraid you've fallen prey to some lefty propaganda, Slaps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... ein's_Iraq

[Donfuy]

I started that huge Thread back when P&D was called something else and I was a grumpy midteen. That OP date says it's been more than 3 years, actually; time's crazy.

--offtopic-- Holy shit we've been on ninjarobotyeti for over 3 years? I wouldn't have even guessed 2 o_O -/offtopic--

The OP date says it's been 2 years and 1 month. What are you guys talking about?

[SlappyMcGee]

Saddam Hussein was a great leader.

I'm afraid you've fallen prey to some lefty propaganda, Slaps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_righ ... ein's_Iraq

Those people had it coming! How about his great work for women's rights?

The United States has killed and tortured a damn lot of people too, and all we did was impeach Nixon.

[Geti]

The OP date says it's been 2 years and 1 month. What are you guys talking about?

Epic fail, me. Looks like I can't do dates at night time, at all <_<

[SlappyMcGee]

Cracked is criticizing the assertion that something gets empathy for being alive. Yeah, I feel empathy for great apes, the only family of organisms for which the term has any meaning. I also respect dolphins as probably-smarter-than-me.

But cows?

The fact that you can't feel empathy for a creature that you think is stupider than you are is ridiculous.

[Vyacheslav]

Would you feel sorry for a cow if you saw it being cut at its throat? I would.

[smartalco]

Would you feel sorry for a cow if you saw it being cut at its throat? I would.

That would wear off once I saw the steaks being removed.

[sidke]

Would you feel sorry for a cow if you saw it being cut at its throat? I would.

That would wear off once I saw the steaks being removed.

and on a grill and down my throat MMMMMMMMmmmmmmm
maybe we can do some sort of branding/cooking where we grill the cow as it's alive, then slice off that bit of cooked meat add salt and spices and enjoy
i mean they already cut holes in the cows to access the stomachs, just cut holes in the cows to access the delicious yum instead

[otters~1]

sidke shouldn't be allowed to post in this thread because substituting a few words he could easily be talking about human corpses. :/

Sickening just a little.

[GamingWolf]

You guys are making this look too hard.

Um, hello? Plants are living things too!

[sidke]

You guys are making this look too hard.

Um, hello? Plants are living things too!

yeah but plants don't have brains and OBVIOUSLY can't feel pain like animals sanctioned by the PETA do, DUHHHhh. god i can't believe you're so gullible to the man's propaganda. it's OBVIOUSLY a conspiracy i can't believe you're such a sheeperson
i say as i crunch on my carrots and marry a goat if i were a vegan

[Vyacheslav]

Plants cannot think for themselves

[scythe]

Cracked is criticizing the assertion that something gets empathy for being alive. Yeah, I feel empathy for great apes, the only family of organisms for which the term has any meaning. I also respect dolphins as probably-smarter-than-me.

But cows?

The fact that you can't feel empathy for a creature that you think is stupider than you are not self-aware is ridiculous.

Empathy is an involuntary reaction. Of course I feel empathy -- I feel empathy for cartoon characters because they have big eyes. I just rationally realize that I shouldn't give a shit about cows.

Yeah, I realize that this line of thinking points to such weird questions as this.

[GamingWolf]

Plants cannot think for themselves

Plants can generate food for themselves... animals are so jealous that they STARTED EATING THEM ALIVE. Other animals sided with the plants(Yes, this motivation was made up) and ATE THE ANIMALS INSTEAD. Humans were like oh hell naw THIS ANIMAL IS CUTE LET'S KEEP IT... and erm BUT WAIT THESE ARE TASTY... I'M BREAKING MY OWN RULES WHAT DO I DO? I know... wait... I know... LET'S DIS OTHER PEOPLE AND BE HYPOCRITES. YAY!

*unleashes himself into debate forum*

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

maybe we can do some sort of branding/cooking where we grill the cow as it's alive, then slice off that bit of cooked meat add salt and spices and enjoy
i mean they already cut holes in the cows to access the stomachs, just cut holes in the cows to access the delicious yum instead

Japan does this with dolphins. I would shoot the people who do this in the face if I could.

Plants cannot think for themselves

o_O O_o o_O ...that we know of! O_o o_O O_o

[GamingWolf]

Japan does this with dolphins. I would shoot the people who do this in the face if I could.

If you knew enough about dolphins... well let's just say dolphins are VERY perverted.

P.S. Geti... go kosher.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Japan does this with dolphins. I would shoot the people who do this in the face if I could.

If you knew enough about dolphins... well let's just say dolphins are VERY perverted.

Nothing that any living thing can do, think, or intend warrants torture as a means of execution. A bolt through the brain is not torture, but going to length to keep the animal alive while it's being cooked is unambiguously torture.

[Tanner]

Even the cow at The Restaurant at the End of the Universe had the decency to shoot itself before it was served.

[scythe]

Nothing that any living thing can do, think, or intend warrants torture as a means of execution. A bolt through the brain is not torture, but going to length to keep the animal alive while it's being cooked is unambiguously torture.

Plus anyone who would torture anything is clearly fucked up.

[GamingWolf]

Japan does this with dolphins. I would shoot the people who do this in the face if I could.

If you knew enough about dolphins... well let's just say dolphins are VERY perverted.

Nothing that any living thing can do, think, or intend warrants torture as a means of execution. A bolt through the brain is not torture, but going to length to keep the animal alive while it's being cooked is unambiguously torture.

Whoop. You caught me. No amount of cruelty that a living thing partakes in justifies killing them. We can't debate. We can only agree.