Metanet Forums

if you had a choice to be from a different ethnicity, heritage, or race, what would it be? I always thought black people to be cool as a kid, so I guess I would want to be black as an alternative

I've always hoped that one day, nobody in the world will be able to hear a question like that and understand what the hell it means.

I'm very tempted to make some sort of incredibly disgusting racist comment here, but in all seriousness, I agree with SkyPanda.

SkyPanda and gloomp,

That will be the day I hit that point in my misanthropy that I simply end myself so I don't have to tolerate it anymore.

"Solutions" to racism that are imposed ignorance such as color-blindness are even worse than having to put up with racism to begin with. Not only does it employ the "if I stick my head in the sand far enough, the problem will go away" method of dealing with your problems, but it would also completely trash all cultural background you'd have on a race. Black culture, Native American culture, Latino culture, Indian culture, and all flavors of Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, and Eastern culture, have developed and stayed active because they are different from the cultures of all other races.
Besides which, people are always going to find something to judge people by, and the only way to stop 'em doing it is to give them all much bigger problems. Wanting us all to be one indistinguishable people where one member can't tell a thing from another by looking at him sounds to me like some kind of fascist dystopian hell, where all people, regardless of race, are told by stun-stick wielding soldiers to "pick up that can."
I live in a very diverse area of California, and the places I go are virtually free of racial discrimination. It's still obvious that we come from different ethnic backgrounds and cultures, and we even crack jokes about it sometimes because we know they mean nothing. The sort of world I want to see is one where differences between races is still just as recognized, but is tolerated just as much one would a member of his own race, just like the place I'm living now.

But color-blindness is a terrible way to go about it.
I know you mean well, but the more liberal of y'all should really think through the consequences of what you say before you back it. There are better ways of accomplishing exactly the same end goals.


To answer the OP's question, I'm content remaining the Master Race.

You should be happy with what you are.
I'm with SkyPanda and gloomp on this one.

I'm happy with what I am. Mixed race Sierra Leone and Corsican.

i would echo Tsukatu's sentiments. i emphasize that the racial cultures are distinct and cannot be smoothed over. racial difference is something we'll have to deal with; irrationality is something we'll have to destroy. but ignoring race isn't the way to deminish illogicality. but this isn't a debate thread. i also am content with being white.

yungerkid wrote:i would echo Tsukatu's sentiments. i emphasize that the racial cultures are distinct and cannot be smoothed over. racial difference is something we'll have to deal with; irrationality is something we'll have to destroy. but ignoring race isn't the way to deminish illogicality.

My agreement index exceeds or is equal to 0.60, which warrants my classification of your point as "Acceptable," with 0.0017 Certainty Entropy.
I assert that a more efficient increase in Mutual Certitude will result from a maximized flux of verbal output.
Primary proposal: Initiate a raw consciousness dump.
Tangential assertion: You are not a fucking robot. Stop pretending that you think anything at all like one (or what you for some reason think one would think like, which is oddly reminiscent of science fiction from the 50's). We've been over this before, dude.

Tsukatu wrote: I know you mean well, but the more liberal of y'all should really think through the consequences of what you say before you back it. There are better ways of accomplishing exactly the same end goals.

So what exactly are the consequences of what they said? Last I checked this was the internet, i.e. You can say whatever the fuck you want. Seriously you are like the least tolerant person on this website. Not to insult you, but you are a person of strong opinions, to say the least. You argue with people who agree with you for god's sake.

Anyway. I'm happy as half Sri Lankan and one quarter each Jewish and German. Represent!
It would be really cool to try being of a different ethnicity, but I wouldn't want to be a different person entirely.

Topo wrote:

Tsukatu wrote: I know you mean well, but the more liberal of y'all should really think through the consequences of what you say before you back it. There are better ways of accomplishing exactly the same end goals.

So what exactly are the consequences of what they said?

Tsukatu wrote:"Solutions" to racism that are imposed ignorance such as color-blindness are even worse than having to put up with racism to begin with. Not only does it employ the "if I stick my head in the sand far enough, the problem will go away" method of dealing with your problems, but it would also completely trash all cultural background you'd have on a race. Black culture, Native American culture, Latino culture, Indian culture, and all flavors of Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, and Eastern culture, have developed and stayed active because they are different from the cultures of all other races.
Besides which, people are always going to find something to judge people by, and the only way to stop 'em doing it is to give them all much bigger problems. Wanting us all to be one indistinguishable people where one member can't tell a thing from another by looking at him sounds to me like some kind of fascist dystopian hell, where all people, regardless of race, are told by stun-stick wielding soldiers to "pick up that can."

yungerkid wrote:i emphasize that the racial cultures are distinct and cannot be smoothed over.

Racial cultures? Are you serious? Dude, the concept of racial cultures is destroyed the instant you venture anywhere with a population density greater than Uncle Jack's farm. :)

Tsukatu wrote:"Solutions" to racism that are imposed ignorance such as color-blindness are even worse than having to put up with racism to begin with. Not only does it employ the "if I stick my head in the sand far enough, the problem will go away" method of dealing with your problems,

Nobody has said anything about ignoring racism. It's going to be a problem right up until a few people with their head stuck in the sand are wondering, "Hey, are you a black-chinese American, or an Asian-Euro-latino-white African? Whatever, pass me the noodles."

Tsukatu wrote:Besides which, people are always going to find something to judge people by, and the only way to stop 'em doing it is to give them all much bigger problems. Wanting us all to be one indistinguishable people where one member can't tell a thing from another by looking at him sounds to me like some kind of fascist dystopian hell, where all people, regardless of race, are told by stun-stick wielding soldiers to "pick up that can."

And when the aliens come, they're not gonna know who to head-suck first. When it obviously should be the black scientist.

If you think we should be able to tell things about people just by looking at them, then i'm afraid you're a racist. Colour-coding is not the way of the future. I hope.

SkyPanda wrote:

yungerkid wrote:i emphasize that the racial cultures are distinct and cannot be smoothed over.

Racial cultures? Are you serious? Dude, the concept of racial cultures is destroyed the instant you venture anywhere with a population density greater than Uncle Jack's farm. :)

I actually agree with yungerkid here. If you've been to any large city and explored, you'd have easily stumbled into parts of the city dominated by some culture. There are neighborhoods of people of the same race all the hell over major US cities, very many of which become so dominated by the given culture that commercial venues don't even bother catering to English speakers anymore. Even without neighborhoods aligned by a race, there are plenty of social groups that congregate based on race, and that's not going to go away, either.
I like that this can happen. I like that, say, a Finnish child can be born in America and be blasted with American pop culture but still have his Finns of San Francisco club to come to so he can learn about where he came from and what his ancestors may have been like. This boosts cultural awareness, gives people who would never come into contact with that culture a better appreciation for it (how would I know that I love Chinese food? And Japanese food? And Indian, and Mediterranean food?), and generally, as my whole point here is, accomplishes the end goal of tolerance of all races much better than imposing a unifying cultural standard on everyone. That's extremely fascist, and you'd need something like a despotism to pull it off (and you'd probably need something like a personality cult to boot).
Again, I understand that you want racial intolerance to end, but racial discrimination is not the same as "being able to tell people apart based on race." What you are proposing is racial blindness, which takes all of the appreciation and mutual cooperation between cultures that we've built up to this point and throws it right out the window.

SkyPanda wrote:

Tsukatu wrote:"Solutions" to racism that are imposed ignorance such as color-blindness are even worse than having to put up with racism to begin with. Not only does it employ the "if I stick my head in the sand far enough, the problem will go away" method of dealing with your problems,

Nobody has said anything about ignoring racism.

I'm not saying anything about ignoring racism, but calling racial blindness ignorant. I do not approve of ignoring racism; I think it should be addressed and eliminated.

SkyPanda wrote:It's going to be a problem right up until a few people with their head stuck in the sand are wondering, "Hey, are you a black-chinese American, or an Asian-Euro-latino-white African? Whatever, pass me the noodles."

Cultural diversity is what we strive for, so that everyone can appreciate every other culture. I, too, don't care who hands me my noodles, and I don't judge people at all by their race because I know better. Cultural unification through cultural ignorance, on the other hand, is oppressive as fuck.

Tsukatu wrote:If you think we should be able to tell things about people just by looking at them, then i'm afraid you're a racist.

I don't. Stop putting words in my mouth.
Do you remember when I said:
"I live in a very diverse area of California... virtually free of racial discrimination... The sort of world I want to see is one where differences between races is still just as recognized, but is tolerated just as much one would a member of his own race, just like the place I'm living now."
How the holy hell did you extract out of that the idea that I judge people at all based on race? That's the complete opposite of what I said. When I meet someone new, their race tells me jack shit about their personality and intelligence, because I realize that race has no meaningful effect whatsoever on these things. I can't tell a thing about someone based on race because I've known the full spectrum of people from all racial backgrounds, and every race, including Caucasian, has its low-lives just as it has its well-spoken and sophisticated.
You and I want the same end, more or less, it's just that we disagree on the best way to get there.

On an unrelated note, you should damned well be able to tell things about people just by looking at them. If there's a grungy man at my front door wearing a ski mask and holding a fireaxe, I haven't tried to make friends with him and I'm not going to. I also have this talent of figuring out people's gender just by looking at them. Isn't that wild? And I can tell people's approximate financial background based on the way they dress. Pretty cool, huh? And you're telling me this makes me racist?

Tsukatu, I think my general response to your ideas can be summed up by saying that we have different views on to what the relationship should be between culture and race. You seem to find the two interchangable, I like them separated as much as possible.

Tsukatu wrote:How the holy hell did you extract out of that the idea that I judge people at all based on race?

Oh, from this-

Tsukatu wrote:Wanting us all to be one indistinguishable people where one member can't tell a thing from another by looking at him sounds to me like some kind of fascist dystopian hell...

You were talking about race, right? I assumed you were, because the whole conversation was about race.

SkyPanda wrote:Tsukatu, I think my general response to your ideas can be summed up by saying that we have different views on to what the relationship should be between culture and race. You seem to find the two interchangable, I like them separated as much as possible.

Tsukatu wrote:How the holy hell did you extract out of that the idea that I judge people at all based on race?

Oh, from this-

Tsukatu wrote:Wanting us all to be one indistinguishable people where one member can't tell a thing from another by looking at him sounds to me like some kind of fascist dystopian hell...

You were talking about race, right? I assumed you were, because the whole conversation was about race.

Tsukatu wrote:racial discrimination is not the same as "being able to tell people apart based on race."

Not being able to tell people apart based on race describes a fascist, dystopian hell. Discrimination based on race, however, must be eliminated.
It is very possible to have a society in which race can be used to distinguish people but not discriminate against them, and everything is fair and happy. I live in such a place.

Citizen #17748395 wrote:

Citizen #00594958 wrote:How the holy hell did you extract out of that the idea that I judge people at all based on race?

Oh, from this-

Citizen #00594958 wrote:Wanting us all to be one indistinguishable people where one member can't tell a thing from another by looking at him sounds to me like some kind of fascist dystopian hell...

You were talking about race, right? I assumed you were, because the whole conversation was about race.

Opposition to a fascist distopia where everyone is indistinguishable does not make you a racist. Citizen #00594958 was just saying that we should accept people who look different, rather than pretending that everyone is exactly the same (or, gods help us, trying to make everyone the same, which is where the fascist distopia comes in). I mean, in a semi-related manner, I have green eyes. I don't want to live in a world where everyone skirts around it and refuses to recognize that my eyes are green. It would be as though my eye colour were some terrible deficiency which has to be hushed up to avoid hurting my feelings. I don't want to live in a world where people try to burn me as a witch because of my eyes, either, but that doesn't mean we should pretend that everyone has the same eye colour when they manifestly do not.

In short, mentioning that someone is %Race is only insulting if you believe being %Race is something they should be ashamed of. It isn't, so there's no reason to pussyfoot around and pretend it doesn't exist.

I'd like to be a Canadian. I think it'd be cool to have the entire top of my head come off when I talk.

I think it's going to happen, for lack of a better word, naturally. Social change in a box, dystopian hells not required.

Barring any major social upheavals, I don't see how increasingly multiracial and multicultural societies can lead to anything other than a blurring of racial distinctions and the further separation of race and culture. Perhaps it will never get to the point where the notion of race is extinct, but that's definitely the direction we're heading, and it's a good thing.

Tsukatu wrote:...and generally, as my whole point here is, accomplishes the end goal of tolerance of all races much better than imposing a unifying cultural standard on everyone.

Dammit, I think this pretty much shoots down everything I said about unifying cultural standards.
To quantify this for you, absolutely nothing.

SkyPanda wrote:

Tsukatu wrote:...and generally, as my whole point here is, accomplishes the end goal of tolerance of all races much better than imposing a unifying cultural standard on everyone.

Dammit, I think this pretty much shoots down everything I said about unifying cultural standards.
To quantify this for you, absolutely nothing.

The only way to eliminate racial differences, which is what you're proposing, is to blend everyone together into a single cultural soup. In other words, you have a standard in mind, one that is a unique composition of all existing cultures (see definition of "unified"), and you want everyone to follow it. I fail to see how this isn't "imposing a unifying cultural standard."

Well, mama always said that i am very unique, just like everyone else...

Sooo, I don't want to be like you. That would be boring. It may cause problems that will never be completely solved (even in America), variety is the spice of life :D

O and btw itd be tight to be irish (i know, their technically caucasian), i want to have their sweet accent. Or maybe i watch too much of the Boondock Saints

Tsukatu wrote:The only way to eliminate racial differences, which is what you're proposing, is to blend everyone together into a single cultural soup. In other words, you have a standard in mind, one that is a unique composition of all existing cultures (see definition of "unified"), and you want everyone to follow it.

Did I not make myself clear? Sorry.
I most definitely did not propose "eliminating racial differences", because that implies action. Any action taken to force people to not congregate by race, or to prevent people having notions of race, would be draconian. Perhaps you're reading too much into what I say, Tsukatu? Or perhaps i'm not saying enough and you're forced to fill in the gaps. If so, please don't hesitate to ask me to expand on my ideas. Otherwise further misunderstandings may occur, and that's no fun.

Topo wrote:It would be really cool to try being of a different ethnicity, but I wouldn't want to be a different person entirely.

this is what I really meant folks. I wasn't trying to impose racism, but I can certainly see how my question can sting someone. I have no problems with being white, except that my whole life I'm gonna have to gupl down criticisms of the fuck-ups made by my ancestors. but I can handle that. Tsukatu is absolutely right. I know people of different races and religions as well, and we always crack racist jokes at each other. I'm willing to take heat from any offense I have caused or anyone who is overreacting. I think a better thread would be "where do you come from?" sorry everybody

Why does Skypanda have something against racial/cultural identity? We can't all act like the same culture: some of us don't like to water our technicolor flowers on our plastic lawns while animated bluebirds land atop our platinum blonde hair to sing us the good morning song. Some of us have different identities. Dealing with people that have different identities, opinions, ideas, colors, belief structures, and what have you makes us social--it makes us human.



As for the initial question:

I would choose to be even whiter.

blue_tetris wrote:Why does Skypanda have something against racial/cultural identity?

He doesn't have anything against cultural identity! Just racial identity, or so he tells me.

Mr Tetris, as mentioned previously, I see race and culture as separate entities. When I discuss this with people back in real-world-land, inevitably some will switch from race to culture (often in the same sentence), and then glare at me as if I support monoculturalism or something. I can see where people may be coming from with the race=culture thing, after all, children inherit both race and culture from their parents. But in most modern societies, chances are they only retain one.
If we all lived in isolated little communities, and never travelled, then culture would equal race. But we don't, and it doesn't, and that's a beautiful thing.

Interesting that you brought up identity, though. What worth does racial identity have, exactly? Surely it's more meaningless with every new generation, and it was pretty worthless to begin with. I don't see any benefit of racial identity that isn't provided by other forms of identity, and in a manner less likely to inspire hatred or division.