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I want to make this explicitly clear: THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL DEBATE. Okay? Okay.

As most of you know (and if you don't, where have you been :p), I am a Christian. As all of you know, this community is almost entirely atheist or agnostic. Hear me out. Say you're a Democrat, and for whatever reason (use your imagination) you go to a Republican gathering. Now, there's not any reasonable chance you're going to convince anyone there that you're in the right. Best case scenario, you keep your political alignment intact and walk out of there irritated as all hell. That's kinda what it feels like here. I'm in such a vast minority here that no matter whether I'm right or wrong, little ol' me is not going to be able to sufficiently defend my faith against everyone here. Some of you will probably say "stay away from the debate forum," but I love seeing peoples' viewpoints on other things, and religion just has a way of getting brought up (even on IRC). I mean, most of you are really nice people, and I want to stay here and be a fairly active member of the community, but I can't keep doing this :(

Any suggestions?

Stop being stupid and accept that you are wrong. Always. Forever.

What's the problem? What's your point? As a former Christian I can say that you can probably manage to survive the horrors of an internet forum with your faith intact. And it is a faith, after all. I think you'll be fine. As far as being irritated goes, well, you don't need to be irritated. You are right, after all, right? Not that I'm promoting a smug self-righteous attitude; it's just that it's faith we're talking about here. I think if you can't stand your faith being challenged on an internet forum, you're probably not going to do much better anywhere else where atheists are, which I hear is pretty much everywhere nowadays. So get used to it. Atheists believe what they believe. You believe what you believe. You don't have to get irritated if we're getting irritated. You should do just fine even if said atheists are the guys you hang out with.

You really shouldn't get worked up or irritated over what some fools on the interwebs are saying. Half of it is made-up anyway, just to get a reaction.

yungerkid wrote:As a former Christian I can say that you can probably manage to survive the horrors of an internet forum with your faith intact.

>_>

yungerkid wrote:I think if you can't stand your faith being challenged on an internet forum, you're probably not going to do much better anywhere else where atheists are, which I hear is pretty much everywhere nowadays. So get used to it. Atheists believe what they believe. You believe what you believe. You don't have to get irritated if we're getting irritated. You should do just fine even if said atheists are the guys you hang out with.

Well, it's mostly just the frequency with which it happens. I think being challenged sometimes is good; it causes you to think critically, which is much much better than blind faith, obviously. But after it reaches a certain point, it's almost like I have anxiety over when it could be brought up yet again, you know?

epigone wrote:You really shouldn't get worked up or irritated over what some fools on the interwebs are saying. Half of it is made-up anyway, just to get a reaction.

Well, that's why I made this thread. I wasn't sure whether I'm overreacting or not. I mean, no matter what the case is here, I'm working on bettering myself as a person by not letting others' opinions get to me. I'm just kinda lost on what to do in the meantime before that aspect of myself is resolved.

In the words of someone that I may or may not have made up:

Chill out dude, it's the internet.

In my experience as someone who makes lots of unnecessary melodramatic rants, you can never convince to agree with you if they believe contrary to what you state. The only people you can really hope to convince are the fence sitters, and those who just get swept along with the flow of movements.

So what I'm trying to say, is that the best thing you could probably do at this point is go back, and study religion for a bit. Read through some texts from different religions, and gain a stronger view of what it is all about. One of two things will happen here, I think.

1) you will solidify your faith, to the point where it is unlikely that you will be convinced otherwise. At first, this may sound undesirable, as honestly, it is just plain ignorance, however, you have a right to be black-and-white-ignorant when it comes to faith. It's what you believe, and nobody can definitively state whether you are right or wrong.

2) You will realise that your faith is perhaps misplaced, and through reading the texts of other religions, find something that you can relate to better.

At the moment, I would guess that the reason that it seems a concern is because you /are/ being exposed to some very strong counter arguments, and ones which do have an impact on the validity of your faith. The most important thing to remember though, is that it isn't really important whether you are Christian or not. It may seem like it at this time, but that's merely because Christianity has been what you've identified yourself with your whole life. I can say from experience, that once you find a faith that reflects you more closely, you'll be happier then just blindly following something you only half believe in. I myself went from Anglicism, to a kind of Pseudo-Buddhism, to Satanism, and ultimately wound up making my own faith, an amalgam of those I had studied in the past.

So pretty much, check out the options, and then make an educated decision. It works out alright. :)

ＭＡＸＸＸＯＮ wrote:I'm working on bettering myself as a person by not letting others' opinions get to me.

This the exact opposite of the correct means of bettering yourself.

Perhaps what you're feeling is cognitive dissonance because deep inside you know your beliefs are wrong. I mean, in seriousness, if you really thought you were right, would hearing opposing viewpoints bother you so much?

coq_au_vin wrote:I mean, in seriousness, if you really thought you were right, would hearing opposing viewpoints bother you so much?

To some degree, yes. Those that argue that evolution cannot exist because god created everything rile me to no end.
as does this.
I mean seriously:

that page wrote:Scientists say all our genetic information is coded on DNA. But DNA is an acid! How can you write information in acid? You can write information on a hard drive, but not a liquid!

What the fuck?

@maxxon: I don't think you should take our atheism as a personal trial though. Accepting that we can believe something different and that not harm your faith is the first thing to do. Sure, if someone says "god doesn't exist and christians can suck my dick because they believe bullshit the bible is lies", besides them trolling pretty hard, I can see how you'd be offended. But a discussion of people's problems with the bible or whatever shouldn't be interpreted as a personal attack, it's just like someone discussing something I don't agree with and me reading that. Sure, it'd piss me off, but I'd have the opportunity to not read it and not get annoyed. I think you're being stupid to some degree, but stupid in an understandable way.
If you got annoyed at the above link as well, I'm glad.

Geti wrote:

coq_au_vin wrote:I mean, in seriousness, if you really thought you were right, would hearing opposing viewpoints bother you so much?

To some degree, yes. Those that argue that evolution cannot exist because god created everything rile me to no end.
as does this.
I mean seriously:

that page wrote:Scientists say all our genetic information is coded on DNA. But DNA is an acid! How can you write information in acid? You can write information on a hard drive, but not a liquid!

What the fuck?

Don't get too riled, it's satire.

You are Job, and we are part of God's final test for you.

Incidentally, you may have to kill one of us soon. Probably a user who is very dear to you.

squibbles wrote:In my experience as someone who makes lots of unnecessary melodramatic rants, you can never convince to agree with you if they believe contrary to what you state. The only people you can really hope to convince are the fence sitters, and those who just get swept along with the flow of movements.

So what I'm trying to say, is that the best thing you could probably do at this point is go back, and study religion for a bit. Read through some texts from different religions, and gain a stronger view of what it is all about. One of two things will happen here, I think.

1) you will solidify your faith, to the point where it is unlikely that you will be convinced otherwise. At first, this may sound undesirable, as honestly, it is just plain ignorance, however, you have a right to be black-and-white-ignorant when it comes to faith. It's what you believe, and nobody can definitively state whether you are right or wrong.

2) You will realise that your faith is perhaps misplaced, and through reading the texts of other religions, find something that you can relate to better.

At the moment, I would guess that the reason that it seems a concern is because you /are/ being exposed to some very strong counter arguments, and ones which do have an impact on the validity of your faith. The most important thing to remember though, is that it isn't really important whether you are Christian or not. It may seem like it at this time, but that's merely because Christianity has been what you've identified yourself with your whole life. I can say from experience, that once you find a faith that reflects you more closely, you'll be happier then just blindly following something you only half believe in. I myself went from Anglicism, to a kind of Pseudo-Buddhism, to Satanism, and ultimately wound up making my own faith, an amalgam of those I had studied in the past.

So pretty much, check out the options, and then make an educated decision. It works out alright. :)

I worded it poorly, but I did cover this aspect:

maxson wrote:Well, it's mostly just the frequency with which it happens. I think being challenged sometimes is good; it causes you to think critically, which is much much better than blind faith, obviously. But after it reaches a certain point, it's almost like I have anxiety over when it could be brought up yet again, you know?

My point was that I did keep coming to the debate forum etc. because I wanted to be sure I had a true belief. As Inspired said,

To be honest, I think my faith has grown due to Tsukatu rather than shrunk.

Same here. It made me think. Obviously it wouldn't be enough for you guys, as you've already formed your opinion on the other side of the debate, but it made me research; and I found more than enough to justify my own faith to myself.

Inspired wrote:There is "not letting others opinions get to me" in the sense that if someone thinks you're fat you don't let that degrade yourself, and then there is "not learning anything from anyone" which is hopefully not what you meant.

Yeah. I've always had a tendency to be quite a bit sensitive, and I'm trying to quite frankly grow the hell up :p

squibbles wrote:but that's merely because Christianity has been what you've identified yourself with your whole life.

That is incorrect. I may have been a Christian throughout elementary school (but honestly, that doesn't count; it was blind faith), but then I became an atheist for a couple years. A few years ago I realized that the main reason I became an atheist was because I was mad at God, not because I didn't believe he exists (so what the hell was I if I wasn't an atheist? o_o), so I reevaluated all the religions I could find. Christianity by far made the most sense. I actually think that's a good thing, because it means I actually came to these terms on my own from a neutral position, rather than being heavily influenced by my upbringing.

Geti wrote:If you got annoyed at the above link as well, I'm glad.

That "reverend" is a disgrace to all of mankind. Hell yes that link annoys me :p

ＭＡＸＸＸＯＮ wrote:

squibbles wrote:but that's merely because Christianity has been what you've identified yourself with your whole life.

That is incorrect. I may have been a Christian throughout elementary school (but honestly, that doesn't count; it was blind faith), but then I became an atheist for a couple years. A few years ago I realized that the main reason I became an atheist was because I was mad at God, not because I didn't believe he exists (so what the hell was I if I wasn't an atheist? o_o), so I reevaluated all the religions I could find. Christianity by far made the most sense. I actually think that's a good thing, because it means I actually came to these terms on my own from a neutral position, rather than being heavily influenced by my upbringing.

You've never not been a Christian. What you've erroneously called "Atheist" is actually a state of mind called "Angry Christian". It's also not a neutral position because you're always going to be heavily influenced by your upbringing and because, by your own admission, you never stopped believing in your Christian God. You didn't reevaluate your position and end up at the same place as you started. You never left!

What we debate here are inconsistencies in your various religious texts and the actions that various religions are responsible for, as well as the logical fallacies that a god actually exists. We don't hold you responsible for these things but we wonder why you still have faith in them. I think a lot of people believe in the possibility or the idea of a god but not in the religious sense.

Geti wrote:

coq_au_vin wrote:I mean, in seriousness, if you really thought you were right, would hearing opposing viewpoints bother you so much?

To some degree, yes. Those that argue that evolution cannot exist because god created everything rile me to no end.
as does this.
I mean seriously:

that page wrote:Scientists say all our genetic information is coded on DNA. But DNA is an acid! How can you write information in acid? You can write information on a hard drive, but not a liquid!

What the fuck?

There is being faithful, and then there is just being stupid. Believing that evolution never has, currently isn't, and won't happen is stupid; so is believing the earth is only 6000 years old and that DNA is just a giant science ploy to undermine religion. And I'm saying that as a catholic.

Inspired wrote:I think my faith has grown due to Tsukatu rather than shrunk. I actually printed out one of his tower-rants the other day and took it to youthgroup to show an alternate opinion. It was a brilliant discussion time.

Oh, shit, seriously? That is awesome.
Which one did you bring?

smartalco wrote:

Geti wrote:

coq_au_vin wrote:I mean, in seriousness, if you really thought you were right, would hearing opposing viewpoints bother you so much?

To some degree, yes. Those that argue that evolution cannot exist because god created everything rile me to no end.
as does this.
I mean seriously:

that page wrote:Scientists say all our genetic information is coded on DNA. But DNA is an acid! How can you write information in acid? You can write information on a hard drive, but not a liquid!

What the fuck?

There is being faithful, and then there is just being stupid. Believing that evolution never has, currently isn't, and won't happen is stupid; so is believing the earth is only 6000 years old and that DNA is just a giant science ploy to undermine religion. And I'm saying that as a catholic.

As far as the whole 6000 years old thing, I've believed that in the process of creation, the whole universe was sped up, kinda like a time accelerator. This would explain the whole thing about carbon dating, as whatever they use to determine that stuff would have also been accelerated. And DNA is awesome. I don't believe that religion and science have to be mutually exclusive.

ＭＡＸＸＸＯＮ wrote:I don't believe that religion and science have to be mutually exclusive.

You say this, but it seems to contradict pretty much everything else you just wrote:

ＭＡＸＸＸＯＮ wrote:As far as the whole 6000 years old thing, I've believed that in the process of creation, the whole universe was sped up, kinda like a time accelerator. This would explain the whole thing about carbon dating, as whatever they use to determine that stuff would have also been accelerated

If you really think that they aren't mutually exclusive, there would be no need to invent such a bizarre theory to try and force the two to coexist harmoniously. To paraphrase Suki on some other thread, "You are making stuff up (which you have no evidence for other than pure speculation) and believing it to be true." Surely you can see why this is ridiculous?

This is a good example of why so religion has become difficult to defend in the modern era: namely that as scientific methods have become more and more developed, religions have been shown to contain more and more holes that can't coexist with science very easily without altering either the original religious claims or certain elements of scientific theory until you're essentially just making shit up.

In a nutshell, science may be based in theory, but it's theory that damn well works. Religion is notoriously meant to be based entirely in faith, which to cynical atheists like myself is equivalent to just means wanting something to be true really badly, and consequently believing it to be so. Now, if it were possible to maintain a religious belief in tandem with scientific theory without altering either, then I'd be more inclined to listen to religious arguments. So far, however, I've yet to see a convincing argument of this sort which doesn't end up with the existence of God being irrelevant anyway.

ＭＡＸＸＸＯＮ wrote:As far as the whole 6000 years old thing, I've believed that in the process of creation, the whole universe was sped up, kinda like a time accelerator. This would explain the whole thing about carbon dating, as whatever they use to determine that stuff would have also been accelerated.

O.o Hold up, hold up. You can't just throw out this bombshell without any explanation. So, as I'm sure you're aware, radiocarbon dating is mainly used for organic remains from dig sites and the like and really only works back to about 60,000 years ago. In terms of all of Earth's history, that's a small time frame but it's still ten times what your Bible accounts for. Now, are you trying to tell me that during those 54,000 years and beyond, Earth was in some kind of time dilation?

Are... are you serious?

I was kind in my last post but this thread is bullshit, your religion is bullshit and you, sir, are bullshit.

[18:05:46] <@eevee> i was just throwing out a fucking theory
[18:05:49] <@eevee> for fuck's sake
[18:06:00] <@gloomp> but like
[18:06:05] <@eevee> i wasn't saying that time itself was warped
[18:06:13] <@gloomp> that's not a theory one can reasonably believe
[18:06:20] <@eevee> i was saying that the action that normally would've taken millions of years took much shorter
[18:06:24] <@eevee> like a jump start
[18:06:26] <@eevee> :/
[18:06:55] <@eevee> so no, no time warps

Another theory is one that I'm sure you've heard before: how a "day" wasn't really a day. At first I dismissed this, but days on Earth are classified by its rotation and revolution around the sun. The sun wasn't created until the fourth day. So the theory that each day had nothing to do with day as we perceive it is something I am considering. Is that less "bullshit"? :/

In any case, this is what I was talking about. It's /impossible/ for something like this to not break out T_T

All right, I am back.


WHAT THE FUCK? YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN EVOLUTION BECAUSE MONKEYS BECOMING PEOPLE THAT'S CRAZY BUT INSTEAD YOU BELIEVE THAT AFTER GOD CREATED THE WORLD HE ROCKETED ALL OF HUMANITY FORWARD BILLIONS OF YEARS?!?!??! WHY... GOD.... WORLD... TIME...

SO MANY QUESTIONS


1) Why would God not mention that in his book?
2) Why did God make time move so quickly?
3) Where did you get this theory? Do you have passages of the Bible to support it? Or science? Is there any science at all?
4) Is time still slowing down? Is that why the days seem longer with each passing day, another nostalgic memory lost to the criminal that is an empty future?
5) Why wouldn't God explain this, to attract more followers? Wouldn't he want more of us to go to HEaven?
6) How do you know that Satan is not in possession of the time accelerator?

THEN DISREGARD THAT THEORY ASDF

What about the other one?

I think this thread should be a poll, so that we can finally answer the question in the title, and when the votes come in at a whopping 243 "Yes" to 2 "No (You've got God's vote! Or maybe Donfuy's.)," we permanently ban Christianity from the internet.

SlappyMcGee wrote:4) Is time still slowing down? Is that why the days seem longer with each passing day, another nostalgic memory lost to the criminal that is an empty future?

Actually the universe is still expanding (and depending on who you ask, the rate at which it is expanding might also be increasing), leading to a massive cooling of the universe, until at some point everything will reach absolute zero, stopping all motion, and essentially, time.

So, in short, yes :P