The Problem of Evil

[Aldaric]

Your argument overlaps with itself. Read the bolded and underlined sentences / words. You will realize that being happy about something is subjective, not objective.

The want of happiness, is objective. In other words, the ultimate goal of all humans is to be the happiest that they can possibly be, is objective. BUT What makes you happy is subjective. I thought that was pretty clear.

How, then, do I know which happiness I should be aiming for?

Only you can answer that because what makes you the happiest is subjective. I am just saying that you will try to do what makes you the happiest.

...based on evidence, or because you've been raised into that belief by your parents/guardians/etc. Not because you think it would make you happy. The main point of a faith is that you have to, er, actually have faith. Even if you "choose" a religion to follow because you think it will make you happy, you're not really following it if you don't actually believe in it.

I think believing is a human action. Beliefs are thoughts, and thinking is an action after all. Beliefs are more subconscious actions though, they are not as obvious as kicking a ball or punching a wall. (Rhyme intended) Humans have an incapability to be random. Every action we do has a reason, and reasons for reasons have reasons. For example, love is a big reason for doing things, but why do we do things for love? What is more basic than love? Happiness. It is not the love itself that makes somebody happy, but it is the demonstration/act of loving that makes people happy. To be happy, you love. Love, just like beliefs, is a concept/thought. They are harder to think of as human actions, but they are just that. They are something you willingly do. They are voluntary. You don't just love somebody nor do you just believe something. You have a reason to believe and a reason to love. That reason is happiness. Happiness is not a human action, it is something we experience, therefore it has no reason. So yes, believing in what you believe makes you happy until believing what you believe does not make yo happy. That is when your beliefs change, and ultimately you change your beliefs in hopes of being more happy.

There is no way you could just start believing in God because you don't want to, you think your belief right now is better.

Er, exactly. I.e. belief isn't voluntary, in the sense that you mean.

Yes it is. You do not change it because it is not voluntary, you do not change it because you would not be more happy to change it. You can change beliefs, but only when you want to. You only want to when it makes you happier to believe in something else. You are only happier believing in something else when you are convinced that you were wrong before. When you are convinced that you were wrong before, you voluntarily want to change your belief. To a degree I understand what you are saying, but this is not even important if you still don't agree that it is voluntary. The important part is, that believing is a human action, and because it is a human action it has a reason. That reason is happiness. (Reason why I didn't specifically refer to your every argument Seneschal, was because I thought I would just repeat myself.)

[Seneschal]

I think believing is a human action. Beliefs are thoughts, and thinking is an action after all. Beliefs are more subconscious actions though, they are not as obvious as kicking a ball or punching a wall. (Rhyme intended) Humans have an incapability to be random. Every action we do has a reason, and reasons for reasons have reasons. For example, love is a big reason for doing things, but why do we do things for love? What is more basic than love? Happiness. It is not the love itself that makes somebody happy, but it is the demonstration/act of loving that makes people happy. To be happy, you love. Love, just like beliefs, is a concept/thought. They are harder to think of as human actions, but they are just that. They are something you willingly do. They are voluntary. You don't just love somebody nor do you just believe something. You have a reason to believe and a reason to love. That reason is happiness. Happiness is not a human action, it is something we experience, therefore it has no reason. So yes, believing in what you believe makes you happy until believing what you believe does not make yo happy. That is when your beliefs change, and ultimately you change your beliefs in hopes of being more happy.

Oh God. This paragraph is a monster of muddles ideas, with most actually being irrelevant.

Love, just like beliefs, is a concept/thought. They are harder to think of as human actions, but they are just that. They are something you willingly do. They are voluntary. You don't just love somebody nor do you just believe something.

Like most of your post, there’s not much to say other than that it’s just plain wrong. Have you ever heard the phrase “Love is blind”? There’s a reason that it exists. Love is something beyond our control. It isn’t voluntary. That’s one of the main features of love.

You have a reason to believe and a reason to love. That reason is happiness.

Happiness is a by-product of love. Happiness can be a by-product of believing in something. You don’t fall in love because it makes you happy; similarly, you can’t believe in something just because you feel happy believing in it. People fall in love because of things beyond their control, e.g. another person’s personality, their character traits, their appearance, etc. Likewise, people believe in things because of their upbringing, because of their environment, because of evidence for that belief, etc. As I have tried to explain to you many times, the reason for believing has nothing to do with happiness. Happiness is something that may come with believing. If happiness were the sole reason for beliefs, then surely everyone would join any religion that promised them happiness? Most major religions promise some sort of paradise after death, and yet there are atheists in the world. Because happiness is not a motivator for belief.

Happiness is not a human action, it is something we experience, therefore it has no reason.

I’m sorry, what? This is bullshit of the highest order. Of course there are reasons for happiness. Happiness is a direct result of a pleasing stimulus, it isn’t random. However, not only are you saying that there can never be a reason for anyone feeling happy, you’re also saying that everything independent of human thought has no reason behind it. Do I even need to provide examples to disprove this? Because that would be demeaning, and a waste of my time. Just think about what you’re writing next time, please :P

So yes, believing in what you believe makes you happy until believing what you believe does not make you happy.

This sentence is mindboggling. Its obvious nature aside, belief doesn’t necessarily bring happiness. You seem to think that whatever people believe, they’ll be happy believing it, which just isn’t the case. Think Puritanism, for example, or Calvinism. People may have been indoctrinated into these faiths, but that doesn’t mean they’ll enjoy those beliefs, it just means that they’ll think that those beliefs are true. Because people only believe things when they think that those things are true. It is impossible to believe something just because you think it will make you happy, you have to believe that it is true as well. I find it ironic that you posted this at the end of your post:

(Reason why I didn't specifically refer to your every argument Seneschal, was because I thought I would just repeat myself.)

when this is exactly what I’m trying to do to avoid patronising you.

ultimately you change your beliefs in hopes of being more happy.

No. You don’t. I’ve said this time and time again within this post and my last. Hopefully you will get the message this time. People do not change their beliefs because new beliefs would make them more happy. People change their beliefs because of evidence to the contrary, or because they discover a flaw in their beliefs, etc. Please get this idea out of your head.

You can change beliefs, but only when you want to. You only want to when it makes you happier to believe in something else. You are only happier believing in something else when you are convinced that you were wrong before. When you are convinced that you were wrong before, you voluntarily want to change your belief. To a degree I understand what you are saying, but this is not even important if you still don't agree that it is voluntary.

People change their beliefs even when they don’t want to. You may only “want” to change your beliefs when you feel that they will make you happier, but “want” has nothing to do with it. You seem to have agreed with me that belief is involuntary but then you bring “want” into your argument as if it had any relevancy. It doesn’t. Furthermore, being convinced that you were wrong before won’t necessarily make you happier in believing something else. Your argument is fallacious in that each point you make doesn’t even lead on from the previous point.
Also, you’re contradicting yourself:

You do not change it because it is not voluntary

but this is not even important if you still don't agree that it is voluntary.

You don’t seem to be able to decide yourself whether belief in voluntary of involuntary.

The important part is, that believing is a human action, and because it is a human action it has a reason. That reason is happiness.

The reason isn't happiness. The reason for changing a belief is encountering evidence contrary to that belief, or evidence that proves that the belief is inherently flawed and thus untrue. Happiness is irrelevant, I don't understand why you keep bringing it up. When someone is converted from one faith to another, it's not because they feel happier in their new faith, although they might, it's because they think that their previous faith is flawed in some way, and the one that they have been converted to is not.

I know I’ve repeated myself, but the point needs to be repeated as you don’t seem to be paying it much attention when I say it just once :P

[Tunco]

Your argument overlaps with itself. Read the bolded and underlined sentences / words. You will realize that being happy about something is subjective, not objective.

The want of happiness, is objective. In other words, the ultimate goal of all humans is to be the happiest that they can possibly be, is objective. BUT What makes you happy is subjective. I thought that was pretty clear.

AND

The important part is, that believing is a human action, and because it is a human action it has a reason. That reason is happiness.

The reason isn't happiness. The reason for changing a belief is encountering evidence contrary to that belief, or evidence that proves that the belief is inherently flawed and thus untrue. Happiness is irrelevant, I don't understand why you keep bringing it up. When someone is converted from one faith to another, it's not because they feel happier in their new faith, although they might, it's because they think that their previous faith is flawed in some way, and the one that they have been converted to is not.

I know I’ve repeated myself, but the point needs to be repeated as you don’t seem to be paying it much attention when I say it just once :P

Uh, seriously, what? You're actually out of your point and common sense now, Aldaric. As Seneschal said (and has been saying so far :P) that happiness is NOT -NOT- ---NOT--- the reason to do things. You say that you fall in love to be happy? (Please refer to the question mark if you don't understand the real meaning of that sentence) I mean, (as Seneschal said) you fall in love because of the person's appereance, etc. Not to be happy. If you want to be happy by falling in love, that's okay, you can even fall in love to your mom (literally) if you want to be happy, which is not logical. I do not want to repeat him (Seneschal), although, you also say that you can be happy - with deciding something that you know - that it will make you happy. (I'm going to divide sentences like that to you guys to understand, referring this to Aldaric) I mean, basically, what you say is something like;
"I'm really hungry and I got the money to make myself full but I know that eating the meal will make me happy but what can I do I am /already/ happy because I /know/ it will make me happy."

Don't you see what you're pointing, Aldaric?

You say that feeling or sense (which the feeling or sense here is becoming happy) could be realized or feeled or thought before the action (which the action here is eating the hamburger, whom you never do it), which is plain wrong.

...

:/

[otters~1]

The signal:noise ratio in this topic is pretty low.

Haha.

Demonz, or Tsukatu, what would you say to the statement that all (or almost all) "actions, beliefs, and emotions" are subconscious efforts to increase happiness? I'm curious.

[otters~1]

Demonz, or Tsukatu, what would you say to the statement that all (or almost all) "actions, beliefs, and emotions" are subconscious efforts to increase happiness? I'm curious.

No, I would not say that. A lot of unconscious processes are survival mechanisms that are optimized for a very different environment than the place where most people live today. It's not about emotional health, it's about evolutionary adaptations that helped people survive thousands of years ago on the African Savannah or wherever.

Most if not at all of our subconcious reactions are about survival, yes. And doesn't survival make us happy?

[Aldaric]

Have you ever heard the phrase “Love is blind”? There’s a reason that it exists. Love is something beyond our control. It isn’t voluntary. That’s one of the main features of love.

I agree there is a reason that love exists. What is that reason. What else could it possibly be except for happiness? Let me give you an example. You are going to go out with your friends tonight. (I don't know what you like, but imagine you all will be going to do your favorite thing.) What ever you are going to do, it is going to be one of the most fun nights of your life, but you Mom gets sick and she needs you to be by her side. You are going to stay with your Mom, and help her. This act of love and sacrifice brings you more happiness than going to whatever you were going to with your friends. In this example, you voluntarily decide to show/demonstrate your love instead of going to the fun thing. If you believe it or not, there is something going on in the subconsciousness that knows that you will be more happy showing your love for your mother. I am not saying that love is voluntary. I am saying that ACTS of love are voluntary. I can always explain the actions demonstrating my love. It is possible to consciously think that you are going to do something for happiness, you just have to except that happiness is the reason. You already except it for somethings, like video games. You can think, "I am going to play N because I am bored and N is fun, and when I am having fun I am happy." The same thing can apply for more profound human actions. Usually, humans know it on a subconscious level only, but it is possible to know it on a conscious level as well.

Happiness is a by-product of love. Happiness can be a by-product of believing in something.

I agree, because of this by-product humans love and believe. All humans, subconsciously or consciously or both, desire this by-product.

You don’t fall in love because it makes you happy; similarly, you can’t believe in something just because you feel happy believing in it. People fall in love because of things beyond their control, e.g. another person’s personality, their character traits, their appearance, etc. Likewise, people believe in things because of their upbringing, because of their environment, because of evidence for that belief, etc.

Since you are using the example of loving another person let us stay with that example. The person that makes you the happiest will be the person you fall in love with. You said yourself that happiness is a by-product of love. So logically, the one you love the most will always be the one that makes you the happiest. The more love, the more by-product of happiness you will have. If their personality, traits, and appearance make you love her/him more than somebody else, you will be more happy loving him/her than the other person. Using the same logic as above, it is impossible to love somebody more than someone else without being happier loving that person you love more. The same thing applies for the beliefs. You can't believe in one thing more than another with out being happier believing in the thing you believe more.

As I have tried to explain to you many times, the reason for believing has nothing to do with happiness. Happiness is something that may come with believing. If happiness were the sole reason for beliefs, then surely everyone would join any religion that promised them happiness? Most major religions promise some sort of paradise after death, and yet there are atheists in the world. Because happiness is not a motivator for belief.

The atheists don't believe in the paradise after death, they do not believe in the promises of happiness promised by the religions. They believe in scientific explanations more, which means that they will receive more by-product of happiness from the thing they believe in the most.

Of course there are reasons for happiness. Happiness is a direct result of a pleasing stimulus, it isn’t random. However, not only are you saying that there can never be a reason for anyone feeling happy, you’re also saying that everything independent of human thought has no reason behind it.

You misunderstood me. The reason you would want to do something is for more good by-product than bad by-product. When there is more good by-product than bad by-product you are happy. The reason for happiness is happiness. There is nothing more basic than happiness.

So yes, believing in what you believe makes you happy until believing what you believe does not make you happy.

This sentence is mindboggling. Its obvious nature aside, belief doesn’t necessarily bring happiness. You seem to think that whatever people believe, they’ll be happy believing it, which just isn’t the case. Think Puritanism, for example, or Calvinism. People may have been indoctrinated into these faiths, but that doesn’t mean they’ll enjoy those beliefs, it just means that they’ll think that those beliefs are true. Because people only believe things when they think that those things are true. It is impossible to believe something just because you think it will make you happy, you have to believe that it is true as well.

Like I explained above, if you believe in something more than some other belief, you have to get more happiness from what you believe in more. You have to put yourself in the believer's shoes. If I believed that causing myself pain would make my God happy, I would make the sacrifice of hurting myself to please my God because in my opinion I would get/receive more good by-product than bad by-product from doing it, which would make me happy. Sacrifices are considered losses because they are not perfect, but when you choose to sacrifice something consciously or subconsciously you are aware that it will make you happier to do it. Like the taking care of the sick mom example. You sacrifice that fun night with your friends, but you gain demonstrating your love for your mother. If you actually knew subconsciously or consciously that helping your mother would not bring more happiness than the fun night out with friends, you would go with your friends. That sounds terrible to us, but in the opinion of the person who goes with his friends it is not. It is a matter of perspective.

People do not change their beliefs because new beliefs would make them more happy. People change their beliefs because of evidence to the contrary, or because they discover a flaw in their beliefs, etc. Please get this idea out of your head.

We agree, you just don't realize it. People do change their beliefs because of evidence to the contrary or they have discovered a flaw in their original belief or for what ever reason they believe is a good reason to believe in the new believe more. When you change your belief, you believe in the new belief more, which will have that benefit of a larger by-product of happiness. Again because it is important, subconsciously or consciously it is happiness that makes a person change their belief because the reason for doing something is to get more good by-product than bad by-product. More good makes you happier.

Also, you’re contradicting yourself:

You do not change it because it is not voluntary

but this is not even important if you still don't agree that it is voluntary.

You don’t seem to be able to decide yourself whether belief in voluntary of involuntary.

The first quote is a double negative. So it means I think it is voluntary. The second quote says YOU don't agree that it is voluntary. I am not contradicting myself.

You say that feeling or sense (which the feeling or sense here is becoming happy) could be realized or feeled or thought before the action (which the action here is eating the hamburger, whom you never do it), which is plain wrong.

First, most of the stuff you were saying should be answered by my response to Seneschal. Second, this is NOT-NOT----NOT--- what I am saying at all. I am saying that because you know that eating the hamburger will make you happy, you WILL eat it.

Aldaric, your insistence that all actions, beliefs, and emotions are conscious efforts to increase happiness flies in the face of any real-world experience and mountains of scientific research. It's just obvious that not all neurological processes are consciously controlled.

Not consciously controlled, but they can be consciously perceived. I am saying that you have no real control over the whole thing. I just think it is possible to understand why you do it. All these decisions to achieve the most happiness possible are uncontrollable natural human acts. If you want to or not, you are going to do things with the ultimate purpose of being happy. Even though, you don't have any control, it is still voluntary because you are doing it. It sounds like a contradiction but it is not. What I am trying to say is, actions that are forced by yourself are voluntary. When you want to do it, when you make yourself do it, it is voluntary. Something is only involuntarily when something else makes you do something. You are forcing yourself subconsciously to be the happiest that is possible.

People don't decide to fall in love, and if you'd ever been in love or even felt strong affection, you'd know this was the case. Love is a set of electrochemical interactions in your brain that the conscious "you" has no ability to control. People don't decide to dream, to have reflexes, or to breathe, either. If you were to study the adaptive unconscious, you'd be surprised how much decision making, learning, and observation can take place long before people realize that these events have occurred, let alone have rationalized them with goals like "happiness." I tend to think that you would have a very different perspective on this topic if you were to read a little bit about unconscious processes in the brain and/or live a few more years of your life.

I think that human actions always have reasons and you can always find the reasons, therefore they can always be rationalized. More over, I believe enough in my view to say that every reason can be further rationalized to one thing, happiness.

Most if not at all of our subconscious reactions are about survival, yes. And doesn't survival make us happy?

This is my point exactly. These reasons, these subconscious actions to survive, can be rationalized/explained by happiness. Any example of a human action you give can be explained by happiness.

Sorry if my post is huge, but I am trying to debate against a lot of people... so yeah sorry if my long posts piss you off.

[Tanner]

Not consciously controlled, but they can be consciously perceived. I am saying that you have no real control over the whole thing. I just think it is possible to understand why you do it. All these decisions to achieve the most happiness possible are uncontrollable natural human acts. If you want to or not, you are going to do things with the ultimate purpose of being happy. Even though, you don't have any control, it is still voluntary because you are doing it. It sounds like a contradiction but it is not. What I am trying to say is, actions that are forced by yourself are voluntary. When you want to do it, when you make yourself do it, it is voluntary. Something is only involuntarily when something else makes you do something. You are forcing yourself subconsciously to be the happiest that is possible.

Hahaha! This paragraph is such a hot tranny mess. I admire all of you that still have the stamina to continue with this thread. And by "admire" I mean "feel sorry for".

And by "thread" I mean "life".

[Aldaric]

Not consciously controlled, but they can be consciously perceived. I am saying that you have no real control over the whole thing. I just think it is possible to understand why you do it. All these decisions to achieve the most happiness possible are uncontrollable natural human acts. If you want to or not, you are going to do things with the ultimate purpose of being happy. Even though, you don't have any control, it is still voluntary because you are doing it. It sounds like a contradiction but it is not. What I am trying to say is, actions that are forced by yourself are voluntary. When you want to do it, when you make yourself do it, it is voluntary. Something is only involuntarily when something else makes you do something. You are forcing yourself subconsciously to be the happiest that is possible.

Hahaha! This paragraph is such a hot tranny mess. I admire all of you that still have the stamina to continue with this thread. And by "admire" I mean "feel sorry for".

And by "thread" I mean "life".

The idea proposed, is by no means a hot tranny mess. (Whatever that means, I assume it is negative.) It is a very important idea that is core to my belief.
From Merriam Webster - Voluntary implies freedom and spontaneity of choice or action without external compulsion. When you force yourself to do something it is internal compulsion, thus remaining voluntary. With every choice or action we make, consciously or subconsciously, we try to be the happiest we can possible be. It is impossible to not do something we think will make us the happiest. Sometimes we are wrong, sometimes we screw up and make a decision that does not make us the happiest possible, but when we were in the moment making this bad decision we thought it would bring us the most happiness. That is why I used the word try in place of do. Sometimes we don't make the best decision, but we always think it is the best at the moment of the choosing.

[Aldaric]

I am not saying that. Look at what you wrote.

Aldaric, you are misinterpreting what "voluntary" means. By your definition, the kick reflex in your leg when someone hits it with a mallet is "voluntary" and the pain you would feel if someone were to slap you in the face is voluntary as well. This is an obviously nonsensical definition.

When someone else does it, it is not voluntary. Slapping yourself in the face is a voluntary action. Pain is a survival response, and surviving makes you happy. Your body voluntarily does things to make you happy without you having to think about it.

[Aldaric]

Sorry if I am being obnoxious. I don't want to be. Anyways, I believe that unconscious human actions are voluntary. Your brain does tell your heart to beat, it is just a part of the brain you can't use. Maybe that is for the better, I would hate to forget to tell my heart to beat. The point is, unconscious or conscious a human action is always voluntary.

If you could give me just one example that is contrary to this, I will stop.

[Aldaric]

It is not because it is inside you. It is because your brain orders it to happen. Anything your brain makes you do is voluntary. Your brain does not make chemical reactions happen, it makes it possible for the chemical reactions to occur. You brain is voluntarily controlling your body to allow a situation in which a chemical reaction would occur to help you.

[Aldaric]

Do you understand what a brain is? You are a chemical reaction, bud.

No, I am not a chemical reaction. I am something much much more. I am a lot of chemical reactions. Put together correctly, they can do many amazing things. The brain voluntarily makes chemical reactions to let the chemical reactions happen, which in return let the brain make more chemical reactions. It is a circle that is hard to explain. This circle is on an unconscious level of course, but you can consciously perceive that it happens to make you live.

[Aldaric]

It's hyperbole. And I'm done with this. Nothing personal, this is just very wearisome.

You stop arguing because you are happier not arguing with me than arguing with me. It makes you weary to read what I write, so you have decided that it is better to just let it be. Which, in the long run makes you happier than trying to convince me ever could.

[unoriginal name]

Okay, yeah, I don't think anyone still wants to argue at you, Brickwalldaric. I'm locking this. If anyone in the future feels like they have something to say about the Problem of Evil, feel free to ask for an unlock.