Metanet 0ths Thread

[ska]

Also, things like double jumps, corner pushes (at the end of corridors and top corners, by the way, a well timed corridor push can save as much as 0.2 seconds and a downpush as much as 0.3!), corner kicks and even subtle things like the immediate wall jumps at the start of levels such as 23-1 for instance. We take a lot of these 'minivations' for granted and a lot of the time, a 0th is almost unobtainable without using these commonplace innovations which weren't really known about back in the early days of highscoring.

[Raif]

What's your point ska? There are NUMA maps from like late 2004 or early 2005 showing that people knew about most of these tricks.
It was their choice not to use them. The boards had not been perfected yet to the point you were forced to use them.

[ska]

[01:19] <@ska> springs
[01:19] <Zapmeister> mm-hmm?
[01:19] <@ska> once you figured out how to double jump
[01:20] <@ska> how long did it take you to master it?
[01:20] <@ska> by that
[01:20] <@ska> i mean on bounce blocks
[01:20] <@ska> not triple jumps
[01:20] <Zapmeister> well
[01:20] <@ska> Was it more or less instantaneous?
[01:21] <Zapmeister> in fact i learnt to double jump on bounceblocks only quite late-ish in my highscoring career, mainly because i never had got myself in a situation where i really needed them
[01:21] <Zapmeister> e.g. see my 37-4
[01:21] <Zapmeister> well yeah it didn't really take too mch effort
[01:21] <@ska> i rest my case
[01:22] <Zapmeister> possibly because i'd been playing for a long while before that

Anyway, my point is that these things were not really inherently designed to be part of the game, and once they were (how soon that was is completely irrelevant), it changed how everyone played the game.

[eru_bahagon]

@ska : I disagree. I mean, I don't find runs from j-f, trib or others that hard to beat without any innovations. I usually copy existing elements (sometimes I mix) but you can really beat these runs just by doing things slightly better, like better timing (even on ground jumps). You can simply correct their mistakes : it's not innovation.
For example, 47-4. I beat L3X (like easily), w/o changing anything. (yes, I'm losing .3 at the beginning... and I don't run into the wall at the end -is that innovation?)

Outside of a few amazing runs (88-1, 30-3, 56-2, ..., and short maps), most of them, and you can check, can be beaten just by cleaning.
The fact is that actual player have 400k+ runs, then it seems normal we are doing less mistakes than older players.

The biggest problem is that Lim got such reputation, that most people will just use his route because they don't think it's possible that he could have missed something.

I disagree with that. It's not about the reputation. It's that your are the only who actually tried complete route changes since, providing faster routes that are actually easier. Outside of you, most innovations are now involving hard tricks and are just that : adding difficulty to save time.
Personally, I never change routes in a faster way, more like in an easier way to get a good score quickly (episode purpose). But I've really never asked myself : "can we do it differently, do we miss something ?". No, I never try to. I'd never try something like your 47-0, 28-0, etc...

Most players just copy, sometimes we modify one jump or so, sometimes we mix a bit. But that's all.


EDIT : I've seen the discussion in moving into tricks knowledge. Let's be honest, all tricks were known by j-f and stuff. Their runs were simply not that good.

[Raif]

0th is almost unobtainable without using these commonplace innovations which weren't really known about back in the early days of highscoring.

There are NUMA maps from like late 2004 or early 2005 showing that people knew about most of these tricks.

Anyway, my point is that these things were not really inherently designed to be part of the game, and once they were (how soon that was is completely irrelevant), it changed how everyone played the game.

Huh? So now the timeframe doesn't matter?

Ska's argument is basically:

ska: People didn't know about this back then.
me: No they did.
ska: Oh the time at which they learnt it is irrelevant.

[vankusss]

ska: People didn't know about this back then.
me: No they did.
ska: Oh the time at which they learnt it is irrelevant.

LAWYERED

I disagree with that.

I disagree with that (which basically means that I agree with myself).

Outside of a few amazing runs (88-2, 30-3, 56-2, ..., and short maps)

I find the choice of runs really weird in this one (except 56-2).

[ska]

Raif, I'm a bit frustrated in your haughtiness in this matter since you weren't actually around the scene in 2004/2005 (to my knowledge) like I was.

And no doubt, it goes without saying that the current generation of highscorers are on the whole, are more skilful (obviously), but I never was claiming that they were on a level playing field like you are implying they were. If I did, I'd be negating my own argument. (I actually think that a lot of the older players [excluding perhaps clux] could have improved their runs even further if they were pushed more by better players while they were active.) I also never claimed that all of these runs were hard to beat without innovation, but a bulk of them are. The only reason Johnny's 29-2 was ever beaten was due to my innovation, and indeed without it, it's unlikely I or anyone else would have taken it.

Also

ska: People didn't know about this back then.
me: No they did.
ska: Oh the time at which they learnt it is irrelevant.

LAWYERED

I disagree with that.

I disagree with that (which basically means that I agree with myself).

Outside of a few amazing runs (88-2, 30-3, 56-2, ..., and short maps)

I find the choice of runs really weird in this one (except 56-2).

Your argument is nonsensical, raif.. you just used a couple of non sequiturs out of context. Both of those sentences were referring to different things if you even paid any attention. I was just stating that since a lot of these things were not commonplace, it was rare that runs would reach their full potential. Competition drives innovation is the crux of my argument. Why should trib4l bother to seek out innovations when he had like 90% of the 0ths? clux probably would've settled with his 0th on 70-0 if JF didn't innovate the start and cause clux to innovate the thwump part.

Edit: This is all I was really trying to say... don't know why it was so controversial.

[Raif]

Raif, I'm a bit frustrated in your haughtiness in this matter since you weren't actually around the scene in 2004/2005 (to my knowledge) like I was.

I wasn't trying to be haughty or anything. It's correct that I wasn't around in 2004/2005, but I was making a bunch of logical deductions based on what I knew.
I also like my posts to be short and to the point, instead of writing long paragraphs and dancing around the issue. I'm sorry if you thought I was implying that I was better than you, or something, due to the writing style of my posts.
I think I misinterpreted what you were trying to say in your second and third post by a bit, as well.

Competition drives innovation is the crux of my argument. Why should trib4l bother to seek out innovations when he had like 90% of the 0ths?

It was their choice not to use them. The boards had not been perfected yet to the point you were forced to use them.

We seem to be on the same page on this issue now.
There was no reason to use those innovs in runs at that point in time.
They could have, but they choose not to, since they didn't need to.

So how about we shake hands now, and forget about this little disagreement? (I am not being sarcastic or anything, as to avoid any misinterpretations.)

[ska]

Agreed. I think we both essentially thought the same thing, but there was some unintended derision extrapolated from each other's posts.



Wow! An argument solved on the internet! I don't believe it.

Small disclaimer

Referring mainly to the 'major' innovations: I wouldn't say that they chose not to do it explicitly, rather, that they were, on the most part, unaware because A) it hadn't been discovered or executed yet or B) they didn't attempt to seek out an alternative, faster method, or if they did, they couldn't find it, execute it, or believe it was actually faster compared to the initial route. (a more common occurrence than you'd think).

[vankusss]

56-1 with a new route, hurray!

EDIT: kody, you might want to try this $###50000000000021010101000000000000000010101010000000000000000101000101000000000000001010001010000000000000010101010100000000000000101010101100000000000001010101010000000000000010101010100000000000000101010001000O000O000O001010100010000000000000010101010000000000000000101010100000000000000001010101010000000000000010101010100I000I000I0000010101010000H000H000H00010101010000000000000010101011100000000000000101010101000000000000001000101010000000000000010001000100000Q000Q0000101010001000000000000001010101010000000000000010111010100000000000000101010100000000000000001010101000000000000000010101010100000000000000100010101000000000000001000101010000000000000010101010100000000000000101000100040000000000031010001000|5^132,564!6^468,564,1,0,0,0!6^468,468,0,0,0,2!6^276,372,0,0,0,2!6^660,372,1,0,0,0!6^564,324,1,0,0,2!6^132,324,0,0,0,0!0^252,564!0^228,564!0^204,564!0^180,564!0^324,516!0^348,516!0^372,516!0^396,516!0^468,516!0^444,516!0^516,420!0^540,420!0^636,420!0^612,420!0^588,420!0^60,468!0^36,468!0^60,420!0^36,420!0^36,372!0^60,372!0^84,372!0^108,372!0^756,372!0^732,372!0^708,372!0^756,564!0^756,540!0^756,516!0^732,516!0^732,564!12^516,228!12^516,132!12^252,84!12^252,180!12^252,276!8^516,276,2!8^252,228,0!8^516,180,2!8^252,132,0!8^516,84,2!11^420,564,372,36!0^396,252!0^372,204!0^396,156!0^372,108!0^396,60!0^732,540!12^258,72!12^258,168!12^258,264!12^510,216!12^510,120!12^504,132!12^504,228!12^264,276!12^264,180!12^264,84#348:17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|856337|107374272|35791462|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|115483170|89985062|89478485|17895701|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|4480273|40265324|35791394|89509922|89478485|36071013|35791394|35791394|35791394|35792494|237117986|35791398|35840546|35791394|107376162|107374182|35791398|35791394|35791394|26338|89478493|17895701|107405313|91711078|89478485|17895697|17895697|1#
if it's possible, should be able to save another 0.5/1 second

[Raif]

56-1 with a new route, hurray!

Hurray! Now improve!

[vankusss]

Hurray! Now improve!

NO! NO! I don't need to!

Mom, I don't need to, right? Right?

[eru_bahagon]

I was so convinced that it was kind of maxed. Good job!

I'm waiting for Kody^^

PS : that last drone must have killed you a couple of time. close dodge^^

[vankusss]

I was so convinced that it was kind of maxed. Good job!

I'm waiting for Kody^^

PS : that last drone must have killed you a couple of time. close dodge^^

Yea that last drone did get me a few times... Stupid drones.
Btw the old route wasn't maxed, according to Raif you are ahead of xaelar before the final cs (you screw your lead there).

[Kool]

I'm waiting for Kody^^

hehe, no need to wait.

spoiler alert

taken
I see you van, nice .850 I raise it .050, still improving :P

[TheRealOne]

I'm waiting for Kody^^

hehe, no need to wait.

spoiler alert

taken
I see you van, nice .850 I raise it .050, still improving :P

Well shit we might as well max this route then until someone finds a way to get the missed gold.

[Raif]

92-2 from Izzy with innov. I do not expect this 0th to last long against Kody, though. :P

(innov is worth anything from about 3 to 5 frames by my testing, you could probably get more by adding a jump on the slope.)

[ska]

I'm waiting for Kody^^

hehe, no need to wait.

spoiler alert

taken
I see you van, nice .850 I raise it .050, still improving :P

Well shit we might as well max this route then until someone finds a way to get the missed gold.

Like this?
$###50000000000021010101000000000000000010101010000000000000000101000101000000000000001010001010000000000000010101010100000000000000101010101100000000000001010101010000000000000010101010100000000000000101010001000O000O000O001010100010000000000000010101010000000000000000101010100000000000000001010101010000000000000010101010100I000I000I0000010101010000H000H000H00010101010000000000000010101011100000000000000101010101000000000000001000101010000000000000010001000100000Q000Q0000101010001000000000000001010101010000000000000010111010100000000000000101010100000000000000001010101000000000000000010101010100000000000000100010101000000000000001000101010000000000000010101010100000000000000101000100040000000000031010001000|5^132,564!6^468,564,1,0,0,0!6^468,468,0,0,0,2!6^276,372,0,0,0,2!6^660,372,1,0,0,0!6^564,324,1,0,0,2!6^132,324,0,0,0,0!0^252,564!0^228,564!0^204,564!0^180,564!0^324,516!0^348,516!0^372,516!0^396,516!0^468,516!0^444,516!0^516,420!0^540,420!0^636,420!0^612,420!0^588,420!0^60,468!0^36,468!0^60,420!0^36,420!0^36,372!0^60,372!0^84,372!0^108,372!0^756,372!0^732,372!0^708,372!0^756,564!0^756,540!0^756,516!0^732,516!0^732,564!12^516,228!12^516,132!12^252,84!12^252,180!12^252,276!8^516,276,2!8^252,228,0!8^516,180,2!8^252,132,0!8^516,84,2!11^420,564,372,36!0^396,252!0^372,204!0^396,156!0^372,108!0^396,60!0^732,540!12^258,72!12^258,168!12^258,264!12^510,216!12^510,120!12^504,132!12^504,228!12^264,276!12^264,180!12^264,84#568:17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|115462417|107374182|35792486|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|107880994|89478610|89478485|17895765|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|36576529|35791394|139810|89478493|73811556|107374182|107374182|35791398|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|237117986|17895890|17895697|107880465|89409126|89478485|18175317|17895697|115483137|107374182|107374182|107374182|35791398|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|17895426|17895697|89478609|89986389|89478485|89478485|22369621|17895697|107374289|88360038|105207109|88360006|18175045|89478609|22369621|139537|35791392|35791394|290|35651584|546|65536|16777216|17895697|1#

Possibility of being pulled off in real-time: Extremely Unlikely.

[vankusss]

92-2 from Izzy with innov.

ba dum, ts

[TheRealOne]

Like this?
$###50000000000021010101000000000000000010101010000000000000000101000101000000000000001010001010000000000000010101010100000000000000101010101100000000000001010101010000000000000010101010100000000000000101010001000O000O000O001010100010000000000000010101010000000000000000101010100000000000000001010101010000000000000010101010100I000I000I0000010101010000H000H000H00010101010000000000000010101011100000000000000101010101000000000000001000101010000000000000010001000100000Q000Q0000101010001000000000000001010101010000000000000010111010100000000000000101010100000000000000001010101000000000000000010101010100000000000000100010101000000000000001000101010000000000000010101010100000000000000101000100040000000000031010001000|5^132,564!6^468,564,1,0,0,0!6^468,468,0,0,0,2!6^276,372,0,0,0,2!6^660,372,1,0,0,0!6^564,324,1,0,0,2!6^132,324,0,0,0,0!0^252,564!0^228,564!0^204,564!0^180,564!0^324,516!0^348,516!0^372,516!0^396,516!0^468,516!0^444,516!0^516,420!0^540,420!0^636,420!0^612,420!0^588,420!0^60,468!0^36,468!0^60,420!0^36,420!0^36,372!0^60,372!0^84,372!0^108,372!0^756,372!0^732,372!0^708,372!0^756,564!0^756,540!0^756,516!0^732,516!0^732,564!12^516,228!12^516,132!12^252,84!12^252,180!12^252,276!8^516,276,2!8^252,228,0!8^516,180,2!8^252,132,0!8^516,84,2!11^420,564,372,36!0^396,252!0^372,204!0^396,156!0^372,108!0^396,60!0^732,540!12^258,72!12^258,168!12^258,264!12^510,216!12^510,120!12^504,132!12^504,228!12^264,276!12^264,180!12^264,84#568:17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|115462417|107374182|35792486|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|107880994|89478610|89478485|17895765|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|36576529|35791394|139810|89478493|73811556|107374182|107374182|35791398|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|237117986|17895890|17895697|107880465|89409126|89478485|18175317|17895697|115483137|107374182|107374182|107374182|35791398|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|17895426|17895697|89478609|89986389|89478485|89478485|22369621|17895697|107374289|88360038|105207109|88360006|18175045|89478609|22369621|139537|35791392|35791394|290|35651584|546|65536|16777216|17895697|1#

Possibility of being pulled off in real-time: Extremely Unlikely.

Yeah me and Raif were trying to discuss a way to fall through the thwumps. I thinking a CJ going up the left side of the triangles would be the way to do it, but I don't know if you can get in front of the drone coming out of the bottom enough to make that CJ.

92-2 from Izzy with innov.

Nice. I see room for improvement there. That landing looks tough though. How often did you get it?

[EddyMataGallos]

Took ep22 & improvewd my 22-4:) Following is my last exam week, then Ill have more time to play (Hadnt played for like 10 days, new record!)

[ska]

Like this?
$###50000000000021010101000000000000000010101010000000000000000101000101000000000000001010001010000000000000010101010100000000000000101010101100000000000001010101010000000000000010101010100000000000000101010001000O000O000O001010100010000000000000010101010000000000000000101010100000000000000001010101010000000000000010101010100I000I000I0000010101010000H000H000H00010101010000000000000010101011100000000000000101010101000000000000001000101010000000000000010001000100000Q000Q0000101010001000000000000001010101010000000000000010111010100000000000000101010100000000000000001010101000000000000000010101010100000000000000100010101000000000000001000101010000000000000010101010100000000000000101000100040000000000031010001000|5^132,564!6^468,564,1,0,0,0!6^468,468,0,0,0,2!6^276,372,0,0,0,2!6^660,372,1,0,0,0!6^564,324,1,0,0,2!6^132,324,0,0,0,0!0^252,564!0^228,564!0^204,564!0^180,564!0^324,516!0^348,516!0^372,516!0^396,516!0^468,516!0^444,516!0^516,420!0^540,420!0^636,420!0^612,420!0^588,420!0^60,468!0^36,468!0^60,420!0^36,420!0^36,372!0^60,372!0^84,372!0^108,372!0^756,372!0^732,372!0^708,372!0^756,564!0^756,540!0^756,516!0^732,516!0^732,564!12^516,228!12^516,132!12^252,84!12^252,180!12^252,276!8^516,276,2!8^252,228,0!8^516,180,2!8^252,132,0!8^516,84,2!11^420,564,372,36!0^396,252!0^372,204!0^396,156!0^372,108!0^396,60!0^732,540!12^258,72!12^258,168!12^258,264!12^510,216!12^510,120!12^504,132!12^504,228!12^264,276!12^264,180!12^264,84#568:17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|115462417|107374182|35792486|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|107880994|89478610|89478485|17895765|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|36576529|35791394|139810|89478493|73811556|107374182|107374182|35791398|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|237117986|17895890|17895697|107880465|89409126|89478485|18175317|17895697|115483137|107374182|107374182|107374182|35791398|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|17895426|17895697|89478609|89986389|89478485|89478485|22369621|17895697|107374289|88360038|105207109|88360006|18175045|89478609|22369621|139537|35791392|35791394|290|35651584|546|65536|16777216|17895697|1#

Possibility of being pulled off in real-time: Extremely Unlikely.

Yeah me and Raif were trying to discuss a way to fall through the thwumps. I thinking a CJ going up the left side of the triangles would be the way to do it, but I don't know if you can get in front of the drone coming out of the bottom enough to make that CJ.

I'm not quite sure what you meant by that. My demo was just proving that you can get those 4 pieces of gold and still beat that drone. The bit at the top was just incidental... If I were to MBD the map, I'd CJ up through the middle but as Raif pointed out - if you optimized it, you'd probably - somewhat ironically, have to wait for the drone when you fall back down.

[eru_bahagon]

70-2

It was during my ep run... but NReality didn't let me complete the ep. "Abnormal speed" shit, even if it wasn't lagging at all.
I'll use normal N again, because the same already happened to me yesterday, on the same ep.

PS : @TRO : what about the latest nhigh ? the config file is working for you or not ?

EDIT : normal N lags like shit. ska will keep his ep 70 0th^^

[golf]

eru, try using 6d4 instead of 6g2. I've had more problems with the newer version, and I do all my episode runs on 6d4 now because of that.

[EddyMataGallos]

Nice eru! That bug sucks I know :(
Btw awesome demo ska, clean as hell D: