Metanet 0ths Thread

[golf]

Cool story. Occupied your 46-0 with a route change I'd been sitting on since you beat my run ages ago.

I've never really liked that level, gold collection is somewhere in the top half on my "annoying level" rankings. That said, had to look at demo mode to find the route change because I was expecting it to be in the end instead of the beginning, lol. Also, that didn't last long, macro has already come through like a whirlwind and swept you under the rug again.

My 91-4 score has (nearly) always been 253.200.

I've been working on this one off and on for a couple weeks now, since it was my 2nd biggest level difference. Not trying for 0th, I don't have the balls for it, but just to increase my TLS. I'm not quite done, have one more trick I want to include in my run that I think can be done in a reasonable time now that I have a decent handle on the first half. This should be a pretty decent improvement, I think (had a death right before the exit that probably would have put me around the lat/x-y-z mark), and maybe macro/Eddy/whoever can work it into a new 0th run at some point. Plus, if I do say so myself, it will look pretty sweet too :)

Also, check out my TLS score graph: http://www.jamesinman.ca/n/TLS/
I put the TES line on the same chart, with 36000 seconds added so we can see how the two have come together as we have optimized episode scores.

In recent times, I think you mean "as [Eddy and yourself have optimized episode scores" Not going to be too much longer once Eddy gets back to playing hardcore before he has all 100 episode 0ths. Perhaps even with a perfect ep somewhere in there. We can all hope, right?

[EddyMataGallos]

Thanks for the research Hendor. That's kind of what I expected, that Lim and xela were the closest contenders at their peaks. I never suspected of trib4l, the gaps back then were just a whole different world. Also, that ska's assertion about the completists is so true. Anyway, xaelar did have (and still does) a score on 82-0, so maybe you were referring to other level?

Also, thanks for implementing my graph idea, I love how you can appreciate the episode optimization. The jump in the second half of 2007 is awesome, that was clearly when things started getting serious xD I bet it was mostly due to the Lim-xela episode battle that was going on back then.

Great job with 46-0 ska, and thanks for keeping track of the progression, also nice job macro for taking it :D The movement is currently rocketing to success!

@golf: I have to get back to serious ep highscoring! One more week like this and I'm done xD: http://i.imgur.com/Ft04gVv.png
Just kidding, never gonna do that again, I ended up burned. But I'll get back to it, I just want to reach that. Regarding the perfect ep, well that's a different story :P I really hope I can manage it, but it gets harder and harder as level 0ths are improved.

[alsojp27ace]

Players like Trib4l weren't really completists like they are today with players like Hendor, golf, Eru, Eddy and macro. If they found a level particularly tedious or unenjoyable, they just wouldn't attempt to highscore it, much less try to challenge the 0th.

Yeah I'm a lot like that too, there are lots of levels that I doubt I'll ever bother highscoring.

Cool story. Occupied your 46-0 with a route change I'd been sitting on since you beat my run ages ago.

Very nice! I agree with golf that the gold on that level is very annoying to get.

I've taken 83-4 with pretty much a complete route change, it isn't really a faster route but I found it to be a lot easier.
It would probably be faster to use Eddy's old route, but incorporate my gold collection for the bottom right corner.

[TheRealOne]

My 91-4 score has (nearly) always been 253.200.

Cool story. Occupied your 46-0 with a route change I'd been sitting on since you beat my run ages ago.

Edit: For record keeping purposes, my progression went 177.525, 177.550, 177.700 and 177.800.

Nice little find right there. I love the subtle changes that go for huge gains.

And with regards to the the TLS vs Community TLS you are right. I didn't take in to consideration that the old grandmasters left out disliked levels. Just one level left with a player first completion or a mediocre run is too much to even come close to Eddy and Macro. I guess that is why they are like 500 seconds ahead of everyone else.

Also, check out my TLS score graph: http://www.jamesinman.ca/n/TLS/
I put the TES line on the same chart, with 36000 seconds added so we can see how the two have come together as we have optimized episode scores.

This is great. I am glad to see that TES is continually closing the gap. It always feels like Episode don't get nearly enough love.

I've taken 83-4 with pretty much a complete route change, it isn't really a faster route but I found it to be a lot easier.
It would probably be faster to use Eddy's old route, but incorporate my gold collection for the bottom right corner.

That route does look like it has a lot more "flow" to it. Your run is very solid as well. Though, to me, this map will never be complete until a route is developed that skips at least the top 2 if not the top 3 or 4 doors.

[golf]

And with this, I just passed 72.1k secs of TLS :D As promised to golf, this was mandatory. I'm guessing this will probably be my last TLS milestone, although who knows...

Considering that the community is just barely past 72150, I think its a pretty good bet that its your last milestone. Maybe you can shoot for an "honorable mention" milestone of 30 seconds difference between yours and the community's TLS. Another optional milestone is 72150 :P

[ska]

My 91-4 score has (nearly) always been 253.200.

I don't blame you, that's gotta be my least favorite level; so much randomness. What did you have against 82-0 though?

Cool story. Occupied your 46-0 with a route change I'd been sitting on since you beat my run ages ago.

Nice run! Left side so smooth and pretty now.


Also, check out my TLS score graph: http://www.jamesinman.ca/n/TLS/
I put the TES line on the same chart, with 36000 seconds added so we can see how the two have come together as we have optimized episode scores.

You read my mind with the TLS/TES chart! Very cool! It's interesting too see that the growth isn't as logarithmic as I was expecting, but rather, the rate dropped off by about 50% in late 2007; around the time when Mr_Lim went into retirement. It just goes to show what a profound effect Mr_Lim had on highscoring as a whole.

Also, I took back 46-0.

[aids]

I've taken 83-4 with pretty much a complete route change, it isn't really a faster route but I found it to be a lot easier.
It would probably be faster to use Eddy's old route, but incorporate my gold collection for the bottom right corner.

That route does look like it has a lot more "flow" to it. Your run is very solid as well. Though, to me, this map will never be complete until a route is developed that skips at least the top 2 if not the top 3 or 4 doors.

Yeah guys. Stop lounging around and get to work already.

[ska]

I've taken 83-4 with pretty much a complete route change, it isn't really a faster route but I found it to be a lot easier.
It would probably be faster to use Eddy's old route, but incorporate my gold collection for the bottom right corner.

That route does look like it has a lot more "flow" to it. Your run is very solid as well. Though, to me, this map will never be complete until a route is developed that skips at least the top 2 if not the top 3 or 4 doors.

Yeah guys. Stop lounging around and get to work already.

I know that you're joking, but for someone to pull that off in a clean run would be like asking a long-distance cyclist after winning a race to sprint another 1500 metres on foot...

[aids]

Geez, tough crowd. Anyway, what is the deal with airline food?

[ska]

Geez, tough crowd. Anyway, what is the deal with airline food?

I don't know, Jerry... what is the deal with airline food?

[EddyMataGallos]

89-0 to my bag. Double-shifting is very underrated...

[TheRealOne]

89-0 to my bag. Double-shifting is very underrated...

Damn so close to taking down crappi. And of course you took another Kool 0th by a single frame =P Great run.

[EddyMataGallos]

Thanks man, I think I even had him in a couple runs, but the ending is so random to me. Also, most of the time I die smashed in the ceiling.

Anyways, took 32-1 :D I wish it had been a mere frame faster though... I also used the double-shifting technique here, although most of the chimneys aren't good enough to reflect it.

[golf]

Very nice runs Eddy. You trying to clear the rankings of cheated 0ths again? Looks like you've got a good start towards it at least :)

[EddyMataGallos]

Thanks, I was actually testing this ability in chimney levels, which indeed turned out to be the ones with cheated 0ths left. I think both can be taken down, but 89-0 is much harder. In 32-1, you can see I even had a sloppy ending, lost some time there (waited too much). But its too random to me, I've only managed it once again on a slower run.

Tied 2-2, lost the 0th in the final slide.

EDIT: Took it by 2 frames, and still lost some time on the final slide to Kool. Sorry bro, didn't mean to take 3 0ths of yours on a row :P

So, I'm not sure what you guys think, I guess I can record myself if you have any suspicion regarding the chimney, although 121027 should be enough proof. Just tell me. I just noticed this since my old keyboard couldn't withstand double shifting. Modern keyboards should all withstand it though, those which keys are softer. Laptops too, probably.

[ska]

Thanks, I was actually testing this ability in chimney levels, which indeed turned out to be the ones with cheated 0ths left. I think both can be taken down, but 89-0 is much harder. In 32-1, you can see I even had a sloppy ending, lost some time there (waited too much). But its too random to me, I've only managed it once again on a slower run.

Tied 2-2, lost the 0th in the final slide.

EDIT: Took it by 2 frames, and still lost some time on the final slide to Kool. Sorry bro, didn't mean to take 3 0ths of yours on a row :P

So, I'm not sure what you guys think, I guess I can record myself if you have any suspicion regarding the chimney, although 121027 should be enough proof. Just tell me. I just noticed this since my old keyboard couldn't withstand double shifting. Modern keyboards should all withstand it though, those which keys are softer. Laptops too, probably.

I have no doubts about it; I know first hand that it's possible to legitimately get chimneys like that. I also know what you mean about certain keyboards being better to use than others. Here's an example of what I mean:
Needless to say, on this old laptop, I use 'x' to jump...

[golf]

Needless to say, on this old laptop, I use 'x' to jump...

Wait a second, somebody else uses the magical x jump? No wonder you were able to beat me in the column race!

Back on topic, crazy run on 2-2 you put up Eddy.

[ska]

Needless to say, on this old laptop, I use 'x' to jump...

Wait a second, somebody else uses the magical x jump? No wonder you were able to beat me in the column race!

Yeah—I tried the spacebar for a long time on an old laptop, but it became annoying for maps that required you to jump on the first frame. (Can't think of any off the top of my head, but it was evidently enough of an issue to change, plus I was messing up my spacebar key.) I've shown this picture ages ago on these forums, but here it is again in a crappy, out-of-focus resolution. (3rd to last laptop I've owned).

My newest laptop is in a state of disrepair and has been sent back to the manufacturers, but fortunately it's under warranty. At any rate, I've stuck with "x" for a while now, with "c" as my suicide key (because I like to live dangerously.) ;)

[macrohenry]

So, I'm not sure what you guys think, I guess I can record myself if you have any suspicion regarding the chimney, although 121027 should be enough proof. Just tell me. I just noticed this since my old keyboard couldn't withstand double shifting. Modern keyboards should all withstand it though, those which keys are softer. Laptops too, probably.

Please do that! I'd like to see what double-shifting looks like, maybe it helps me to improve my own chimneying a bit.
However, crazy runs once again. With super-fast chimneying you're unstoppable now. ó.ò

[ska]

So, I'm not sure what you guys think, I guess I can record myself if you have any suspicion regarding the chimney, although 121027 should be enough proof. Just tell me. I just noticed this since my old keyboard couldn't withstand double shifting. Modern keyboards should all withstand it though, those which keys are softer. Laptops too, probably.

Please do that! I'd like to see what double-shifting looks like, maybe it helps me to improve my own chimneying a bit.
However, crazy runs once again. With super-fast chimneying you're unstoppable now. ó.ò

I would compare double shifting to drag racing. Sure, you can build up a lot of speed very quickly, but your control is severely compromised, at least in my case. I suppose your could use boss mode or something between bursts, but I'm not sure how the community at large would feel about such tactics.

[EddyMataGallos]

Thanks, guys.

Please do that! I'd like to see what double-shifting looks like, maybe it helps me to improve my own chimneying a bit.
However, crazy runs once again. With super-fast chimneying you're unstoppable now. ó.ò

Done! Here you have the video of chimneying using double-shifting, and comparing it to single-shifting. Also, I give a couple hints at the end on how to perform this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVJ1C8_ki7I

The optimal chimney is the one that appears at 1:10, the one where I get excited xD, that's what I aimed for when taking the 0th, although this one is even faster I think. I saved it so you can actually appreciate it on N rather than on video, its over here: http://pastebin.com/WAKq1wcC
I think I pronounced "relatively" badly :P

I would compare double shifting to drag racing. Sure, you can build up a lot of speed very quickly, but your control is severely compromised, at least in my case. I suppose your could use boss mode or something between bursts, but I'm not sure how the community at large would feel about such tactics.

Yeah absolutely, the reason I've only done it in these levels so far is that there's a long chimney. Since I have to use both hands for the shift keys, I can't control the directional arrows, so it doesn't work as well for small chimneys (i.e. no way I can implement it in 90-3, probably).

Also, regarding the keyboards, pshh, that's nothing. These have been my past 3 keyboards: http://i.imgur.com/iQAjZc9.jpg Now you can also understand why double-shifting didn't work in those relics :P

EDIT: On different news, took 2-0 with an innov. It has more potential I think, maybe 10 frames?

EDIT: Late retook of 83-4 with jp's new route and some cleaning.
@TRO: I don't think there's much missing here by not skipping a few doors, unlike in sr, here we pretty much have to go through everywhere, I don't think we lose much time by taking the switches. However, feel free to prove me wrong with a new route, that's not my strong point :P

EDIT: And for the Ocuppy xela movement, took 35-2 and 43-3.

[ska]

Also, regarding the keyboards, pshh, that's nothing. These have been my past 3 keyboards: http://i.imgur.com/iQAjZc9.jpg Now you can also understand why double-shifting didn't work in those relics :P

Dude. Seriously, what the fuck? You decimated those keyboards! I mean, that first photo looks like you poured hot wax on it! I can just imagine you with a wardrobe filled to the brim with archaic keyboards...

Done! Here you have the video of chimneying using double-shifting, and comparing it to single-shifting. Also, I give a couple hints at the end on how to perform this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVJ1C8_ki7I

It's interesting that you mention the randomness factor. Obviously, if you strike the left shift key on the frame previous to the right shift key (or vice versa) the game will treat it as JJ, rather than JNJ. I would have liked to see a picture-in-picture featuring your hands pressing the keys, only out of curiosity regarding your technique.

I also agree with 2-0; it looks like there are a few places to improve when ghosting against kool's run. 35-2 seems like you could edge out a few more frames (demo mode between xela is telling for this map)

Also, fyi, it's pronounced "rell-uh-tiv-lee" (since you asked!). Same thing for relative. (rell-uh-tiv), but everything else sounded fine to me! I hereby approve you for podcast participation!

[MiBeM]

I find double-shifting difficult because pressing one shift key while the other is still held doesn't work. I'm sure with some practice it becomes easier but instead I chose to alternate two fingers on one shift key (I seem to recall this being known as 'trilling'). I'm right handed so it took some time to learn to do it with my left hand, and I still use my right hand in long chimneys, but it's really useful because you can maintain control, if necessary, while chimneying.

the game will treat it as JJ, rather than JNJ.

What do these acronyms stand for? I've seen them used before in the context of chimneying but I'm took lazy to look it up. :P

[ska]

I find double-shifting difficult because pressing one shift key while the other is still held doesn't work. I'm sure with some practice it becomes easier but instead I chose to alternate two fingers on one shift key (I seem to recall this being known as 'trilling'). I'm right handed so it took some time to learn to do it with my left hand, and I still use my right hand in long chimneys, but it's really useful because you can maintain control, if necessary, while chimneying.

the game will treat it as JJ, rather than JNJ.

What do these acronyms stand for? I've seen them used before in the context of chimneying but I'm took lazy to look it up. :P

they're shorthand codes for key presses on each frame, as used in NHigh demo analysis. J = jump, N = nothing (written as 'nothing' in-app), R = right, RJ = right & jump, LJ = left & jump, etc.

So, if you have:

N - 34
R - 18
RJ - 3
J - 3
N - 1
J - 1
N - 1
J - 1
N - 2
J - 1
N - 1

It would be nothing for 34 frames, then right for 18 frames, right & jump for 3 frames, then what is most likely a chimney-jumping sequence.

P.S. Trilling on laptop keyboards — at least in my experience — is ineffective, even on maps like 121027. The key can't retract properly for the next key strike, and that's including the spacebar. Perhaps a mechanical keyboard or desktop keyboard might be better suited.

[EddyMataGallos]

It's interesting that you mention the randomness factor. Obviously, if you strike the left shift key on the frame previous to the right shift key (or vice versa) the game will treat it as JJ, rather than JNJ. I would have liked to see a picture-in-picture featuring your hands pressing the keys, only out of curiosity regarding your technique.

Yeah exactly, that can happen quite often, and also the fact that once one shift is pressed, it won't detect the other shift, as Mibem mentions. That's why another hint which I forgot to mention is to try to release the keys asap, press subtly, I know, it sounds obvious, but it helps.

Also, fyi, it's pronounced "rell-uh-tiv-lee" (since you asked!). Same thing for relative. (rell-uh-tiv), but everything else sounded fine to me! I hereby approve you for podcast participation!

Ahh that's what I thought, I had a little lapsus xD And thanks :P

Also, I might give a shot to one those double-screen recordings (keyboard + screen) for the chimney, never done them, so even just for the sake of fun it might be interesting.

I find double-shifting difficult because pressing one shift key while the other is still held doesn't work. I'm sure with some practice it becomes easier but instead I chose to alternate two fingers on one shift key (I seem to recall this being known as 'trilling'). I'm right handed so it took some time to learn to do it with my left hand, and I still use my right hand in long chimneys, but it's really useful because you can maintain control, if necessary, while chimneying.

Uh, that doesn't work well for me either, the keys don't retract quickly enough. I agree with the issue you mentioned, that's partly why double-shifting doesn't always work, but its not that inconsistent. With some timing you get it more or less regularly.