Project: Metagame - Join and contribute!

[LittleViking]

Everyone seems to like the planetoids idea. Now we just need to clear up the rift of whether this is a Scorched Earth game or a platformer; and if it's a platformer, will it have time travel. Here are my thoughts on each:

Planetoid Scorched Earth: It definitely feels like the simplest of the choices, which in some ways is good and in some ways is bad. Good because it should be relatively quick to see progress and get the game finished. Getting a game finished is a *very* good thing. Simplicity might turn out badly, though, if people don't get engaged by the game. If you can turn the game on, play ten or fifteen matches, and be done with it, then we as developers haven't done our job. We would need something unique to keep players coming back.

Planetoid platformer: I find this one very interesting. I've never seen a game with this concept. I imagine players moving through a level made up of circles, and we could introduce puzzle aspects for the player getting from one circle to the next. The drawback is that this is a more complicated game than the Scorched Earth one. We would have to make various enemies and puzzles in this, different levels, maybe even plot aspects. It would be more difficult and would take longer to finish.

Planetoid platformer with time travel: If we have the planet thing, I don't know if we need time. Time travel is interesting, but it mostly means copying the same level three times (past, present, future) and having the changes from past levels affect future levels. Unless the time changes are major (like Within a Deep Forest's past), then I don't see a point. And if the changes are major, why not make new levels instead? Feel free to argue the point, but I'm not into time travel platformers.

Planetoid Scorched Earth with time travel: I have no idea what this would mean, but it sounds chaotic and fast-paced. I'm picturing a game where you fire a shot into another planet, wait until the other player jumps to that planet later on, then reverse your own timeline to the moment you shot there so the guy takes damage. Sounds cool, maybe, but also very complicated. I wouldn't recommend it due to difficulty in coding.

[Geti]

i propose this.

planetoid scorched earth RTS:
the player is a floating entity with low firepower, that can "plant" itself into the ground. this allows access to some simple facilities to grow, be it cannons or factories for making squadrons of drones or whatever.
as the player grows, more facilities can be made, the actual player unit will get more firepower, give more power (more on that later) and be able to fly more, eventually gaining the ability to leave the current planets gravity and plant itself on another planet.
back to the facilities.
each of these facilities "drains" on the player, who acts as a decent power factory (decent, albeit not infinite). power factories can be made, or a generator can be put into the core of a planet, which will slowly drain the planets core temperature to make power.
when the drain of facilities is more than the available power, all facilities attached to the respective node (where you decide to plant yourself becomes this node) operate at 50% power, and no more offensive facilities can be grown.
the environment of the planet should also matter. planets have trees all over that convert CO2 to O2, and house animals (some simple AI neutrals) and generally add ambiance (think the butterflies and awesome backdrops in knytt, and the effect they have). they have water, which houses fishies and cycles with the rain, and allows life, and a safe landing point for crashing kinetic craft i suppose :P. and they have a cycling, hot core that allows all the life to live, providing heat and therefore energy for a lot of things.
as the player can plant themself wherever they wish, they could have many fronts on any one planet. however, combustion based power solutions will polute the air and eventually make the planet uninhabitable if overused, nuclear solutions weaken anything organic in the area, including your own ground units, and make your existence more traceable with all that gamma. core based power solutions will eventually kill the planet, requiring the player to be of a high enough level to pump energy back into the planet, reviving the dead rock before all the life dies out.
the planets all act under gravity, and slowly rotate. interplanetary collisions are catastrophic, unless in some cases where a relatively low speed collision and high core temperatures allow the flowing magma to reset into a merged planet, or when planets just glance off each other.

an interesting game dynamic would be killing the planet someone was on (rather than them) by over-draining the core (there would be facilities for this), bombing the surface (think having a few moons covered in weapons all firing off at another planet, besides epic, devastating), implanting a bomb, etc.

needed for this to work
-per unit-group control, and an intuitive one at that :P
-water physics (good ones, magma and water)
-decent collision physics
-objects made of components, for by part damage (trees would only be a few components, large cannons would be about 5 that broke into smaller parts when destroyed)
-particle system outlined in my other post
-temperature based dynamics, for things being converted to molten
-materials system (for bounce, friction, hardness, melting point, etc)
-this without lag.

i would love this idea. ill mock up some sprites and examples, i need to find time..
feel free to expand on certain aspects, but i think this would be awesome. and it could go from short matches with 2 players and 4 or so planetoids to long matches with 4 plus players and 15 or more planets.. lag in the last case though. id like this to scale a lot though, like even a match on one planet would be interesting.

ill get my concepts from paper to compy soon. i might just scan it for now.

oh, and a quote from a friend

so its like a mix of worms, age of empires, and snooker? mean as.

[LittleViking]

I think you're going waaay overboard on making things complicated. Things like water physics, planet collisions, planet life, rain cycles (come on, seriously?) are probably beyond the scope of what our programmers will want to/be able to do. I like the idea of growing an empire of planetary cannons, but some of these details are too much.

i propose this.

planetoid scorched earth RTS:
the player is a floating entity with low firepower, that can "plant" itself into the ground. this allows access to some simple facilities to grow, be it cannons or factories for making squadrons of drones or whatever.
as the player grows, more facilities can be made, the actual player unit will get more firepower, give more power (more on that later) and be able to fly more, eventually gaining the ability to leave the current planets gravity and plant itself on another planet.
back to the facilities.
each of these facilities "drains" on the player, who acts as a decent power factory (decent, albeit not infinite). power factories can be made, or a generator can be put into the core of a planet, which will slowly drain the planets core temperature to make power.
when the drain of facilities is more than the available power, all facilities attached to the respective node (where you decide to plant yourself becomes this node) operate at 50% power, and no more offensive facilities can be grown.
the environment of the planet should also matter. planets have trees all over that convert CO2 to O2, and house animals (some simple AI neutrals) and generally add ambiance (think the butterflies and awesome backdrops in knytt, and the effect they have). they have water, which houses fishies and cycles with the rain, and allows life, and a safe landing point for crashing kinetic craft i suppose :P. and they have a cycling, hot core that allows all the life to live, providing heat and therefore energy for a lot of things.
as the player can plant themself wherever they wish, they could have many fronts on any one planet. however, combustion based power solutions will polute the air and eventually make the planet uninhabitable if overused, nuclear solutions weaken anything organic in the area, including your own ground units, and make your existence more traceable with all that gamma. core based power solutions will eventually kill the planet, requiring the player to be of a high enough level to pump energy back into the planet, reviving the dead rock before all the life dies out.
the planets all act under gravity, and slowly rotate. interplanetary collisions are catastrophic, unless in some cases where a relatively low speed collision and high core temperatures allow the flowing magma to reset into a merged planet, or when planets just glance off each other.

an interesting game dynamic would be killing the planet someone was on (rather than them) by over-draining the core (there would be facilities for this), bombing the surface (think having a few moons covered in weapons all firing off at another planet, besides epic, devastating), implanting a bomb, etc.

needed for this to work
-per unit-group control, and an intuitive one at that :P
-water physics (good ones, magma and water)
-decent collision physics
-objects made of components, for by part damage (trees would only be a few components, large cannons would be about 5 that broke into smaller parts when destroyed)
-particle system outlined in my other post
-temperature based dynamics, for things being converted to molten
-materials system (for bounce, friction, hardness, melting point, etc)
-this without lag.

[Geti]

well, what happens when planets collide then?
i can understand about the rain cycles etc (though having planets "die" would be good, and really, how hard is !core_temp=x, and a colour on a gradient in accordance with x? thats just variable stuff, the same as HP, but for a planet.) but softbody physics (that would be used for water and magma) makes things very interesting. maybe, if we dont have water, at least a planetary destruction (from collision or otherwise) should make chunks of a planet and firey particles that end up as smaller chunks of rock.
i agree that im overcomplicating it, but not to such a degree. below commented where applicable.

planetoid scorched earth RTS:
the player is a floating entity with low firepower, that can "plant" itself into the ground. this allows access to some simple facilities to grow, be it cannons or factories for making squadrons of drones [squad based stuff is only a small addon to movement, it just involves killing one subunit of the squad at a cirtain HP level, having the units scuttle around a main point with random direction or a set formation, and making their shots come from separate places, if things can move, this would be an addition that would make a lot of fun for not too much code] or whatever.
as the player grows, more facilities can be made, the actual player unit will get more firepower, give more power (more on that later) and be able to fly more, eventually gaining the ability to leave the current planets gravity and plant itself on another planet.
back to the facilities.
each of these facilities "drains" on the player, who acts as a decent power factory (decent, albeit not infinite). power factories can be made, or a generator can be put into the core of a planet, which will slowly drain the planets core temperature to make power.
when the drain of facilities is more than the available power, all facilities attached to the respective node (where you decide to plant yourself becomes this node) operate at 50% power, and no more offensive facilities can be grown.
the environment of the planet should also matter. planets have trees all over thatconvert CO2 to O2, and house animals (some simple AI neutrals [simpler AI than an enemy computer player, so just the same code with some parts turned off]) and generally add ambiance (think the butterflies and awesome backdrops in knytt, and the effect they have).they have water, which houses fishies and cycles with the rain, and allows life, and a safe landing point for crashing kinetic craft i suppose :P. and they have a cycling, hot core that allows all the life to live, providing heat and therefore energy for a lot of things.
as the player can plant themself wherever they wish, they could have many fronts on any one planet. however, combustion based power solutions will polute the air and eventually make the planet uninhabitable if overused, nuclear solutions weaken anything organic in the area, including your own ground units, and make your existence more traceable with all that gamma. core based power solutions will eventually kill the planet, requiring the player to be of a high enough level to pump energy back into the planet, reviving the dead rock before all the life dies out.[see above for why this is possible. i love this as a game dynamic, so im going to argue for it.]
the planets all act under gravity, and slowly rotate. interplanetary collisions are catastrophic, unless in some cases where a relatively low speed collision and high core temperatures allow the flowing magma to reset into a merged planet, or when planets just glance off each other.

an interesting game dynamic would be killing the planet someone was on (rather than them) by over-draining the core (there would be facilities for this) [this is what makes it such an interesting dynamic, that and core based power] , bombing the surface (think having a few moons covered in weapons all firing off at another planet, besides epic, devastating), implanting a bomb, etc.

needed for this to work
-group control, esentially a mod of singular unit control.
-intuitive interface [this should be a prerequisite anyway]
-water physics (good ones, magma and water) i can accept this
-decent collision physics
-objects made of components, for by part damage [- let me explain this a bit further. objects should not just lose HP from being hit anywhere, think fraxy. each component, when killed, damages the component it is attached to, and all the other components attacked to it die. this is sort of what i mean, but im suggesting it on a smaller scale. each cannon should be made of a few smaller parts, and when destroyed, it should break into parts ("gib") that will fall according to gravity. this means any large space ships that are destroyed will fall to the nearest planet, and the debris will damage whatever it hits. with decent collision physics, that we are going to need anyway, this is fine.
all that is needed for things to gib well is two additions to the particles system: particles afffected by gravity (a variable defined per particle that either includes or doesnt include it in the gravity calculations) and particles that dont explode, but remain as parts of the terrain (after resting there for a bit of course). this would allow explosions to be made up of energy and solid particles, which is undeniably desirable.
components is another story, but it would be nice.]
-particle system outlined in my other post
-temperature based dynamics, for things being converted to molten for planet cores, no melting though.
-materials system (for bounce, friction, hardness, melting point, etc)
-this without lag.

wow thats hard to read. sorry.

[Atilla]

I'm up for music and random consultation on just about everything.

Planetoid platformer: I find this one very interesting. I've never seen a game with this concept. I imagine players moving through a level made up of circles, and we could introduce puzzle aspects for the player getting from one circle to the next.

Er, Mario Galaxy? Though it didn't have many puzzle elements.



Anyway, I agree with LV: Geti's suggestion is far too complicated. Especially considering that this is the first game we plan to make. I think it'd be better to do something relatively simple to start with.


I suggest a puzzle-platformer, without time travel.

Story: Our intrepid space explorers have crash landed in a group of unexplored planetoids. They must make their way from planetoid to planetoid until they reach civilization/find the parts to repair their ship/find a ship they can steal from the hostile alien military base/whatever.

Gameplay: You'd have three characters with different abilities, and have to switch between them to solve puzzles and avoid enemies/obstacles to get all members of your team to the goal. It could either be a free-exploration affair (Super Metroid Galaxy?), or a more traditional level-based format. Those who have played The Lost Vikings will be familiar with this style of play. Multiplayer would be possible, with each player controlling a different character; we could even make special levels which require simultaneous action to proceed.

Characters:

The scout, who would be able to crawl to bypass some obstacles, and be equipped with a limited-flight jetpack which would make it easier for him to get around.

The soldier, who would have a rifle and timed grenades. The rifle would fire in a perfectly straight line; the grenades would be effected by gravity (which, given the multiple planetoids, could result in some really wacky throws). They could be used to destroy enemies, of course, but also to activate distant switches or destroy some surfaces.

The engineer, who would be able to create a set number of temporary blocks at one time. The blocks could be picked up and thrown around (by the engineer only), much like the mushroom blocks in Mario 2. They could be used as platforms or barricades. Or, of course, lobbed onto some enemies as a weapon.

(I also suggest that all characters be able to jump, though not a huge height or distance. Gaining extra abilities as you progress, in traditional Metroid style, is also a possibility.)


Anyway, this blends your traditional puzzle-platformer with some physics, which should be achievable while giving everyone something to do. Thoughts?

[Condog]

I'm up for music and random consultation on just about everything.

Planetoid platformer: I find this one very interesting. I've never seen a game with this concept. I imagine players moving through a level made up of circles, and we could introduce puzzle aspects for the player getting from one circle to the next.

Er, Mario Galaxy? Though it didn't have many puzzle elements.



Anyway, I agree with LV: Geti's suggestion is far too complicated. Especially considering that this is the first game we plan to make. I think it'd be better to do something relatively simple to start with.


I suggest a puzzle-platformer, without time travel.

Story: Our intrepid space explorers have crash landed in a group of unexplored planetoids. They must make their way from planetoid to planetoid until they reach civilization/find the parts to repair their ship/find a ship they can steal from the hostile alien military base/whatever.

Gameplay: You'd have three characters with different abilities, and have to switch between them to solve puzzles and avoid enemies/obstacles to get all members of your team to the goal. It could either be a free-exploration affair (Super Metroid Galaxy?), or a more traditional level-based format. Those who have played The Lost Vikings will be familiar with this style of play. Multiplayer would be possible, with each player controlling a different character; we could even make special levels which require simultaneous action to proceed.

Characters:

The scout, who would be able to crawl to bypass some obstacles, and be equipped with a limited-flight jetpack which would make it easier for him to get around.

The soldier, who would have a rifle and timed grenades. The rifle would fire in a perfectly straight line; the grenades would be effected by gravity (which, given the multiple planetoids, could result in some really wacky throws). They could be used to destroy enemies, of course, but also to activate distant switches or destroy some surfaces.

The engineer, who would be able to create a set number of temporary blocks at one time. The blocks could be picked up and thrown around (by the engineer only), much like the mushroom blocks in Mario 2. They could be used as platforms or barricades. Or, of course, lobbed onto some enemies as a weapon.

(I also suggest that all characters be able to jump, though not a huge height or distance. Gaining extra abilities as you progress, in traditional Metroid style, is also a possibility.)


Anyway, this blends your traditional puzzle-platformer with some physics, which should be achievable while giving everyone something to do. Thoughts?

So it would be like Super Mario Galaxy plus Super Paper Mario. I like that idea, it should be relatively easy to in 2D.

I also like the idea of the Worms-like game based on the planetoids. That would be fun to do as well.

I signing up as an artist. I'll do level art, background art, character/enemy design, anything really.

[Geti]

concept art for the planetoid rts idea.

w/o any interface stuff

i like this style. be better in vector and without black outlines, just darkened stuff and shading and the kind of abstract meaningless detail in the texture that fraxy has. i like it though. simple.

with interface stuff, just conceptual obv.

just how some interface stuff could look, when zoomed in close (like it is now)
ill do something shooting soon :)

[origami_alligator]

So is it officially too late to post my idea, as it seems we're rolling with the planets idea?

[squibbles]

I'm up for music and random consultation on just about everything.

Planetoid platformer: I find this one very interesting. I've never seen a game with this concept. I imagine players moving through a level made up of circles, and we could introduce puzzle aspects for the player getting from one circle to the next.

Er, Mario Galaxy? Though it didn't have many puzzle elements.



Anyway, I agree with LV: Geti's suggestion is far too complicated. Especially considering that this is the first game we plan to make. I think it'd be better to do something relatively simple to start with.


I suggest a puzzle-platformer, without time travel.

Story: Our intrepid space explorers have crash landed in a group of unexplored planetoids. They must make their way from planetoid to planetoid until they reach civilization/find the parts to repair their ship/find a ship they can steal from the hostile alien military base/whatever.

Gameplay: You'd have three characters with different abilities, and have to switch between them to solve puzzles and avoid enemies/obstacles to get all members of your team to the goal. It could either be a free-exploration affair (Super Metroid Galaxy?), or a more traditional level-based format. Those who have played The Lost Vikings will be familiar with this style of play. Multiplayer would be possible, with each player controlling a different character; we could even make special levels which require simultaneous action to proceed.

Characters:

The scout, who would be able to crawl to bypass some obstacles, and be equipped with a limited-flight jetpack which would make it easier for him to get around.

The soldier, who would have a rifle and timed grenades. The rifle would fire in a perfectly straight line; the grenades would be effected by gravity (which, given the multiple planetoids, could result in some really wacky throws). They could be used to destroy enemies, of course, but also to activate distant switches or destroy some surfaces.

The engineer, who would be able to create a set number of temporary blocks at one time. The blocks could be picked up and thrown around (by the engineer only), much like the mushroom blocks in Mario 2. They could be used as platforms or barricades. Or, of course, lobbed onto some enemies as a weapon.

(I also suggest that all characters be able to jump, though not a huge height or distance. Gaining extra abilities as you progress, in traditional Metroid style, is also a possibility.)


Anyway, this blends your traditional puzzle-platformer with some physics, which should be achievable while giving everyone something to do. Thoughts?

I like it...lets do that.

So is it officially too late to post my idea, as it seems we're rolling with the planets idea?

Nah, post it anyway...It's not that late. :D

[Thomas]

That's some really sexy concept art, Geti.

[Geti]

That's some really sexy concept art, Geti.

glad you like it, ill get more coming, hopefully with some battle going on for yay effects :D

im really liking the planetoid rts feel, i can just see it working.. what's everyone else going with?
we should hear southpaw's idea and then set up a poll i think. though everyone does seem to like the stuff to do with planetoids.

it would be great if those who had come up with the ideas would draw up some concepts for what they should look like, as others may get a wrong impression from text. and most of the people with ideas have signed up as artists anyway, haven't they?

i also like the sound of condog's idea, its simple but could be pulled off nicely. i think the engineer should also be able to plant explosives or sabotage stuff, though i think i get that from command and conquer ^^"
what if we did condog's idea essentially but also had items that could be passed between the players (like, physically thrown around) that allowed some of the less agile characters to get around more? like grappling hooks and Sticky-Climb(C) gloves etc.

i still like the rts idea though, but thats probably cause its mine. XD

[Topo]

This is a really cool sounding project!
I'm not so hot on the rts idea though. Most freeware rts games I've seen just lack the detail which makes commercial rts fun long after you've played it through once. Maybe there's room there for improvement. You could do something with rts elements combined with something else...I don't really know what though.

Another idea which would maybe fit under planet platformer would be something like hammerfall, a pretty unique game where you swing a big hammer around, but in space, and with simpler controls.

[Geti]

the "rts" would be like a cross between rts and scorched earth gameplay. i agree with what you say about the lack of detail though. think of it as fraxy where you can build on your own ship, instead of bosses.

also on a hammerfall-esque game.. wouldnt that kinda be copying the hammerfall devs? also in all of these, if we have planetary collisions, a simmilar effect could be achieved by pushing one planet into another.
i have to do hw, so you probably wont get the next concept for a while. and it definitely wont have an interface concept XD

edit: ill need someone to cover me for december, and maybe a little through exams depending when meetings are, but if its open id be honoured to be leader/co-leader of art.

[mattk210]

Whoops, I'm late to the party.

I'm in my final year at school so I won't be able to participate really actively, but if it's open source, doesn't that imply anyone can hop in at any time to fix a problem or contribute some images or whatever? That's what I'd like to do.

I can code, particularly physics (and I'll be improving in this area since I just started studying extension 2 Math), and particularly in flash (but i can easily learn anything else). I'm not as good as the really good guys here, like Raigan, but I can handle collision and forces pretty well. I can work with vector images (i mean real scalable vector, not the stuff you make in PS that looks like vector, which would be nice if we were working in flash), I can work ok with raster images, and I'm pretty interested in game design theory. How do I start?

As for what sort of game we want to make:
* we're N players, we'd probably all be interested in some sort of 2D platformer with physics. An rts/rpg/racer whatever may not appeal to us all but we KNOW we all like platformers.
* I've learnt from experience that finishing any game is extremely hard. I think the best approach is to create a basic engine (like N), with a simple scoring system, and if we want to expand this into a metroidvania style universe, do that later (think expanding space invaders into radiant silvergun, SI is extremely simple but still fun to play, and once you add more enemies, weapons, scripted levels, it becomes a fuller game, if you can be bothered and are able).
* loving the planet platformer idea. and having (some of) the circles that you move on react to gravity themselves could lead to some really interesting dynamic, orbiting puzzles. Atilla's ideas are good. Metroidvania style item upgrades are also a good idea, and if you're an explorer looking for parts, it could be those parts that give you your upgrades.

[Condog]

* loving the planet platformer idea. and having (some of) the circles that you move on react to gravity themselves could lead to some really interesting dynamic, orbiting puzzles. Atilla's ideas are good. Metroidvania style item upgrades are also a good idea, and if you're an explorer looking for parts, it could be those parts that give you your upgrades.

Over the next week i'll get some concept sketches done for the 2D planetoid platformer idea. This will include a few level designs, character designs, enemies, and objects.

[Geti]

cool, once we have some good ideas across the board we can decide through majority vote or some other means.

OMG
what if we had the enemies being all stationary cannons like the ones in my sketch, but the player played the game as a platformer? so all these large cannons are blasting at you, and the planets are falling apart and there is general havok, but you have to manoeuvre your team of dudes around and destroy them all. that would make level construction easy, and would be a compromise from the rts.
if the enemies constantly repaired themselves and expanded that would be even cooler, but that would involve coding the majority of the rts version and a platformer on top of it.
yes? no?
i still like the rts/scorched earth idea, like the one i drew, but ive been visualising it the most so yeah...

[mattk210]

I like the idea of an RTS, it's just that it's not as relevant to the community of a platformer. Also, it would require quite complex strategic AI which a platformer doesn't, and AI is pretty much the hardest part of programming. I don't think stationary cannons would work very well as the only enemy.

[Ad]

I'm really picturing the planetoid platformer vividly. I loved Super Mario Galaxy, and that had its share of 2D moments, so I feel that a more puzzle-based version of that would be a major hit. I love all of the ideas thrown down so far.

I was thinking about puzzles to get you to other planetoids, and was thinking largely about the gravitational system. Specifically-made tunnels could make you accelerate away from the planet at a high speed, bridging gaps between more distant planets.

Or I suppose there's always the straightforward rocket...

[Condog]

I'm really picturing the planetoid platformer vividly. I loved Super Mario Galaxy, and that had its share of 2D moments, so I feel that a more puzzle-based version of that would be a major hit. I love all of the ideas thrown down so far.

I was thinking about puzzles to get you to other planetoids, and was thinking largely about the gravitational system. Specifically-made tunnels could make you accelerate away from the planet at a high speed, bridging gaps between more distant planets.

Or I suppose there's always the straightforward rocket...

Well, if you fell towards a planet like that, you can't go further up than where you started from. But you could jump along the edge of the tunnel as you pull away from the core to gain momentum.

[squibbles]

*shh*

we don't need real physics. XD

[Ad]

*shh*

we don't need real physics. XD

Haha!

I may have just woken up then, so I'll pretend I meant that you'd be leaping to gain momentum, as Condog said. :P

[player_03]

I would suggest leaving the current suggestions for now and making a very short game just to get everyone used to the process. The game wouldn't have to take more than a month or so and wouldn't need to be finished, but it would give everybody an idea of what has to be done and what problems might come up in the future.

[Atilla]

We could make a Scorched Earth mini-game as a physics/engine test for the subsequent planetoid game.

[LittleViking]

We could make a Scorched Earth mini-game as a physics/engine test for the subsequent planetoid game.

Now there's an idea I can get behind.

[squibbles]

Unlockable minigame maybe?