Do we owe everything to our parents,

[Brocerius]

or do our parents owe everything to us?

I owe you nothing! If you carried that bag a million miles, you did what you're supposed to do! Because you brought me into this world. And from that day you owed me everything you could ever do for me like I will owe my son if I ever have another.

I liked this quote. I think it makes a good point. Discuss.

[a happy song]

I'd prefer not to look at it in terms of owing anything to anyone, real give gifts aren't given in hope for a return. It's more that you should be grateful for anything your parents have done that you consider above and beyond the duties of a basic parent.

[Brocerius]

But the quote would disagree with you - it says that there is nothing beyond the basic duties of a parent.

And you can be perfectly grateful of someone giving you something you are 'owed', I believe.

[Tunco]

Owed. "Owed". 'Owed'. Owed, is a very hard word for this.
We owe nothing to our parents.
We owe everything to our parents.

In fact, 2 of the opinions are true, it just depends on how you criticize "life".

[a happy song]

But the quote would disagree with you - it says that there is nothing beyond the basic duties of a parent.

And you can be perfectly grateful of someone giving you something you are 'owed', I believe.

The quote isn't gospel, fortunately. You can just tell when someone's done more for you than perhaps they should have by any definition of what was expected, and you should certainly be grateful for moments like those. If you have people around you who make those kinds of efforts, you're doing ok.

As for your second point, I didn't refute that.

[Tunco]

Though I should add, if you are having a really bad life, so bad that it's better that you die, rather than feeling pain, you are probably wanting your parents to be died, or not blaming them. At that point, you would think that you owe nothing to your parents, they owe you everything.

And same things goes for the opposite, it you are having a good life, you have money, things you want, you probably want to thank your parents because of your beatiful life. At that point, you would think that you owe everything from your parents.

As so as your life expectancy would increase.

Or decrease.

[Aethril]

Neither, it's a mutual relationship where both parents and offspring owe it to eachother to fufill their respective responsibilites (kids doing chores, parents providing food & shelter).

[blue_tetris]

Respect your parents.

I know if I pop a child out, I'm not buying anything for the child that I don't intend to use myself. He can have a portion of my salad, my chicken, and my potatoes for supper. He can use my TV. If he gets a video game console, it's my game console--he can play it a bit, I suppose. Anything that he earns for himself he can certainly use--and although I shared everything of mine with him, I don't even expect him to share the things he earns with me.

Think about that.

I don't intend to treat the child any better than any other mooch I've had in my apartment.



You kids should be thankful to have parents who intend to do more for you than you've properly warranted of them. Kids today have this sense of entitlement. "I exist, I'm in a Western society, so I deserve the Internet, endless text messages, and the latest games whenever they should come out."

So, yeah, you owe at least a little respect to your folks for fulfilling--at least in part--this overwhelming sense of entitlement you were born with. Also, happy fathers' day. Did you get your old man a tie? You well should.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

It's as George Carlin put it: Respect for parents is something to be earned.

In the most literal sense, having a child is very much like making an investment in something you believe in (and that you'd like to see flourish after you're no longer involved). You put down the initial capital in the form of creating the child and preparing for it, and then once the child is born it's still your responsibility to make sure that your investment grows healthily. If you're a bad or neglectful parent, but the child grows to become something great, it wouldn't be because of anything you did for it. But if you do put in a good parental effort, then you get the credit for producing an emotionally healthy child (or whatever makes a person "good").

But yeah, there's nothing unconditional about it. Plenty of children are neglected or abused; there are many cases in which a child owes his parents nothing. But in most cases, you probably owe your parents a lot. They've likely spent considerable resources on you, including their time and emotional effort.

One thing to note, though, is that many Eastern cultures see it opposite the way Brocerius quoted: the parents raise their kids so that those kids can take care of the parents when the parents are old. Western cultures put the burden of continuing to give on the parents and grandparents, but it's the other way around in places like China.

[Tunco]

Respect your parents.

The parents raise their kids so that those kids can take care of the parents when the parents are old.

You know that some don't. That's just out of respect.

I totally respect what blue_tetris said:
Respect, respect, respect your parents.

But if your child doesn't, what would you do as a parent? Yes, that was a personal question, to public.

[yungerkid]

I would say neither. The growth of a child is a thing mutually shared between the child and its parents. The responsibility for the child's growth lies mainly on the parents, because if it did not, the child would not grow, and ultimately society would grow nowhere. Having a child does not come with an inherent responsibility (for the parents) to help it mature, but it is something that is expected of them. And as the child grows, its growth is partly its responsibility as well. Thus, the parents can rightly say that they owe nothing to a child who is absolutely unwilling to grow. And a child can rightly say that it owes nothing to its parents if they have been unwilling to help it grow. Neither party innately owes anything to the other party. But they both work together. And as they do, the child owes gratitude to its parents for their willingness to help it grow. But the parent must then also owe gratitude to the child for wanting to grow. It's not necessarily the parents' fault if the child fails or succeeds.

[Brocerius]

We owe nothing to our parents.
We owe everything to our parents.

In fact, 2 of the opinions are true, it just depends on how you criticize "life".

Yeah, I agree that they are both true - we owe them everything in that they created us, and thus everything.

We owe them nothing in that we never asked to be given all we were given (and I think that is what the quote is saying - because we never asked for this life, and because there was no inherent assurance that this life would be a good one, we shouldn't really feel indebted for having been created).

You can just tell when someone's done more for you than perhaps they should have by any definition of what was expected, and you should certainly be grateful for moments like those. If you have people around you who make those kinds of efforts, you're doing ok.

True. But the point is, the line I quoted says that you should expect everything from your parents - even presents and more esoteric things may well help turn you into a more 'well-rounded' person or somesuch.

So, I suppose you are just saying you disagree with that?

Though I should add, if you are having a really bad life ... you would think that you owe nothing to your parents, they owe you everything.

And same things goes for the opposite; if you are having a good life you would think that you owe everything to your parents.

The quote disagrees. (I believe) it says if you are having a bad life, and your parents could have worked harder to give you a good life, then they have failed as parents, and if you are having a good life then they have merely done as they should have.

Neither, it's a mutual relationship where both parents and offspring owe it to eachother to fufill their respective responsibilites (kids doing chores, parents providing food & shelter).

I personally disagree with that one. Surely as long as the child is dependant on the parent, that parent has a duty to fulfil? It is only when the child is old enough to support itself that I would consider demanding something of it.

I'm not saying that kids shouldn't do chores, of course. I'm saying that it isn't their responsibility to do chores.

Respect your parents.

I know if I pop a child out, I'm not buying anything for the child that I don't intend to use myself. Anything that he earns for himself he can certainly use--and although I shared everything of mine with him, I don't even expect him to share the things he earns with me.

Think about that.

I don't intend to treat the child any better than any other mooch I've had in my apartment.



You kids should be thankful to have parents who intend to do more for you than you've properly warranted of them. Kids today have this sense of entitlement. "I exist, I'm in a Western society, so I deserve the Internet, endless text messages, and the latest games whenever they should come out."

So, yeah, you owe at least a little respect to your folks for fulfilling--at least in part--this overwhelming sense of entitlement you were born with. Also, happy fathers' day. Did you get your old man a tie? You well should.

I'm enjoying imagining you riding around on a foot-high pedal-bike, just to prove to your kid that he is merely borrowing it :P.

And do you help your mooches get dressed, and go to the toilet?

I'm just saying the analogy isn't very appropriate.

And while I do agree with the tenor of this post, I don't think it particularly contradicts, or backs up, anything in the opening quote. Maybe you should be respectful to your parents. Maybe you should be grateful. But you don't owe them anything.

And, a personal question - would you expect this moocher child of yours to get you a tie for fathers day? Or are you just demanding that of the lucky ones?

But yeah, there's nothing unconditional about it. Plenty of children are neglected or abused; there are many cases in which a child owes his parents nothing. But in most cases, you probably owe your parents a lot. They've likely spent considerable resources on you, including their time and emotional effort.

So you don't believe that, by creating you, they owed you as much 'time and emotional effort' as they could reasonably afford to give? Or are you just saying that reality sucks, and you should feel lucky that you had one of the parents that didn't suck (if you did)?

One thing to note, though, is that many Eastern cultures see it opposite the way Brocerius quoted: ... it's the other way around in places like China.

While it is definitely true in today's China that people have children with this fact very much in mind, I'm pretty sure the ideal behind it is that you raise a child well purely for the child's sake - and that if the child decides to return that favour when you are destitute, then lucky you.

What I'm saying is, they may not necessarily see it that way - or maybe they shouldn't. But yes, that's the way it is.

But if your child doesn't [respect you], what would you do as a parent?

You would have failed as a parent.

I would say neither. ... Having a child does not come with an inherent responsibility (for the parents) to help it mature, but it is something that is expected of them. ... the child owes gratitude to its parents for their willingness to help it grow. But the parent must then also owe gratitude to the child for wanting to grow. It's not necessarily the parents' fault if the child fails or succeeds.

I like this post, but I do disagree with it a little - surely, by giving birth to a child you do have an inherent responsibility to it, for at least as long as it takes till it can start to look after itself.

Though, of course, finding a foster parent for it may well come under the category of caring for it.


--------------------------------------------

I should probably have put this in in the opening post, but here is the body of the quote, for interests sake. It is a son talking to his father - his father is trying to convince him not to marry the girl he loves.

Full quote.

John: You listen to me. You say you don't want to tell me how to live my life. So what do you think you've been doing? You tell me what rights I've got or haven't got, and what I owe to you for what you've done for me. Let me tell you something. I owe you nothing! If you carried that bag a million miles, you did what you're supposed to do! Because you brought me into this world. And from that day you owed me everything you could ever do for me like I will owe my son if I ever have another. But you don't own me! You can't tell me when or where I'm out of line, or try to get me to live my life according to your rules. You don't even know what I am, Dad, you don't know who I am. You don't know how I feel, what I think. And if I tried to explain it the rest of your life you will never understand. You are 30 years older than I am. You and your whole lousy generation believes the way it was for you is the way it's got to be. And not until your whole generation has lain down and died will the dead weight of you be off our backs! You understand, you've got to get off my back! Dad... Dad, you're my father. I'm your son. I love you. I always have and I always will.

[yungerkid]

So you don't believe that, by creating you, they owed you as much 'time and emotional effort' as they could reasonably afford to give? Or are you just saying that reality sucks, and you should feel lucky that you had one of the parents that didn't suck (if you did)?

They didn't. What does it mean to owe something in that regard? Reality won't smack you over the head if you don't. Thus children do not have the inherent right (merely in who they are, or their position) to be brought up well by their parents. Only the values of society, in other words, determine who gets what rights - it is not a built in truth of our world - and we know how ephemeral and unreliable the values of society are. And that is not to mention the fact, of course, that the parents and/or society's values are what determines what "being brought up well" means in the first place; the child's will is disregarded in that, and that fact alone means that it is up to the parents to decide how to raise their child. Or it would be, if it weren't for their (assumed) dedication to improvement in general.

I like this post, but I do disagree with it a little - surely, by giving birth to a child you do have an inherent responsibility to it, for at least as long as it takes till it can start to look after itself.

While the parents are not obligated to help a child grow and invest in it, they *are* obligated to do so for another reason. It is part of their contribution to society, part of their contribution to the new life, and part of their contribution to themselves (by the time the child is there, they have already done work - they are obligated to feel the rewards of it or let it go to waste, damaging and undermining the capacity of their own work and abillities). This is not a responsibility inherent in the child or in the parent, or in their relationship, or in their positions. It is a responsibility that is necessitated by the parent's commitment to the general improvement of affairs, according to how the parents view positive contribution. The parent could see positive contribution as beating their child and torturing it - this is not a responsibility donated by society's values. What I am saying is that since the parent has already made the commitment to the improvement of society (and if they haven't, then they do not have a real responsibility to the child's growth), their values (for what defines positive growth) and society's are more or less the same. A parent has no inherent responsibility besides that which they gain from their dedication to improvement of matters in general (society included). Of course, if society's values are not for the improvement of general affairs, then the parent is reponsible for improving the values of society, but that is another matter.