Genre-bashing (?)

[Skyling]

This discussion is led by the following IRC excerpt:

<Lenny> Noise metal is horrible.
<Lenny> It's pretty much atonal, arhythmic, senseless bashing of things.

But I do not want the conversation to focus on it by any means. I have a few questions regarding this sort of thing, however. Is this sort of generalization an acceptable opinion regarding a musical genre or should it be discouraged? Does it come from a lack of experience and uninformed judgment? (Certainly there's no quantitative threshold of experience needed to make an opinion about a style of music)

I think we've had this sort of talk before, but I think it's important.

[Lenny]

Moved to Music, because it's a musical discussion more than it is a debate.

Also, if "noise" lies in the actual genre, you can be pretty sure that it will sound more like noises than music.

[SlappyMcGee]

I think there are genres that many people will not like, even if they were well versed in them. I can't see flagmyidol, for instance, becoming a rap fan after spinning some De La Soul. There's some sort of underlying concept in this debate that every genre has its merits and that anybody who doesn't enjoy country and noise is an ignorant dick, but it is certainly a matter of taste.

It isn't a problem most places, where people do not care about a non-uniform taste in music, at least in my experience. But here, in #music especially, it seems there is the concept that there are some bands universally agreed upon, post-Borealis: maudlin of the Well, Godspeed You!, maybe Owen Pallett, and people actually get kickbanned, however ironically, for not liking a band.

I can understand not liking noise. Especially, as Lenny says, if it is without traditional music arrangement. I would not write off a genre here, like he did, but I would not actively seek out noise. Frankly, I think that whether we express is like Lenny did or not, we're all guilty of some personal genre bashing. Most of us will have the new Hockey album before we'll pick up the latest country album that doesn't rhyme with Pillco.

[a happy song]

I would not write off a genre here, like he did.

You sure?

Country Rock? Christian Metal?

Jokes (kind of).

Genre bashing is fine if you're not talking in absolutes. For instance: "I can't stand Country music. I find it immensely irritating."

Statement doesn't say you think all Country music is shit.

Connotation and contexts, I guess. But then certain genres I'm almost certain I'll never like, RnB for instance, after spending so many years being appalled by its output.

[otters~1]

But then certain genres I'm almost certain I'll never like, RnB for instance, after spending so many years being appalled by its output.

But ... skip back thirty-five years, and it's all really good! :P

I think there are genres that many people will not like, even if they were well versed in them. I can't see flagmyidol, for instance, becoming a rap fan after spinning some De La Soul. There's some sort of underlying concept in this debate that every genre has its merits and that anybody who doesn't enjoy country and noise is an ignorant dick, but it is certainly a matter of taste.

Agreed. I'm not a great example because I'm sort of set-in-stone, but I have sampled rap and I don't like it. At some point I am justified in having an opinion about it.

Most of us will have the new Hockey album before we'll pick up the latest country album that doesn't rhyme with Pillco.

Erm, Wilco was only really /country-ish/ when they did that album with Billy Bragg, imo.

[Tanner]

I hate these threads. I hate the waffling. I hate the repetition. I just want to do a little experiment here. Let's take some quotes from this thread and replace instances of the word "genre" with "race" and see how it makes us look. Race:Human::Genre:Music.

I think there are races that many people will not like, even if they were well versed in them.

Frankly, I think that whether we express is like Lenny did or not, we're all guilty of some personal race bashing.

Race bashing is fine if you're not talking in absolutes.

Ridiculous thread just got ridiculous. We have this strange line that we all draw but don't talk about that states that some things are subjective and some things are not and there's no rhyme or reason to it. All men are created equal but not all music? Why?

At some point I am justified in having an opinion about it.

I'm pretty sure I've heard my grandpa say exactly this about homosexuality.

[Kablizzy]

God damnit, Tanner. I *(love)* you.

I am one of few who listens to Gorramn everything. Yes, country. Yes, Christian Rock. Mmhmm. I've got Gospel. Check the fb - You'll see what up.

[Skyling]

Tanner, that's it exactly. If your grandfather sees a gay/black/objectionable person walking down the street they have all the right in the world (nation) to, yet should probably refrain from, going on and talking about how that "thing" is a subhuman monstrosity (that noise is unmusical / not music). I feel like people too often use the word "musical" to mean "sounding like classical music". There's certainly no congruency there.

And furthermore, it's one thing to say that an entire genre of music is awful, but I think it's another to insult the people who make it or its supposed motives, i.e. "noise metal is pretty much senseless bashing of things" or "rap music is pretty much black people yelling into a microphone" or "classical music is pretty much a bunch of stupid white composers masturbating", things like that. It's so much more malicious than it has to be.

[SlappyMcGee]

I hate these threads. I hate the waffling. I hate the repetition. I just want to do a little experiment here. Let's take some quotes from this thread and replace instances of the word "genre" with "race" and see how it makes us look. Race:Human::Genre:Music.

I think there are races that many people will not like, even if they were well versed in them.

Frankly, I think that whether we express is like Lenny did or not, we're all guilty of some personal race bashing.

Race bashing is fine if you're not talking in absolutes.

Ridiculous thread just got ridiculous. We have this strange line that we all draw but don't talk about that states that some things are subjective and some things are not and there's no rhyme or reason to it. All men are created equal but not all music? Why?

At some point I am justified in having an opinion about it.

I'm pretty sure I've heard my grandpa say exactly this about homosexuality.

First, let me address Kablizzy: I listen to a lot of different genres too. More than you, I'd say, since when me and LV showed you Life on Mars? last year, you said that you don't listen to soft shit. I'm not saying that you don't have broad tastes (either of you), your last.fm profile is massive and awesome, I'm just saying that Tanner is absolutely wrong.

I read this post just before French Class, but I was so rushed that I had to sit in my seat in French for an hour, stewing with rage. Not necessarily at you, Tanner, but at my complete ignorance. Alas, ladies and gentlemen, I have seen the light. How could I have been so ignorant as to leave this forums in the hands of somebody so gorram dumb?

I mean, I'm going to go into this -- That's what I do -- but let me just say that the second you said Race:Human::Genre:Music you revealed your point as completely invalid. I'm not sure whether this is because you do not understand the sonic differences in music or because you're functionally retarded, but let's assume for a moment that it's the latter, since I've heard you recommend some great songs to me in the past.

Your hypothesis is either A) Every genre of music is exactly the same, but just looks different, or B) Every race of human is wildly different. Neither one of those is true at all. Humans are relatively the same, but yeah, we have sociological backgrounds that differ. That is, for instance, why there are certain biological differences between human beings of different race, like an increased percentage with a certain disorder, etc. Musical genres, on the other hand, do share a trait here; they also come from wildly different sociological backgrounds. Analyze, for instance, early punk rock with new wave, and you're going to see that the major difference between the genres is only the movement or phenomenon that spawned them. You could show the Clash to anybody who liked Blondie and expect a reasonable response.

The similarities end here, though. Because while music does come from wildly different sociological backgrounds, that is not the root nor the only thing that distinguishes different genres of music, like you've so aptly likened here. Some music uses different instruments, some music focuses on different keys, there is lyrical subject matter that is more focused on in other genres, or how about the fact that some music is all about instrumentation and other music, about lyricism? There are so many differences between genres of music, whether it be the distortion or, as Lenny pointed out, how the noise rock is out of key and not technically sound to musical theory, that to say something as oversimplified and dumb as what you said is just remarkably sad.

Let me try and demonstrate the incredible ignorance with an example: Rap music, to be considered rap music, should have a beat, and have a certain vocal style overtop of it. Otherwise, it becomes something different. That's the way a genre works; it defines parameters of music, mostly for the purpose of helping people isolate the elements they enjoy. Your theory would hold that Asians would all have to act and look a certain way, or they would cease to be Asian. For instance, an Asian who loves Football, Hotdogs, and Democracy is actually a white guy. A rap album that uses distortion, has Freddie Mercury on vocals, and uses power chords over a four/four beat is a rock album.

And let me explain to you, for a moment, why all "men" are created equally but not all music. When that phrase was coined, that meant that all men deserve equal opportunity because we are all human beings, whether black or white or blasian or fucking Australian. There are human beings who possess talents above all others. Brilliant physicists, fantastic directors, brilliant musicians, even. There are also people who are born with cancer in their brain or Alzheimers or Bi-Polar disorder, if we want to hit close to my home. People are not born of equal quality, but because of our compassion and uniquely human empathy, we allow those people the opportunity to live their lives.

Music, a creation of man, has that same opportunity. That does not mean that all music is equally good, as you shittily suggest. That means that all music has the ability to impress certain people. I would never tell flagmyidol, "flag, don't listen to spoken-word-over-drone. Nobody could enjoy that." simply because I cannot. But frankly, there is music out there that I consider bad. Derivative music, or music that seems lazily produced, or, I can admit, even some music that goes against my pop sensibilities. And if a lot of that music belongs to the same genre, then I can assume that there is something, some element of that music that I find "bad". You don't keep on ordering chicken from a place that makes bad chicken on the chance that the chicken might suddenly be good.


To clear up three other things:
1) I've only ever heard the Wilco/Billy Bragg CD's, and I find it superb that your recognized that, flag. :D
2) I do not have any genres that I believe are unenjoyable for me, before you write me off as some left-wing anti-rap radical.
3) Tanner, do you honestly think that flagmyidol doesn't deserve an opinion about homosexuality? I think that being against homosexuality is stupid, and I don't think this is a good comparison at all, because you're a fucking idiot, but if I was Herr Tanner and I was like, "You don't like gay people? Off to the stocks with you!" I would be incredibly fucking sad.

[Kablizzy]

"classical music is pretty much a bunch of stupid white composers masturbating"

Gahahahahaha. That's going into my sig.

Slaps: I'm also a ridiculous bastard. I listen to a lot of Bowie. And obviously I listen to soft stuff - You've seen me play Musica del Trivioso. Perhaps I was being a bit of an ironic bastard?

[SlappyMcGee]

"classical music is pretty much a bunch of stupid white composers masturbating"

Gahahahahaha. That's going into my sig.

Slaps: I'm also a ridiculous bastard. I listen to a lot of Bowie. And obviously I listen to soft stuff - You've seen me play Musica del Trivioso. Perhaps I was being a bit of an ironic bastard?

DAMN YOUR STRAIGHT FACE

[otters~1]

Right, I obviously agree with Slappy. (And I have nothing against homosexuals, btw. Just making sure. Mhm.)

1) I've only ever heard the Wilco/Billy Bragg CD's, and I find it superb that your recognized that, flag. :D

Yeah, it's kinda country but still rocks and rocks regardless of the country influence or not regardless of the country influence. I own a few others, so: try A Ghost Is Born.

EDIT: Anyone else annoyed that the quote marks on the right of the quote box face the wrong damn direction? (Hermes.)

[Tanner]

I never, ever suggested that all music is inherently equal. You've read a lot into a very short post. I don't know where you got a lot what you refuted in your post. Certainly not from mine.

I did say, however, that all genres are inherently equal because they are. A genre is just a container and even if the majority of its contents are (subjectively or objectively) bad, the container shouldn't be held responsible for that. I don't think there's any way to reasonably judge a genre in and of itself... but that's sort of what this thread is about.

... and I don't like it. At some point I am justified in having an opinion about it.

I'm pretty sure I've heard my grandpa say exactly this about homosexuality.

Fixed. I can see how you might have been confused by that quote. I couldn't find an effective way to quote flag's statement about just thinking his dislike of hip-hop should just be accepted by everyone since he's tried (really, he has) to like rap. My grandpa tried to like black people (serious) but he just couldn't get the feel of it, you know. That's not a problem, is it? I love my grandpa but he's a fucking racist.

[a happy song]

I don't think there's any way to reasonably judge a genre in and of itself.

Of course there is: experience.

I wish I was as open minded as you claim to be, I really do. But if EVERYTHING I've heard from a genre (over a span of 20 years) sets my teeth on edge, I can write off the entire thing pretty easily.

RnB, Country, Thrash Metal... I'm comfortable never hearing anything from these genres again, and I'm more than comfortable denouncing them as shit. Perhaps that's awful of me, but at least my ears don't have to suffer.

This isn't to say that I've built an impenetrable wall around me. If I stumble upon a song from one of those genres I like I'll like it. Simple. I just won't delve there, and I'm more than happy with that.

[Cheez]

RnB, Country, Thrash Metal... I'm comfortable never hearing anything from these genres again, and I'm more than comfortable denouncing them as shit.

This is merely your opinion, but I would like to point out that Metallica, a (former) thrash metal band is a /very/ famous band, 122,280,631 plays so far on last.fm, and the album "Master of Puppets" sold over 500,000 copies without commercial advertisement. Just pointing that out.

As for country, are you speaking of the garbage pop country, or outlaw country (Willie Nelson, Johnny Cash, Hank Williams Jr. etc)? I can manage to listen to outlaw, but pop country just sucks.

RnB I don't have an opinion about.

[a happy song]

RnB, Country, Thrash Metal... I'm comfortable never hearing anything from these genres again, and I'm more than comfortable denouncing them as shit.

This is merely your opinion,

Yes yes, we're all aware. We don't need to write imo tags around everything do we?

..but I would like to point out that Metallica, a (former) thrash metal band is a /very/ famous band, 122,280,631 plays so far on last.fm, and the album "Master of Puppets" sold over 500,000 copies without commercial advertisement. Just pointing that out.

As for country, are you speaking of the garbage pop country, or outlaw country (Willie Nelson, Johnny Cash, Hank Williams Jr. etc)? I can manage to listen to outlaw, but pop country just sucks.

RnB I don't have an opinion about.

I consider Metallica awful. I can't stand anything I've heard (and I've heard everything, up until Load anyway, my friends used to be obsessed), and I've seen them play (Reading 97) and I found them, at best, monotonous.

And commercial success is no solid marker for quality, regardless of how it's achieved (not saying I'm not impressed).

And yes, when I say country I mean the poppy crap. So perhaps I should say Country Pop? I didn't actually think of Cash and Co, so I think I might need to take that back.

[SlappyMcGee]

Most of my post was used to refute the way you compared race to genres, which I can only assume you've ignored because you've been wholeheartedly put in your place.

As for your argument that all genres are created equally, I'm not sure that anybody disagrees. Are you saying that everybody should like every genre? No. But if astheoceansblue, who's very well versed in music, can say that thrash metal doesn't do a thing for him, that's probably because elements of thrash metal are inherently unappealing for him. Genres are not a generic container, like you would posit. Bands are not placed into a random container, and atob is not saying that he hates all of the bands that have been randomly put into container five. The container that is genre does not contain bands; it contains common elements of music. Thrash metal means loud guitars, power chords, guitar solos, 4/4, some pop and rock sensibilities. That's what the container that is thrash metal is. If atob doesn't like, say, loud guitars, he can reasonably write off thrash metal as a genre he likes.

And you obviously missed the point of my post if, once again, you are comparing homosexuality to a genre of music. This is pathetic, Tanner. Please don't assume that I misunderstood your post if you're going to ignore most of mine.

[Tanner]

If you can't keep a civil tongue in your head I have nothing else to say. I'm upset by the tone you've taken here, SlappyMcGee.

[otters~1]

... and I don't like it. At some point I am justified in having an opinion about it.

I'm pretty sure I've heard my grandpa say exactly this about homosexuality.

Fixed. I can see how you might have been confused by that quote. I couldn't find an effective way to quote flag's statement about just thinking his dislike of hip-hop should just be accepted by everyone since he's tried (really, he has) to like rap. My grandpa tried to like black people (serious) but he just couldn't get the feel of it, you know. That's not a problem, is it? I love my grandpa but he's a fucking racist.

I dislike the genre, and enjoy a few certain songs every so often. I keep an open mind. Can your fucking grandfather say the same thing about black people?

As an aside, atob, have you ever heard anything by Marvin Gaye? You probably have, but I must check.

[a happy song]

As an aside, atob, have you ever heard anything by Marvin Gaye? You probably have, but I must check.

Marvin Gaye is cool. And I don't mean old school Rhythm & Blues, I mean the contemporary chart bullshit. R-Kelly, and such.

Should have clarified, my bad.

[Kablizzy]

RnB, Country, Thrash Metal... I'm comfortable never hearing anything from these genres again, and I'm more than comfortable denouncing them as shit.

This is merely your opinion,

Yes yes, we're all aware. We don't need to write imo tags around everything do we?

..but I would like to point out that Metallica, a (former) thrash metal band is a /very/ famous band, 122,280,631 plays so far on last.fm, and the album "Master of Puppets" sold over 500,000 copies without commercial advertisement. Just pointing that out.

As for country, are you speaking of the garbage pop country, or outlaw country (Willie Nelson, Johnny Cash, Hank Williams Jr. etc)? I can manage to listen to outlaw, but pop country just sucks.

RnB I don't have an opinion about.

I consider Metallica awful. I can't stand anything I've heard (and I've heard everything, up until Load anyway, my friends used to be obsessed), and I've seen them play (Reading 97) and I found them, at best, monotonous.

And commercial success is no solid marker for quality, regardless of how it's achieved (not saying I'm not impressed).

And yes, when I say country I mean the poppy crap. So perhaps I should say Country Pop? I didn't actually think of Cash and Co, so I think I might need to take that back.

All I hear is opinion that can be refuted with a simple other opinion.

[OutrightOJ]

This discussion is led by the following IRC excerpt:

<Lenny> Noise metal is horrible.
<Lenny> It's pretty much atonal, arhythmic, senseless bashing of things.

But I do not want the conversation to focus on it by any means. I have a few questions regarding this sort of thing, however. Is this sort of generalization an acceptable opinion regarding a musical genre or should it be discouraged? Does it come from a lack of experience and uninformed judgment? (Certainly there's no quantitative threshold of experience needed to make an opinion about a style of music)

I think we've had this sort of talk before, but I think it's important.

Firstly, anybody can have an opinion, over anything. By what you're saying here, I presume you mean that having such a... blunt, straight-to-the-point, and obviously negative description of a genre, and then expressing it out, should be stopped?

If so, bullshit. People can say anything they want, about anything they want, although providing it doesn't offend anybody in too great a way. And especially to be having such a debate like this about music genres? Pfft.

I believe Lenny was merely expressing his opinion. Did it harm anybody internally, mentally, or make them go into a state of rage or suicidal thoughts? You tell me. And anyway, even if he did happen to injure, does his opinion really concern anybody here? Unless you're actually from a noise metal band, which is highly IMprobable, why should you all give two shits? Your opinion is the one that matters to you. So why bother pissing around about other people's views on the matter?

[scythe]

There are a whole lot of genres I hate,and though I suppose it's not fair to denounce an entire genre, I often say things like "techno is just shitty house".

Country Rock?

If you don't like Johnny Cash, you're either lying or evil.

[SlappyMcGee]

If you don't like Johnny Cash, you're either lying or evil.

Probably the latter.

[a happy song]

All I hear is opinion that can be refuted with a simple other opinion.

Why state the obvious dude? I didn't ever claim my opinion was a marker for some kind of absolute objective fact about anything.

In my head, this is how it exists. Metallica are shit and they always will be.

Sorry if that upsets you.

There are a whole lot of genres I hate,and though I suppose it's not fair to denounce an entire genre, I often say things like "techno is just shitty house".

Country Rock?

If you don't like Johnny Cash, you're either lying or evil.

And yes, when I say country I mean the poppy crap. So perhaps I should say Country Pop? I didn't actually think of Cash and Co, so I think I might need to take that back.

Pay attention, now. ;)