Genre-bashing (?)

[otters~1]

As an aside, atob, have you ever heard anything by Marvin Gaye? You probably have, but I must check.

Marvin Gaye is cool. And I don't mean old school Rhythm & Blues, I mean the contemporary chart bullshit. R-Kelly, and such.

Should have clarified, my bad.

Oh! We're totally cool. Nvm. :D

And what about Rockabilly? Like Buddy Holly? Country rock encompasses a lot of music that people thoughtlessly throw under the bus.

[origami_alligator]

Okay, so I haven't read most of the thread but I do want to say that genre-bashing is just weird and awkward to do. I took it upon myself to delete all my genres one day simply because I didn't like the notion of being pegged as liking "electronic" or "experimental" music. I just want to listen to music.

Sure, I still do the general "genre-bashing" but I do so based on observations I've made from listening to the music from various people. All popular country music sounds the same to me. All the singers use the same similar voice inflections and patterns of speech when singing from what I've heard. There is also an incredibly similar amount of the same musical progressions throughout every damned song in the genre that I've heard. But then again, I love Johnny Cash and I'll listen to some older country now and again. (Of course they call that "folk" music now.)
On the other hand, I love electronic and techno and industrial music, but I can readily see how a lot of people will say, "Oh, that all sounds the same, it just runs off a bass drum and they use the same sounds." Sure, I'll take that. While I'm listening to them say that I'll play songs from 3 or 4 different Venetian Snares albums or mix up some Ratatat with some DJ Shadow and see how they feel about it. I think all one has to do to recognize that a single genre does not sound as similar as it may seem is listen to the music.
I also think that people become so ingrained with their own tastes in music that they shun other types of music on principle. You're bound to find a die-hard Toby Keith fan who loves Daft Punk's "Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger", just as well as you're bound to find a die-hard Wu=Tang Clan fan who loves Animal Collective's "My Girls". There are songs in each genre which people will like, but I think it's easier to say, "I like this song but the rest of the genre sucks," than it is to accept that you don't absolutely hate all music of a single genre.

[a happy song]

As an aside, atob, have you ever heard anything by Marvin Gaye? You probably have, but I must check.

Marvin Gaye is cool. And I don't mean old school Rhythm & Blues, I mean the contemporary chart bullshit. R-Kelly, and such.

Should have clarified, my bad.

Oh! We're totally cool. Nvm. :D

And what about Rockabilly? Like Buddy Holly? Country rock encompasses a lot of music that people thoughtlessly throw under the bus.

Not a fan of Rockabilly, but I haven't heard enough to say I outright detest the genre.

[SlappyMcGee]

I'd just like to point out, as per your Animal Collective Wu-Tang Comment, Ghostface Killah is number nine on my last.fm where Animal Collective is eighteen. Just saying.

[Lenny]

Tanner, that's it exactly. If your grandfather sees a gay/black/objectionable person walking down the street they have all the right in the world (nation) to, yet should probably refrain from, going on and talking about how that "thing" is a subhuman monstrosity.

I disagree. That may think that, but they have no right to state it. They're both people, and that is something many people often forget.

"classical music is pretty much a bunch of stupid white composers masturbating"

Yes, I insulted noise metal, because that is my opinion of it. But you can't simultaneously say that you're not insulting classical music. Because you are. And you're also very wrong - musicality is most certainly not defined to classical.

[SlappyMcGee]

Tanner, that's it exactly. If your grandfather sees a gay/black/objectionable person walking down the street they have all the right in the world (nation) to, yet should probably refrain from, going on and talking about how that "thing" is a subhuman monstrosity.

I disagree. That may think that, but they have no right to state it. They're both people, and that is something many people often forget.

God, you Australians hate Freedom.

[Ianinja]

I started at Rock, moved to Heavy Metal because it had more talent, moved to Death Metal for my mood, moved to Black Metal because of my 'Beliefs', moved to Deathcore for the noise and anger, now I'm currently positioned at Metalcore because of the insane talent and my apresiation for it.

I don't care if anyone doesn't like the things I like because I'm not you.



EDIT - By the way, worst genre that 'Attempted' to fuse together = Hip-Hop and Metalcore/Deathcore
Brokenside = Worst Band in the world because of that reason.

[Skyling]

"classical music is pretty much a bunch of stupid white composers masturbating"

Yes, I insulted noise metal, because that is my opinion of it. But you can't simultaneously say that you're not insulting classical music. Because you are. And you're also very wrong - musicality is most certainly not defined to classical.

I was just trying to give circumspect examples of ignorance, that's not my actual opinion or sentiment towards classical music at all. :p

[Kablizzy]

Why state the obvious dude? I didn't ever claim my opinion was a marker for some kind of absolute objective fact about anything.

In my head, this is how it exists. Metallica are shit and they always will be.

Sorry if that upsets you.

Then keep it in your head. That's the only place opinion needs to be. Once your mouth opens (Or in this case, fingers strike keys [Because, let's face it, typing takes some forethought, so it's not like you're typing before your mind can comprehend it]). By stating anything overtly, that's exactly what you're doing - "Metallica is rubbish" means, "HEY! METAAAAALICA IS RUBBISH AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO I'M TALKING TO RIGHT NOW SHOULD ALSO THINK THE WAY THAT I THINK BECAUSE I'M SOME SORT OF SPECIAL PERSON WHOSE OPINIONS ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVERYONE ELSE'S!" The point of the thread, it seems, is to let you know that your ignorance is misplaced. It's all music. Period. Whether you like it or not isn't the point.

Now, if there's something you'd like to put forth beyond "Well, that's just my opinion" to back absolutely *anything* you're saying up, like, "Lars Ulrich is a homosexual." then I'd love to hear it. After all, that's true in my head.

Let's take an example: laninja says "worst genre that 'Attempted' to fuse together = Hip-Hop and Metalcore/Deathcore," and "Brokenside = Worst Band in the world because of that reason."

K, you don't like the band, no one cares. All he's doing is trolling for dudes that do like that band. After all, niggers should die. THAT'S JUST MY OPINION AND TRUE IN MY HEAD, SO YOU CAN'T TELL ME NOT TO THINK IT. Right?

I believe Lenny was merely expressing his opinion. Did it harm anybody internally, mentally, or make them go into a state of rage or suicidal thoughts? You tell me. And anyway, even if he did happen to injure, does his opinion really concern anybody here? Unless you're actually from a noise metal band, which is highly IMprobable, why should you all give two shits? Your opinion is the one that matters to you. So why bother pissing around about other people's views on the matter?

Your mother's a whore. That's just my opinion, but she's a total slut. Fucked a bunch of dudes. Totally not saying that she sleeps around, but I'm just saying that it's my *opinion* that your mother's cunt has no Standardized Test Score restrictions. Also, I think you should be banned forever from the community. Just my opinion. I think that you're an awful member and think you should be thrown out on your ass.

And you don't see anything wrong with that logic?

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Hey -- no offense, you ignorant fucking philistine, but I think you'll find that the freedom of speech granted to him by this forum (since it's totally whatsoever affiliated with the US government) guarantees him the right to speak his mind openly about any subject without suffering any negative free expression in response. It is speech, therefore it is free, and therefore it is not only incapable by definition of offending someone, but it is illegal to suggest that it might. So I'd watch that whiny socialist mouth given you by that leprous prostitute you call a mother.
No offense, though.

[a happy song]

Then keep it in your head.

I would usually. Unless someone asked my honest opinion of the band or the genre and I'd say. I wouldn't go out of my way to broadcast it. But seeing as this is a discussion on the subject it's a legitimate and honest response.

By stating anything overtly, that's exactly what you're doing - "Metallica is rubbish" means, "HEY! METAAAAALICA IS RUBBISH AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO I'M TALKING TO RIGHT NOW SHOULD ALSO THINK THE WAY THAT I THINK BECAUSE I'M SOME SORT OF SPECIAL PERSON WHOSE OPINIONS ARE MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVERYONE ELSE'S!"

Ridiculous. It absolutely doesn't mean that and you very well know it. I think mushrooms taste bad. I think they're positively horrid. That doesn't mean I think people who enjoy them are lesser than me.

Metallica taste bad to my ears and and give me the aural equivalent of mushroom taste in my mouth. I don't enjoy them. I think they're horrid.

The point of the thread, it seems, is to let you know that your ignorance is misplaced. It's all music. Period. Whether you like it or not isn't the point.

Nope. The point of the thread is whether you can write off an entire genre. And yes, if every piece of experience over 20 years has proved to me that I don't enjoy bands from a certain genre, I will happily write it off (not close myself off as I said, but I won't make any overt effort with it).

Just as I'm not into deity worship because I've seen no proof of a god for the entirety of my life, I don't like Thrash Metal because every band I've heard has made me want to turn the volume down.

Now, if there's something you'd like to put forth beyond "Well, that's just my opinion" to back absolutely *anything* you're saying up, like, "Lars Ulrich is a homosexual." then I'd love to hear it. After all, that's true in my head.

My brain doesn't process their sounds the way yours does. That's it. I'm not even sure what you're attempting to do with this argument. My enjoyment of a band's sound has absolutely nothing to do with anything other than their sound, and nor should it.

Let's take an example: laninja says "worst genre that 'Attempted' to fuse together = Hip-Hop and Metalcore/Deathcore," and "Brokenside = Worst Band in the world because of that reason."

K, you don't like the band, no one cares. All he's doing is trolling for dudes that do like that band. After all, niggers should die. THAT'S JUST MY OPINION AND TRUE IN MY HEAD, SO YOU CAN'T TELL ME NOT TO THINK IT. Right?

Now you're equating not liking music with genocide of a race? Wow.

I get what you mean, but there's no need to go to such extremes or try to paint me as a nigger killer for disliking some crumby metal band. Control yourself, blizz!

And, as I said, unless someone asks me directly, I'm not one to run my mouth off telling people that certain bands are awful. But I will be honest if asked. I won't revel in it though, or take a superior tone about it. God, I hate it when people do that. Makes me want to stick their head in a box and force them to listen to ReLoad on repeat for hours...

[OutrightOJ]

Smorg, you total fucking ass. Did it not occur to you that there is a massively subtle difference between your two subjects?

If you dont' get my point, you're a complete twat. Providing it doesn't fucking offend?

I can't tell if you're serious or not, but if you are, then go fuck yourself.I don't see how i'm an 'awful member' and why I should be banned from the community. I'm explaining my opinions and you're making shit from them. Momentarily I feel I have better reason to stay in this community than you have.

[a happy song]

Smorg, you total fucking ass. Did it not occur to you that there is a massively subtle difference between your two subjects?

If you dont' get my point, you're a complete twat. Providing it doesn't fucking offend?

I can't tell if you're serious or not, but if you are, then go fuck yourself.I don't see how i'm an 'awful member' and why I should be banned from the community. I'm explaining my opinions and you're making shit from them. Momentarily I feel I have more right to be here than you have.

Blizz just uses ridiculous extremes. He's a professional troll at heart. Don't take him too seriously.

[yahoozy]

Also, Metallica is rubbish.

[Kablizzy]

paint me as a nigger killer

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST, FOLKS. STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH. In either case, to start being a bit serious, you dislike mushrooms and Metallica. Those are things you dislike. That has no bearing on a genre and you know *that*. So regardless of whether or not you've heard ten or two hundred examples of a genre, the genre is still musical prowess being executed. Within reason, of course. Seeing as how I listen to everything, I take no offense to people picking and choosing their musical tastes, because after all - I have no influence upon their satisfaction. That said, though, I bet I could show you a number of examples from absolutely every genre that you'd not only approve of, but might like, love, or turn your opinion of a genre on its ear. Let's take The Forest and The Fire, for instance. I hate that kind of music. Oh my dear lord, it's grating. Especially that vocalist. And everything like it, I just can't stand. Basically anything out of Britain just grates on my nerves (Just so we're clear, I'm just fucking with you to make a point. I'm a huge fan. Please sign my tits.). But when a band in a couple years innovates just a slight bit on the sound and I really dig it, and it turns my world on its ear (PUN. IT'S A PUN.), I'll go back and listen to all the other songs that I hated, and OH MY DEAR LORD, I LOVES THEM. This has happened to me a number of times throughout the years. I hated Weezer back in the day. I hated Green Day. Still do dislike the Offspring. Still hate Sum41 and abso-fucking-lutely *Loathed* John Mayer and his ilk. I now love most of those artists, even the songs that I used to hate. And why? One thing I've learned is that humans are dumb and fallible and ridiculous. And crossing your arms with pencils protruding from each ear whilst going, "NUH UH. I HATES THAT GENRE." is dumb and fallible and ridiculous, because you have a finite amount of information. Same with hating Asian food because you had a bad experience with some unagi. It's human, but it's dumb. You're still completely entitled to be dumb and fallible and ridiculous, due to that "Freedom of" thing that Suki spoke a bit of, albeit as ridiculously as he could have. But that still doesn't make it any less dumb and fallible and ridiculous. The whole freedom of speech thing we have in the western world is cool, but people take it too far. Look at /b/ over the past 24 hours. I mean, don't. *Ker-WINK*

Smorg, you total fucking ass. Did it not occur to you that there is a massively subtle difference between your two subjects?

If you dont' get my point, you're a complete twat. Providing it doesn't fucking offend?

I can't tell if you're serious or not, but if you are, then go fuck yourself.I don't see how i'm an 'awful member' and why I should be banned from the community. I'm explaining my opinions and you're making shit from them. Momentarily I feel I have more right to be here than you have.

Gahahaha. Ahahahahah. Ahah. Ahahaah. Ahah. Hoo boy. God, I wish I could see the look on your face. Someone remind me to Polaroid this shit in the future. Sit down and be a good peon.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

I don't see how i'm an 'awful member' and why I should be banned from the community.

Whoah, whoah, has anyone threatened you with this?
And if anyone has threatened to take any administrative action against you for a well-intentioned statement of your opinion, you tell me their names and I'll strip them of their staff status right here and now.

I'm explaining my opinions and you're making shit from them.

Yeaaaaah, that's kinda how we end up doin' here. Sharing your opinions and getting feedback on them is often a benefit: you find out which opinions of yours are silly, if any, any you have a chance to reinforce the well-founded and reasonable ones. To refrain from participating in this process is the epitome of closed-mindedness, as it's a rejection of the application of critical thinking and the opportunity for personal growth.
This is a conversation between friends. Or more realistically, between trolls and people who are confused and don't know better, with maybe a smattering of constructive sidebarring. So long as you're not being replied to with just "COCKS COCKS COCKS COCKS COCKS," it's a learning opportunity.

[a happy song]

And crossing your arms with pencils protruding from each ear whilst going, "NUH UH. I HATES THAT GENRE." is dumb and fallible and ridiculous, because you have a finite amount of information.

And yes, if every piece of experience over 20 years has proved to me that I don't enjoy bands from a certain genre, I will happily write it off (not close myself off as I said, but I won't make any overt effort with it).

This isn't to say that I've built an impenetrable wall around me. If I stumble upon a song from one of those genres I like I'll like it. Simple. I just won't delve there, and I'm more than happy with that.

-

That said, though, I bet I could show you a number of examples from absolutely every genre that you'd not only approve of, but might like, love, or turn your opinion of a genre on its ear.

Please do! You're free to recommend me anything you think might change my opinion. I'm more than open. Ready and waiting. Greased up and willing. Perfumed an...

*ahem*

Yes, quite.

[Lenny]

The point of the thread, it seems, is to let you know that your ignorance is misplaced. It's all music. Period. Whether you like it or not isn't the point.

Well, yeah. Everything that's audible in the history of "for ever" is music. I thought we were discussing the musicality of this music - or more specifically, the occasional lack thereof.

[乳头的早餐谷物]

The whole freedom of speech thing we have in the western world is cool, but people take it too far. Look at /b/ over the past 24 hours. I mean, don't. *Ker-WINK*

I like how you made that comment while exhibiting trolling behaviour in this thread that would make a /b/-tard proud.

[SlappyMcGee]

First of all, I hope that Kablizzy is taking this whole thing to extremes to ironically illustrate the incredible stupidness of his point. But let's say for a moment that he is not:

I would like you to refute the points in my post where I discredited "race:humanity::genre:music". Tanner doesn't want to because I was a cunt to him in the post, and that's cool, but if you're going to call atop a figurative nigger killer, I think it would be nice if you tried to answer the posts that go against that.

[Kablizzy]

First of all, I hope that Kablizzy is taking this whole thing to extremes to ironically illustrate the incredible stupidness of his point.

You all know me too well. ;)

[otters~1]

I started at Rock, moved to Heavy Metal because it had more talent...

Lol. (Sorry.)

EDIT: Really, I think atob wins the thread.

[Tanner]

I feel like a lot of what I've said in this thread has been misconstrued so let me reiterate my basic standpoint on this whole thing. I am of the opinion that it is wrong to pass judgment on a genre of music because they encompass too large a base for any one person to get an accurate sample.

I mean, there's a lot of music out there, right? More than you or I can listen to and, really, it's only getting more so. So we've started making compromises so as to facilitate conversation. atob said, "And yes, if every piece of experience over 20 years has proved to me that I don't enjoy bands from a certain genre, I will happily write it off (not close myself off as I said, but I won't make any overt effort with it)." flagmyidol said, "At some point I am justified in having an opinion about it." Meanwhile, we've heard such a minuscule portion of the given genre. I'll bet that, in 20 years, atob has heard less than 1% of all thrash metal. It is wrong to pass judgment on something without being properly educated in it.

Let me try and demonstrate the incredible ignorance with an example: Rap music, to be considered rap music, should have a beat, and have a certain vocal style overtop of it. Otherwise, it becomes something different. That's the way a genre works; it defines parameters of music, mostly for the purpose of helping people isolate the elements they enjoy. Your theory would hold that Asians would all have to act and look a certain way, or they would cease to be Asian. For instance, an Asian who loves Football, Hotdogs, and Democracy is actually a white guy. A rap album that uses distortion, has Freddie Mercury on vocals, and uses power chords over a four/four beat is a rock album.

I wanted to address this, specifically, because I think it's pertinent to the point I'm trying to make. Genres are wicked flexible. Example: Rites of Spring and My Chemical Romance both fall under the post-hardcore banner. Are there similarities in their sound? Some but mostly they're entirely different musically and popular thought would have us believe that they appeal to an entirely different demographic of people. It's an assumption that's invariably going to be proven false that anyone who likes The Clash is going to at least sort of like Blondie. If a single person doesn't fall on your side of the fence here, your statement won't be true and, opinions on bands being what they are, I can guarantee you that person exists. Therefore, because genres are so malleable, it makes it even worse to pass judgment on one.

Above all, this is not to say that I don't think you should have an opinion on an album or even an artist. These things are cohesive enough that consuming all related media isn't too daunting a task. A whole genre, though? It's just impossible and, as such, unreasonable.

[SlappyMcGee]

See, there is a lot of logic and reason in that post and I like it.

But I disagree with you on the fact that you have to hear everything in a genre to make an informed opinion on it. To exist inside of a genre, you have to meet certain attributes. A genre does not contain random bands, as I said earlier, because it has certain criteria that make My Chemical Romance post-hardcore (Really? Maybe their first album.) If you don't have those specific criteria, you don't have a genre, you just have a list of bands.

So, when atob says, "I don't like thrash metal." perhaps he could elaborate on what he doesn't like about thrash metal, like, say, the distorted guitars or the common lyrical subject matter. Bands that have some of those qualities but do not embody all of them are usually seen as crossing genres or starting a new genres, and that's why we have the enormous splinters in genres that we do. Like, for instance, I think it's pretty impossible for somebody to not like rock, because rock is such a generic term, it embodies almost all of the music that's come since. But rap metal? Yeah, that's a pretty well defined genre, it's small, and if you don't like fast lyrics and loud guitars, rap metal is not for you.

[a happy song]

It is wrong to pass judgment on something without being properly educated in it.

What's "properly educated" in the context anyway? Regarding Thrash Metal. I can't stand Slayer, Metallica, nor Megadeth... I've heard all the big players between 90-2002-3 or so (when I gave up trying, thereabouts), I've heard more since then from newer bands when my friends put it on, and so on, I can tell you in all sincerity, I've heard enough from the genre to be able to write it off knowing that there's not going to be enough differentiation from the core of it to satisfy my tastes.

You'll have to trust me on this, I'm educated enough.

There are only a few genres I will say I detest, and will likely detest until the day I die: Pop RnB, Thrash Metal, Pop Country, Grime (sorry dizzy, even you mate), Garage (dance garage, not rock), Happy Hardcore, Gabba, Jungle. <- I've been very well versed in all of these besides pop country. So perhaps you have me there...

To answer slappy's request: I don't like the screeching guitars, I can't stand wanky shredding (even though I can fully appreciate the talent behind it) ,I don't like (what I consider) the cheesy atmosphere of it all, I think the aesthetics are comical (when played up during the early 90s anyway, not so much now), I don't like the doom and gloom lyrics most subscribe to, honestly, it just seems like one of the most templated genres out there besides nu-metal.