The Problem of Evil

[Aldaric]

The important question is - Are YOU happier believing in God or not believing in God? I personally do not find enjoyment or happiness from believing in God.

[Tunco]

The important question is - Are YOU happier believing in God or not believing in God? I personally do not find enjoyment or happiness from believing in God.

I think it's strange you think it that way. I mean, you can give a lot of meanings into a stupid object, it can be the only thing that engages you to live, and when you say that that means God is just one of those objects, however I'm speaking from a atheist person's mouth.

Which means that you can find that happiness from anything you would like and personally speaking, what you said doesn't makes any sense. imo.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

The important question is - Are YOU happier believing in God or not believing in God? I personally do not find enjoyment or happiness from believing in God.

I agree with Tunco.
Y'know what's invigorating? Witch hunts. Humans have always been very fond of witch hunts. For a modern example, consider Uganda's position on homosexuality: they have parades to show their support for the death penalty for homosexuality. This mindset is based entirely on the religious belief that homosexual people are intrinsically evil and actively seek to corrupt society and drag others to Hell with them. Witch hunts make humans quite happy, indeed.
I am entirely opposed to the idea that contentedness with your beliefs justifies them in any way whatsoever.

[otters~1]

I agree with Tunco.

That makes twice in two days, bro.

[Aldaric]

I think it's strange you think it that way. I mean, you can give a lot of meanings into a stupid object, it can be the only thing that engages you to live, and when you say that that means God is just one of those objects, however I'm speaking from a atheist person's mouth.

Which means that you can find that happiness from anything you would like and personally speaking, what you said doesn't makes any sense. imo.

I actually did not understand you either, but I agree that the things that make you happy are individual. God can be something that brings people happiness, and if it does I am all for you making yourself happier, provided it isn't against my morals. Even if it is against my morals, I except that people will try doing it anyway because people do things for happiness.

The important question is - Are YOU happier believing in God or not believing in God? I personally do not find enjoyment or happiness from believing in God.

I agree with Tunco.
Y'know what's invigorating? Witch hunts. Humans have always been very fond of witch hunts. For a modern example, consider Uganda's position on homosexuality: they have parades to show their support for the death penalty for homosexuality. This mindset is based entirely on the religious belief that homosexual people are intrinsically evil and actively seek to corrupt society and drag others to Hell with them. Witch hunts make humans quite happy, indeed.
I am entirely opposed to the idea that contentedness with your beliefs justifies them in any way whatsoever.

I do applaud you. You somehow have pinned me with witch hunters that kill people for happiness. It does make me look bad, but it has nothing to do with my statement. I do NOT support the killing of homosexuals. I believe people will do what makes them happy, but that does NOT mean I support it. I do support maxson's belief in a God if it makes him happier, because I do not believe that maxson's belief will go against my morals. (If it did I would not support his belief obviously.) The fact is people are going to do what makes them happy. You can think it is terrible and even try to prevent it, if that makes you happy, but I don't see you, Suki, helping the homosexuals in Uganda. Obviously, helping them does not make you happier than the time, effort, or money that it would cost to help. I support trying to be happy, as long as it does not go against my morals. (I highly doubt that you are helping the homosexuals in Uganda because of your little, "What has the World done for me? Why should I help it?" post in the General Discussion topic. If you are, good for you, but it does not change the important part of what I have said.)

[otters]

The important question is - Are YOU happier believing in God or not believing in God? I personally do not find enjoyment or happiness from believing in God.

I agree with Tunco.
Y'know what's invigorating? Witch hunts. Humans have always been very fond of witch hunts. For a modern example, consider Uganda's position on homosexuality: they have parades to show their support for the death penalty for homosexuality. This mindset is based entirely on the religious belief that homosexual people are intrinsically evil and actively seek to corrupt society and drag others to Hell with them. Witch hunts make humans quite happy, indeed.
I am entirely opposed to the idea that contentedness with your beliefs justifies them in any way whatsoever.

I do applaud you. You somehow have pinned me with witch hunters that kill people for happiness. It does make me look bad, but it has nothing to do with my statement. I do NOT support the killing of homosexuals.

Paranoia? He gave an example that contradicted your statement. It's not important if you derive satisfaction from following your moral creed if that creed involves raping children or killing homosexuals. I'm not saying YOU do that, but I am saying you're wrong. What you said was not the important question.

The important question is "Can I believe in this thing without oppressing or abusing innocent people around me for its sake?"

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

I do NOT support the killing of homosexuals. I believe people will do what makes them happy, but that does NOT mean I support it. I do support maxson's belief in a God if it makes him happier, because I do not believe that maxson's belief will go against my morals. (If it did I would not support his belief obviously.)

Okay, at least one of us is confused.
Your statement, "the important question is - Are YOU happier believing in God or not believing in God?" made me think that you were basing faith primarily on whether or not it makes you happy. But when you said, "I believe people will do what makes them happy, but that does NOT mean I support it", I thought for a moment that I had misunderstood your point in saying the first, and that you were really just pointing out why people have faith rather than why they should.
But now with this full quote block, above, I see that what you really mean is that you support faith that makes people happy, so long as you're happy with the reason it makes them happy. That is to say, you'd encourage someone to have faith if it brings them happiness and they don't become hateful or discriminatory based on that faith, but that you wouldn't encourage someone to have faith if it brings them happiness that is derived from a faith-based hate and discrimination.

It seems to me that you're being inconsistent, then, in your support of faith with the simple statement of "if it makes you happy," because it turns out that that's not at all what you base your support of faith on. Instead, your encouragement of faith is dependent on what it will do to their societal values, but your consciousness has misunderstood your real reasons and believes that you encourage or discourage faith based on the happiness it brings people. Clearly, the part of you that thinks it understands how you think has missed the point.

For example, let's say that you claim to hate tall people, whereas I think you actually just hate black people.
I see you say, "I hate tall people." So I ask, "why would you hate tall people?" You respond with, "well, you know, I hate tall people when they happen to be black, but I'm fine with tall people when they're white." If I follow up with, "so how do you feel about short, black people versus short, white people" (as I'm about to do the equivalent after this paragraph), and get the expected answer of, "short people are okay, except when they're black," then I've confirmed that you're misattributing your hatred of black people, and that tallness is actually quite irrelevant.

So, like I promised, let me ask you:
What do you think of benevolence derived from a totally secular, humanist perspective on society?
How about a secular view that holds selfishness in high regard and spurns benevolence to strangers?
I ask these expecting the answers, "I support this view," and, "I do not support this view," respectively, in which case I will have the following statements to work with:
"I like faith when it makes people happy, and when it makes them generous."
"I don't like faith when it makes people happy, and when it makes them hateful."
"I like secular views that make people happy, and when they make them generous."
"I don't like secular views that make people happy, and when they make them hateful."
Clearly, happiness is irrelevant.

[Aldaric]

Yeah, I was kind of tired last night. Let me clear this up a bit.
People will always do what they think will make them the happiest. If he is confused about God or any old thing, all he has to do is ask himself, "What course of action will make me the happiest." That will always lead to the best life possible. So, if believing in God really does make him a happier person than not believing in God, he should believe in God. I might not support it or think he is right, but if it really does make him happier FOR HIM it would be the best decision. I do not know that believing in God will make maxson happier than not believing, that is something he has to find for himself to be the happiest person possible. Being the happiest you can be is the goal of every human. Didn't see your post. (Goes off to read it. Will make an edit when I have done so.)

Suki: "I like faith when it makes people happy, and when it makes them generous."
Me: I support the fact that they will do it if it makes them the happiest. I do like this situation, but that is not what is important.
Suki:"I don't like faith when it makes people happy, and when it makes them hateful."
Me: I don't have any control over this. People will do what makes them happy. Why do people do hateful things for their religion? It makes them happy to do it, and in their opinion they are not doing hateful things. I would try to change their view, but accept that people will ultimately do what makes them the happiest.
"I like secular views that make people happy, and when they make them generous."
Me: Once again it does not matter what I like. People are going to do what makes them the happiest. If a secular view that promotes generosity makes a person happy than so be it. I personally don't find anythinig wrong with it. It just is what it is.
Suki:"I don't like secular views that make people happy, and when they make them hateful."
Me: I don't like hatefulness, but if that is what makes people happy, I appreciate the fact that they will do anything as long as it makes them happier than the other options.
Suki:Clearly, happiness is irrelevant.
Me: Happiness is never irrelevant because it is the reason of every human action. If I like one thing, it does not mean that everyone will/has to like it. If I do not like something, it does not mean that everybody will/has to like it. Everyone is different, but you can always have the best life possible, if you always pick what will make you the happiest.

[lord_day]

Believing in Unicorns would make me happy, but that doesn't mean that I do believe in Unicorns... I'm confused by why you think people believe in God just to be happy. Belief isn't something you choose. It's something you conclude, isn't it?

[otters~1]

Belief isn't something you choose. It's something you conclude, isn't it?

Seems to me that most of the time it's something that you have concluded for you, as it were.

[Scrivener]

Your statement about unicorns is false. You do believe whatever makes you happy, but this includes being happy because you are right, or being unhappy because you know you're wrong. therefore, believing in unicorns would probably not make you happy, because you'd be wrong. but believing in something that a lot of other people believe in allows you to convince yourself that you're right, making it easier for a more popular religion to make you happy believing in it.

[Aldaric]

Yes. If you really would be happier believing in the unicorn and were not just saying it as a joke, you would believe in it. By saying that you would be happier by believing in a unicorn you are lying to yourself because you said yourself that you don't believe in it. So believing in the unicorn could not possibly bring you more happiness than whatever your beliefs are right now.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Okay, so you really were just pointing out that happiness is a strong motivator for humans. This fact is obvious and does not contribute to the topic. Thanks for playing.

[otters~1]

You don't decide to believe something because it makes you happier.

Sorry, but isn't this what most Christians do?

You are compelled to believe something because you have seen evidence for it.

This -should- be true, but isn't.

[Aldaric]

Okay, so you really were just pointing out that happiness is a strong motivator for humans. This fact is obvious and does not contribute to the topic. Thanks for playing.

It is not obvious to everybody, and it is helpful. When somebody is having trouble answering a question, it is always helpful to be reminded that the best course of action is the one that makes you the happiest. For example - Should I believe in this God that has so many inconsistencies? Yes, if it really does make you happier. Seeing as how maxson tried so hard to defend his God even under an undefedable situation, I would think the answer would be yes.

With a few exceptions, beliefs are involuntary. You don't decide to believe something because it makes you happier. You are compelled to believe something because you have seen evidence for it. People who can convince themselves of beliefs that contradict the known evidence in order to feel happy either suffer extreme cognitive dissonance or are psychotic.

@Suki Obviously, Demonz does not think that happiness is the motivator of every human action. Obviously, it is not obvious for everyone.
@Demonz I just don't agree with what you said here. I know that is not a good way to debate... but I think what you said is wrong. I guess, I can try to give an example. If somebody is unhappy believing in something, then they are going to stop believing in it if it makes them happier. Give me one example of a human action where I can not explain the action through the want of happiness.

[Tanner]

When somebody is having trouble answering a question, it is always helpful to be reminded that the best course of action is the one that makes you the happiest.

Wow. Really? Do you honestly believe that? That's... dangerous. It has really potent repercussions for the people around you. You're constantly going to be fucking them over because the thing that's easiest for you and makes you happiest in the short term will involve ignoring favours or debts that you owe to them. On top of that, in order to make your life more pleasant, you'll constantly be taking advantage of people's (and organization's) generosity. You will become a plague on every level of government and acquaintance. You'll spend all day playing your roommate's PS3, masturbating, growing inevitably older but no wiser until you die.

... or get a show on MTV.

[SkyPanda]

If somebody is unhappy believing in something, then they are going to stop believing in it if it makes them happier. Give me one example of a human action where I can not explain the action through the want of happiness.

Are a belief and an action similar or equivalent? If Demonz is saying that belief is involuntary and therefore not caused by a desire for happiness, then surely there is little merit in you suggesting that voluntary actions are caused by a desire for happiness.

As for people not believing in things that make them unhappy, what about atheists? If we consider belief to be synonymous with position here (because 1:I don't think this affects your point, and 2:atheism is not necessarily a belief) then most atheists hold a position which may make them quite unhappy, afraid or lonely. Yet they remain atheists. This might be because they value truth, or because they don't have conscious control over their belief, or because they have a negative view of organised religion, or for any number of possible reasons. But there's your case, people who hold a position which makes them unhappy.

[Tunco]

I don't get it. Aldaric, your point is wandering. Please elaborate and make a conclusion.


---

When somebody is having trouble answering a question, it is always helpful to be reminded that the best course of action is the one that makes you the happiest.

Wow. Really? Do you honestly believe that? That's... dangerous. It has really potent repercussions for the people around you. You're constantly going to be fucking them over because the thing that's easiest for you and makes you happiest in the short term will involve ignoring favours or debts that you owe to them. On top of that, in order to make your life more pleasant, you'll constantly be taking advantage of people's (and organization's) generosity. You will become a plague on every level of government and acquaintance. You'll spend all day playing your roommate's PS3, masturbating, growing inevitably older but no wiser until you die.

... or get a show on MTV.

Yeah, I was just going to say that before reading Tanner's post, doing what makes you happy is not the best option. For example, I'm really mad at a person, so mad I want to kill him, killing him is the best option for me at the moment, which will make me the happiest. Therefore, I kill the person. Do you think that is right? No. So I guess you are just not right about your statement.

[Aldaric]

When somebody is having trouble answering a question, it is always helpful to be reminded that the best course of action is the one that makes you the happiest.

Wow. Really? Do you honestly believe that? That's... dangerous. It has really potent repercussions for the people around you. You're constantly going to be fucking them over because the thing that's easiest for you and makes you happiest in the short term will involve ignoring favours or debts that you owe to them.

I believe that right now, and for the ENTIRE existence of the human race, people have made decisions purely on the goal to be happy. I make every decision based on what will make me the happiest, but I have many friends and I would like to think that I am not a terrible person. Why? How can I make every decision based on my happiness, and not become a jerk like you have described? I will tell you. I know that if I was a jerk and ignored favours and debts, people would not like me. I also know myself well enough to know that I am happy when people like me. So, by being a good person an earning respect I am happier than if I was a complete asshole.

On top of that, in order to make your life more pleasant, you'll constantly be taking advantage of people's (and organization's) generosity. You will become a plague on every level of government and acquaintance. You'll spend all day playing your roommate's PS3, masturbating, growing inevitably older but no wiser until you die.
... or get a show on MTV.

No, like I have already explained, doing these things will not make me the happiest. I do not take advantage of people's generosity because I know that would bring me less happiness. I do not play video games all day because I like hanging out with friends and family. I do masturbate, but I don't do it constantly. I like learning, it makes me happy to learn, therefore I try to learn. I really don't understand why people think people are naturally selfish. We are actually quite a loving and caring species. If we were not made happy by being good, we would not be good.

Yeah, I was just going to say that before reading Tanner's post, doing what makes you happy is not the best option. For example, I'm really mad at a person, so mad I want to kill him, killing him is the best option for me at the moment, which will make me the happiest. Therefore, I kill the person. Do you think that is right? No. So I guess you are just not right about your statement.

Would killing the person you are mad at REALLY make you the happiest? I would not kill a person I was mad at because it would make me unhappy. You guys really need to think before you right these things. Do you guys not think about consequences? Assuming that killing the person makes you happier, does it succeed all the unhappiness that comes from it? Going to jail and all the hate that killing people brings, just off the top of my head, makes it a bad decision. This next part is very important - People do make mistakes. I have not always picked the best decision, the decision that makes me the most happy. I have always tried, but I have not always chosen correctly. As you grow and learn though, you can make better decisions.

If somebody is unhappy believing in something, then they are going to stop believing in it if it makes them happier. Give me one example of a human action where I can not explain the action through the want of happiness.

Are a belief and an action similar or equivalent? If Demonz is saying that belief is involuntary and therefore not caused by a desire for happiness, then surely there is little merit in you suggesting that voluntary actions are caused by a desire for happiness.

That is the thing. Demonz is wrong. Beliefs ARE voluntary.

As for people not believing in things that make them unhappy, what about atheists? If we consider belief to be synonymous with position here (because 1:I don't think this affects your point, and 2:atheism is not necessarily a belief) then most atheists hold a position which may make them quite unhappy, afraid or lonely. Yet they remain atheists. This might be because they value truth, or because they don't have conscious control over their belief, or because they have a negative view of organised religion, or for any number of possible reasons. But there's your case, people who hold a position which makes them unhappy.

Thank you for saying this... thank you very much. First, let us talk about a very well known person named Socrates. Socrates was once held to trial by the town, because well... pretty much he pissed them all off and was teaching the youngins bad things in the opinion of the towns people. Was what he was teaching to the youth actually wrong? Well, in the opinion of the entire town, it was wrong, but Socrates thought he was right. Now, some serious arguing was thrown down by good old Socrates, but in the end it was pretty obvious that he was going to end up in the slammer. He knew where it was headed and he said something to the lines of, "Someone might wonder why I would continue standing by my opinion/ideal/belief when it means that I will be arrested. (Remember that I am paraphrasing quite a bit because I only remember the general idea. Now back to Socrates) I stand by my belief because it is important, and I know I am right. You can put me in jail, but there are more like me out in the world. You will not be able to throw them all in jail." So off to jail he went. Later his students tried to break him out and would have succeeded if Socrates had not refused to go. So why would Socrates be willing to go and then stay in jail? Obviously, he was happier supporting what he believed to be right, then he was not supporting his belief. The consequence was jail, which is a negative, but he believed that supporting his belief was more positive than the jail thing. He did all this because this is what made him the happiest. Everyone is different. We all need to decide for ourselves when the positives outweigh the negatives. When is supporting our beliefs less important than the consequence? It really depends on the situation. As for me, I would not go to jail to support my belief and I would definitely not die to support my belief... usually. It really depends on the situation, and what belief you are supporting or not supporting. The point is supporting your beliefs makes you happy. Supporting a belief is one out of many things that make people happy. To make the best decision, you must think of the good and the bad, then finally, decide which option will make you the happiest.

[lord_day]

That is the thing. Demonz is wrong. Beliefs ARE voluntary.

This is the part of your post that baffles me most. I know my beliefs are not voluntary. There is no way I could just decide to believe that God exists, as I base my beliefs from evidence that I've come across. Do you really think that people can just change switch their beliefs whenever they want?

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

tl;dr
You guys have at 'em. I'm done.

[Aldaric]

That is the thing. Demonz is wrong. Beliefs ARE voluntary.

This is the part of your post that baffles me most. I know my beliefs are not voluntary. There is no way I could just decide to believe that God exists, as I base my beliefs from evidence that I've come across. Do you really think that people can just change switch their beliefs whenever they want?

You were not born with beliefs. As you grew and lived you created your own beliefs. You voluntarily made or chose what to believe. A Christian army could come, and force you to practice their religion, but you always have your thoughts. Just because you are practicing their religion does not mean you have to believe in their religion. Beliefs are voluntary. I repeat, you made or chose what to believe voluntarily. People will change their beliefs if they really want to, if they really think that the other belief is better. There is no way you could just start believing in God because you don't want to, you think your belief right now is better. Other people have changed their beliefs, have you heard of conversion. The Christians have done a whole lot of it. Obviously, it is possible to change your beliefs. You can't just think you you you.

Edit: Suki don't be dumb. If you can't argue with what I have to say, than don't post like that. Don't post at all. Happiness, Suki, is not just a strong motivator. It is THE motivator. The only one that exists.

[Seneschal]

As you grew and lived you created your own beliefs. You voluntarily made or chose what to believe.

...based on evidence, or because you've been raised into that belief by your parents/guardians/etc. Not because you think it would make you happy. The main point of a faith is that you have to, er, actually have faith. Even if you "choose" a religion to follow because you think it will make you happy, you're not really following it if you don't actually believe in it. You even agree with this yourself:

A Christian army could come, and force you to practice their religion, but you always have your thoughts. Just because you are practicing their religion does not mean you have to believe in their religion

Beliefs are voluntary. I repeat, you made or chose what to believe voluntarily. People will change their beliefs if they really want to, if they really think that the other belief is better.

You're getting confused with the word voluntarily here. People don't change their beliefs "if they really want to ", they change their belief because they think that their own belief is false, and that another belief is true. They can't change just because they think another belief will make them happier. Even if they pretend to follow another belief because they feel this, they're not actually believing in it.

There is no way you could just start believing in God because you don't want to, you think your belief right now is better.

Er, exactly. I.e. belief isn't voluntary, in the sense that you mean.

Other people have changed their beliefs, have you heard of conversion. The Christians have done a whole lot of it.

Unfortunately they have. However, they don't convert people by saying that Christianity will make you happier, they convert people by saying that Christianity is true, and providing "evidence" for this. Or, if they do try to convert people by saying "that heathens burn in hell", or a similar nonsense, it may change what people appear to believe in the outside but it won't change their actual beliefs.

Finally, a little comparison:

There is no way I could just decide to believe that God exists, as I base my beliefs from evidence that I've come across. Do you really think that people can just change switch their beliefs whenever they want?

There is no way you could just start believing in God because you don't want to, you think your belief right now is better.

You're essentially saying the same thing, except you're somehow arguing against him o_o

[Tanner]

When somebody is having trouble answering a question, it is always helpful to be reminded that the best course of action is the one that makes you the happiest.

Wow. Really? Do you honestly believe that? That's... dangerous. It has really potent repercussions for the people around you. You're constantly going to be fucking them over because the thing that's easiest for you and makes you happiest in the short term will involve ignoring favours or debts that you owe to them.

I believe that right now, and for the ENTIRE existence of the human race, people have made decisions purely on the goal to be happy. I make every decision based on what will make me the happiest, but I have many friends and I would like to think that I am not a terrible person. Why? How can I make every decision based on my happiness, and not become a jerk like you have described? I will tell you. I know that if I was a jerk and ignored favours and debts, people would not like me. I also know myself well enough to know that I am happy when people like me. So, by being a good person an earning respect I am happier than if I was a complete asshole.

So, what makes you happy in the long term outweighs what makes you happy in the short term? Why haven't you said this yet? This is a really important point in your ideology because it means that two happinesses can be mutually exclusive. Surely, though, the long term one won't always be the correct choice. Surely there are some times when buying a chocolate bar will bring me more happiness than investing that money in a mutual fund. How, then, do I know which happiness I should be aiming for? Or are you recommending that we purge ourselves of all desires and yearn only for Moksha?

[Tunco]

Yet I do support Ganteka and Tanner, Aldaric, you are just talking too big and not reading your posts. Also, it's not cool to call people dumb. He just gave up arguing with you because you change the subject all the time and you just talk too big. You should change that attitude. And please shorten up your posts a little bit, just get to the point. Making long but with little content posts are defeating the purpose of posting, you know.

---

I believe that right now, and for the ENTIRE existence of the human race, people have made decisions purely on the goal to be happy. I make every decision based on what will make me the happiest, but I have many friends and I would like to think that I am not a terrible person. Why? How can I make every decision based on my happiness, and not become a jerk like you have described? I will tell you. I know that if I was a jerk and ignored favours and debts, people would not like me. <<<<I also know myself well enough to know that I am happy when people like me.>>>> So, by being a good person an earning respect I am happier than if I was a complete asshole.

Yeah, I was just going to say that before reading Tanner's post, doing what makes you happy is not the best option. For example, I'm really mad at a person, so mad I want to kill him, killing him is the best option for me at the moment, which will make me the happiest. Therefore, I kill the person. Do you think that is right? No. So I guess you are just not right about your statement.

Would killing the person <<<<you>>>> are mad at REALLY make <<<<you the happiest>>>>? <<<<I>>>> would not kill a person I was mad at because it would make <<<<me>>>> unhappy. You guys really need to think before you right these things. Do you guys not think about consequences? Assuming that killing the person makes you happier, does it succeed all the unhappiness that comes from it? Going to jail and all the hate that killing people brings, just off the top of my head, makes it a bad decision. This next part is very important - People do make mistakes. I have not always picked the best decision, the decision that makes me the most happy. I have always tried, but I have not always chosen correctly. As you grow and learn though, you can make better decisions.

As for people not believing in things that make them unhappy, what about atheists? If we consider belief to be synonymous with position here (because 1:I don't think this affects your point, and 2:atheism is not necessarily a belief) then most atheists hold a position which may make them quite unhappy, afraid or lonely. Yet they remain atheists. This might be because they value truth, or because they don't have conscious control over their belief, or because they have a negative view of organised religion, or for any number of possible reasons. But there's your case, people who hold a position which makes them unhappy.

Thank you for saying this... thank you very much. First, let us talk about a very well known person named Socrates. Socrates was once held to trial by the town, because well... pretty much he pissed them all off and was teaching the youngins bad things in the opinion of the towns people. Was what he was teaching to the youth actually wrong? Well, in the opinion of the entire town, it was wrong, but Socrates thought he was right. Now, some serious arguing was thrown down by good old Socrates, but in the end it was pretty obvious that he was going to end up in the slammer. He knew where it was headed and he said something to the lines of, "Someone might wonder why I would continue standing by my opinion/ideal/belief when it means that I will be arrested. (Remember that I am paraphrasing quite a bit because I only remember the general idea. Now back to Socrates) I stand by my belief because it is important, and I know I am right. You can put me in jail, but there are more like me out in the world. You will not be able to throw them all in jail." So off to jail he went. Later his students tried to break him out and would have succeeded if Socrates had not refused to go. So why would Socrates be willing to go and then stay in jail? Obviously, he was happier supporting what he believed to be right, then he was not supporting his belief. The consequence was jail, which is a negative, but he believed that supporting his belief was more positive than the jail thing. He did all this because this is what made him the happiest. Everyone is different. We all need to decide for ourselves when the positives outweigh the negatives. When is supporting our beliefs less important than the consequence? It really depends on the situation. As for me, I would not go to jail to support my belief and I would definitely not die to support my belief... usually. It really depends on the situation, and what belief you are supporting or not supporting. The point is supporting your beliefs makes you happy. Supporting a belief is one out of many things that make people happy. To make the best decision, you must think of the good and the bad, then finally, decide which option will make you the happiest.

Your argument overlaps with itself. Read the bolded and underlined sentences / words. You will realize that being happy about something is subjective, not objective. Which directly makes your all previous statements false, indeed.

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