Library problem.

[crescor]

Hello,

My mother works in a library, and they had a discussion about a book. The book (sorry, I don't know the name anymore, as soon as I know it I'll update this) is written by a doctor and he writes about easy, unpainful ways to commit euthanasia on your own.
Now they were discussing wheter to buy the book or not.

-If they buy the book, they could be accused of helping people commiting suicide. (They can't check everyone that rents the book, so assume that everyone, including teens in a depression, can rent the book.)
-If they don't buy the book, they're censoring, and as a public library, that's the worst thing they can do (in my opinion).

I think they should buy the book.

What do you guys think?

[Luminaflare]

Do public libraries stock adult materials (Porn etc.)? (Legitimate question)

Either way chances are you wouldn't be in issue with the law since you're just a library, you're not recommending someone who's depressed to buy the book. But I personally wouldn't stock it, it's not censoring to just opt to not order a book till someone asks specifically for it (And then you can obviously ask them why the hell they want a book on how to commit suicide and judge then to order it or not).

Still point stands, it's a book how to commit suicide (Albeit as painless as possible, but still...) and it's not something someone normally wants to read.

[T3chno]

Do public libraries stock adult materials (Porn etc.)? (Legitimate question)

My citys' libraries do not.

[otters~1]

Do public libraries stock adult materials (Porn etc.)? (Legitimate question)

I admit to not reading any more of your post because I started thinking about this and got sidetracked.

I work in a library too, and so does my mother, so I see a large amount of the library material. We have all kinds of romance novels, of course, and a lot of books with graphic covers/drawings (that last, mostly anime), but no "porn."


EDIT: As to censoring, I'm with Vonnegut.

[otters~1]

We have all kinds of romance novels, of course, and a lot of books with graphic covers/drawings (that last, mostly anime), but no "porn."

Just a small thing, the definition of pornography: Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal. Although you may not read romance novels to be sexually aroused they do fit under the "porn" genre. Therefore there is "porn" in the library, however not in the most accepted sense. Furthermore graphic covers/drawings are sexually explicit and as above also classified as "porn."

In that case, most of the adult fiction section (by which I mean all novels tagged F, not just ones bout sex) is porn. However, there certainly aren't any porn magazines.

[Kablizzy]

Much like we're talking about in the Moot speaks at TED thread, there's a difference between freedom of speech and freedom of action. Talking about killing yourself is one thing. Killing yourself is another entirely.

My question comes as this - What kinds of people would read the book, anyway? Wouldn't the first person who rents it never return it, and problem solved?

[crescor]

What kinds of people would read the book, anyway?

I would read the book. Not because I want to kill myself, but because I'm honestly interested in reading that thing.

About porn, it's the same as flag's library, and we have some dvds with pretty explicit covers. Those are not porn dvds though, just non-commercial stuff with occasional sex scenes.

[SlappyMcGee]

If the library is private, they should not carry the book because it would lose customer base and potentially cause a scandal vs. the positive benefits that are minute. If the library is publically funded, it seems contradictory to be against euthanasia and what is essentially handing out books on how to do it. So, in both cases, I say no.

[formica]

Is it a simple how- to guide on Euthanasia? Because there's a much stronger argument for banning it if it is.

Or is it a book about the issue of Euthanasia, written by a doctor who is for it, who mentions several painless methods of committing it- say, in the context of saying "Euthanasia is sometimes necessary. AND IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO HURT: See methods b, c and f." In that case the whole censorship thing starts carrying a lot more weight...

[crescor]

Is it a simple how- to guide on Euthanasia? Because there's a much stronger argument for banning it if it is.

Or is it a book about the issue of Euthanasia, written by a doctor who is for it, who mentions several painless methods of committing it- say, in the context of saying "Euthanasia is sometimes necessary. AND IT DOESN'T EVEN HAVE TO HURT: See methods b, c and f." In that case the whole censorship thing starts carrying a lot more weight...

No, it's not just a simple how - to book, ofcourse.
It's more about why people would want to do it, how they usually do it on themselves and in which ways they can make the process easier and less painful.

[Luminaflare]

To re-iterate, you do realise you're arguing over a How-to kill your self guide right?

[otters~1]

To re-iterate, you do realise you're arguing over a How-to kill your self guide right?

Pretty sure that's exactly what we're /not/ talking about. Sounds like a reasonable, scientific book that gives opinions from both sides ... but can we have a link or at least a title, crescor?

[scythe]

Dunno. Would the same library carry PiHKAL? If so (i.e., library contains odd books), sure. Otherwise, they should probably only get it if someone requests it, though I don't think that person is likely to bring it back.

[Kablizzy]

Do they have the Anarchist's Cookbook?

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Y'know, I could easily picture a library policy that gives preference to books of academic or literary interest, and refusing to stock... darker books like those mentioned on the grounds that they are a niche interest. The purpose of a library, after all, is to collect books for the education of the public, and the public doesn't stand to gain much from including sketchier books. So it could be that those sorts of books are just super-low on the priority queue.

[crescor]

The book is called 'uitweg' by Boudewijn Chabot. It's only in dutch (so far), but my translation of the title would be 'a way out'.
Chabot is a well-known dutch doctor, known for his knowledge in euthanasia. So the book probably isn't just a suicide guide, but more scientifically orientated. I reserved the book, I'll read it and I'll let you know what's in there.

Tsukatu wrote:
So it could be that those sorts of books are just super-low on the priority queue.

Yea, that's true, and I have no idea how they stumbled upon this book. Perhaps it was requested by someone, I don't know. I'll ask that.

About the anarchist cookbook and that PiHKaL thing, I have no clue. I don't think they exist in dutch, and since it's a dutch library chanches are low that I'll find the book, but I'll check it.

Also, the library just bought the book, but they are going to do some sort of check-up before giving the book to the person that wants to borrow it. Although I think that's stupid, because it wont work.

[SlappyMcGee]

Y'know, I could easily picture a library policy that gives preference to books of academic or literary interest, and refusing to stock... darker books like those mentioned on the grounds that they are a niche interest. The purpose of a library, after all, is to collect books for the education of the public, and the public doesn't stand to gain much from including sketchier books. So it could be that those sorts of books are just super-low on the priority queue.

This is how I feel exactly. Especially with the internet these days; niche interest books on killing your crippled grandfather can be acquired from Amazon rather than trying to funnel it through a public service.

[otters~1]

Also, the library just bought the book, but they are going to do some sort of check-up before giving the book to the person that wants to borrow it. Although I think that's stupid, because it wont work.

Woah. You mean like a background check? Is that even legal?

[crescor]

Probably just looking at the previous books they rented and just by the first impression they make, I don't know.
It's not like they can refuse people to borrow books either, I think.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

The book is called 'uitweg' by Boudewijn Chabot. It's only in dutch (so far), but my translation of the title would be 'a way out'.
Chabot is a well-known dutch doctor, known for his knowledge in euthanasia. So the book probably isn't just a suicide guide, but more scientifically orientated.

I haven't read this, obviously, but it seems to me that it'd be more appropriate in the library of a medical school or something. The most obvious application of it as a medical interest that I can think of is merciful methods of execution for criminals.
Although, y'know, I've pretty much got that figured out already. But that's the subject of another / past threads.

[Tanner]

The library that attracts my patronage stocks a book of some of the most notable assassins of all time and how (allegedly) they did what they did. It was an interesting breakfast read but just because I read about John Wilkes Booth and his method doesn't make me any more likely to kill Barack Obama. I think that the standard decision-making process for a library acquiring a book would be the best way to proceed. Also, considering this is a dutch book, in 2002, the Netherlands legalized euthanasia so I really don't see why this book should have any special stigma attached to it. At least for the purpose of deciding if and how the library should stock it, it should be examined in the same way that all other books are.

[crescor]

That's actually how I think about it.

I read the Anarchist's Cookbook, but I'm not going to blow up some cars or kill people. (Also, we don't have that book in the library)

Euthanasia is legal in Holland (and in Belgium, where I live), but you have to do it following strict rules. (with a doctor and stuff..) The book gives tips on how you can do it yourself, easy and painless. That's not the legal way though, so there's the stigma.
I still haven't read the book, so I can't give a detailed description of what it says, but as soon as I read it I'll let you know.

[SkyPanda]

"-If they don't buy the book, they're censoring, and as a public library, that's the worst thing they can do (in my opinion)."

If the book is informative, but not instructive*, then failing to stock it (when asked or pressed) would be censorship. However, it wouldn't be as bad a censoring a book called "Politics, law and the goverment: a basic guide". When it comes to censorship, I really feel discretion and a pragmatic attitude are great things to have.

*If euthanasia is illegal and the book is instructive then by law the library probably wouldn't be allowed to stock the book

[crescor]

The methods described in the book are probably illegal (because there's no doctor involved and you can easily do it yourself, according to what I've heard). But because the book explains how to do something that is illegal, it doesn't mean it's illegal to read/rent/sell/borrow it. I think.

I'm sure that every book in this country is legal. With books I mean just words, not pictures, because I can imagine having child pornography in book form (with pictures) is pretty illegal.

Edit:
Here is my translation of a description of the book.

For the first time there is information available in the bookstore for people that want to die in dignity, surrounded by their closest relatives. A part of them has asked multiple times to get euthanasia, but they were refused. Euthanasia is only given by a doctor when the patient fulfills the legal demands and his personal conscience. With 'self-euthanasia' the patient can make his own dignified death. It might seem impossible, but this comprehensive guide for a dignified death shows that it doesn't have to be impossible, and adds a new way in the discussion about euthanasia.

If anyone wants the original text, although I doubt you'll find it usefull: http://www.eenwaardiglevenseinde.nl/

Edit 2: My translation might be crap

[Zilla]

Here is my translation of a description of the book.

For the first time there is information available in the bookstore for people that want to die in dignity, surrounded by their closest relatives. A part of them has asked multiple times to get euthanasia, but they were refused. Euthanasia is only given by a doctor when the patient fulfills the legal demands and his personal conscience. With 'self-euthanasia' the patient can make his own dignified death. It might seem impossible, but this comprehensive guide for a dignified death shows that it doesn't have to be impossible, and adds a new way in the discussion about euthanasia.

If anyone wants the original text, although I doubt you'll find it usefull: http://www.eenwaardiglevenseinde.nl/

Edit 2: My translation might be crap

My opinion depends on the accuracy of your translation. That description seems to target the book squarely at people who want to euthanize themselves. If that's the case, I wouldn't support a library stocking it, because it seems to go beyond a purely objective informational purpose and heads into "suicide manual" territory. If, however, the description is actually more passive in its original text, I might support such a book being stocked in a library, albeit I think it'd have to be specifically requested first.

So I guess my opinion fits in with the other opinions first. Although scythe and Kablizzy have a point, since there's a good chance the book would just never be returned.