Preaching Atheism
- Depressing
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I'm Atheist. I go to a Christian school. So naturally encounter a lot of Christians. I have, on a number of occasions, ended up in a debate over religion. However, I always seem to lose, even though I'm on the winning side. They have a whole lot of cards that they play that I can't rebut... they're often quite absurd, but anyway. Do any of you have any good ways of winning a religious debate / good structures for argument that you use to bait them and then crush their ideals?
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- Yes sir, no sir, three bags full sir
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Example?Universezero wrote:They have a whole lot of cards that they play that I can't rebut...
Last edited by otters on 2010.09.07 (19:05), edited 1 time in total.

- Demon Fisherman
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If there is one thing that I learnt in my time at a religious school (Anglican), it's don't even bother. From my experiance, a vast majority of religious teens are so stubbon and petty that you /can't/ argue with them. :/
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Or you could refrain from "preaching" at all, because a lot of enmity towards religion that doesn't stem from a lack of rationale stems from evangelicality. These arguments are ultimately not an introduction to concepts and ideas, anyway, but an exercise in extreme adamancy, for either side. It doesn't matter if you're right - they're as stubborn and rooted into their convictions as you are. Put your pride aside.
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Yahoozy's absolutely right: Progressive social movements have taken their greatest strides when opposing parties never encountered their message, and were left instead to develop those views independently. Segregation, for example, was only ever set further back by the assertiveness of Martin Luther King, Jr., Malcom X, et al. Women's voting and property ownership rights were similarly won by passionless, timid silence, when the compassionate and equitable nature of rich white men led them to spearhead the feminist reformations that granted women the rights they enjoy today. When you allow people's indoctrination to simmer and receive constant reinforcement from society, critical evaluation of the principles (or lackthereof) behind them will totally ever happen at all with meaningful frequency.Yahoozy wrote:Or you could refrain from "preaching" at all, because a lot of enmity towards religion that doesn't stem from a lack of rationale stems from evangelicality. These arguments are ultimately not an introduction to concepts and ideas, anyway, but an exercise in extreme adamancy, for either side. It doesn't matter if you're right - they're as stubborn and rooted into their convictions as you are. Put your pride aside.
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]


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Right, because Martin Luther King Jr. working to tear down social barriers in a forum where his activism could be adequately argued and progressed has the same passion and understanding held by highschoolers preaching to other highschoolers about a matter that has little to do with morality and ethics and all to do with individual perception. Interesting point, though, as I can come full circle here: That argument is as useful and level-headed as the ones being thrown among highschoolers on the subject of religion.
EDIT: Let me make my point here clear - I'm not saying you shouldn't introduce your classmates to your thinking. This isn't a case of argue v. keep everything to yourself, rather introduce v. rebut. Passion for concepts and ideas, especially ones met by rationale, observation, and true understanding, should be preserved, and those ideas should be studied and explored endlessly. Arguing against something with what little you have is not the only option, though, nor is it the most viable one. You can develop ideas without preaching them to naysayers, and I'd recommend doing so when those naysayers have so little interest in being argued against. I'm all for altruism of ideas and thinking - that's a concept that is apparent to us everyday. At our fingertips is more information than ever before, and to attain that only takes the smallest bit of curiosity and open-mindedness, things I've only seen as my classmates not having. Openness may be more commonplace in areas that aren't in the Bible Belt, but here I've learned to keep ideas there for the taking, for people to become curious about, not to take it upon myself to preach them.
EDIT: Let me make my point here clear - I'm not saying you shouldn't introduce your classmates to your thinking. This isn't a case of argue v. keep everything to yourself, rather introduce v. rebut. Passion for concepts and ideas, especially ones met by rationale, observation, and true understanding, should be preserved, and those ideas should be studied and explored endlessly. Arguing against something with what little you have is not the only option, though, nor is it the most viable one. You can develop ideas without preaching them to naysayers, and I'd recommend doing so when those naysayers have so little interest in being argued against. I'm all for altruism of ideas and thinking - that's a concept that is apparent to us everyday. At our fingertips is more information than ever before, and to attain that only takes the smallest bit of curiosity and open-mindedness, things I've only seen as my classmates not having. Openness may be more commonplace in areas that aren't in the Bible Belt, but here I've learned to keep ideas there for the taking, for people to become curious about, not to take it upon myself to preach them.
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Yeah, it is weird to think that anyone who has tried to change social norms would have asked like-minded peers for advice or opinions.Yahoozy wrote:Right, because Martin Luther King Jr. working to tear down social barriers in a forum where his activism could be adequately argued and progressed has the same passion and understanding held by highschoolers preaching to other highschoolers about a matter that has little to do with morality and ethics and all to do with individual perception.

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Don't focus so much on proving yourself right, and you'll find it easier to argue. Focus on reaching an understanding.
You don't need to try to lead them towards atheism; changing one's belief system is a process, and a difficult one at that. If you don't understand what you're asking them to do, it's hard to make them do it. There's something to be said for being confrontational, though, as long as you have your facts straight. Suki's pamphet is a good place to start.
And, really, you may not exactly be old enough to preach. It takes some finesse.
You don't need to try to lead them towards atheism; changing one's belief system is a process, and a difficult one at that. If you don't understand what you're asking them to do, it's hard to make them do it. There's something to be said for being confrontational, though, as long as you have your facts straight. Suki's pamphet is a good place to start.
And, really, you may not exactly be old enough to preach. It takes some finesse.
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For those of you interested in activism, particularly in activating effectively:
What Atheists Can Learn from the LGBT Movement (~1 hour talk)
What Atheists Can Learn from the LGBT Movement (~1 hour talk)
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]


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Alternatively, I'd like to tell the local LGBT segment to stop taking out full ads in my uni's paper.T̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư wrote:What Atheists Can Learn from the LGBT Movement
I'm going to agree with hoozy based on the following:
No one likes to be told their wrong, no one likes repeatedly being told they were wrong, no one likes someone who continually spouts off their beliefs (even if you agree with them), etc. I don't really care what your belief system is, when I do care is when you try to lord it on me (change schools?). That is when I start going 'shut up, go away.'

Tycho: "I don't know why people ever, ever try to stop nerds from doing things. It's really the most incredible waste of time."
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I think that's just plain untrue. I've read many a testimony from people who were led to a critical re-evaluation of their silly beliefs because they heard them being ridiculed. The important thing to note there, though, is that these people are largely the audience when these beliefs were ridiculed, and not the target thereof.smartalco wrote:No one likes to be told their wrong, no one likes repeatedly being told they were wrong, no one likes someone who continually spouts off their beliefs (even if you agree with them), etc.
Different people are predisposed to different methods of reforming their opinions.
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]


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This is so true. This is so, so true. A large part of me "conversion" was due to reading suki attack incluye in the PnD forum. Reading Asimov's Beginnings gave me the balls to say that I'm an agnostic. That pamphlet just may move me from there, but I'm not sure yet.T̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư wrote:I think that's just plain untrue. I've read many a testimony from people who were led to a critical re-evaluation of their silly beliefs because they heard them being ridiculed. The important thing to note there, though, is that these people are largely the audience when these beliefs were ridiculed, and not the target thereof.smartalco wrote:No one likes to be told their wrong, no one likes repeatedly being told they were wrong, no one likes someone who continually spouts off their beliefs (even if you agree with them), etc.
Different people are predisposed to different methods of reforming their opinions.
EDIT: I linked that pamphlet to a friend on Facebook. Now she says she's losing faith in "that religion". I'm not entirely sure how I feel right now.

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It begins!
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]


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You could see if you have better luck with the Socratic Method. Rather than focusing on responding to each bit of propaganda that the person you're speaking with puts forth, keeping asking them questions about their beliefs until obvious holes pop up. Memorize a few key Bible verses that you can throw in for good measure. Suki's made a lot of good posts in PnD. Not to toot my own horn but this is also a good thread: http://forum.droni.es/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6490

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Seeing as how I've never lost a religious debate, I would suggest very strongly looking into logic and conceptual debate theory at college. Also tell Christians that they smell like poo.

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"Because the bible has a lot of quite specific verses," (and I have seen many of them) "to support this view over other Christian views, and because the bible alone, as a religious text, has been kept essentially unmodified over the years. We still have original documents, we have archaeological evidence," etc.Maybe my favorite question to ask for this kind of thing is "why are you a (specific brand of Christian) as opposed to (some other religion)?"
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e.g. Why do you believe the Bible but reject the Quran?DemonzLunchBreak wrote:That's not what I meant. Clearer version: Why (religion of other party in the debate) over (every other religion)?
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]


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This is a favourite argument of mine, but like anything else it's not terribly (or at all) effective if the other party doesn't want to listen. I used it on a street preacher recently and he responded by half ignoring it and half claiming that the Bible in fact does make utterly undisputable predictions. I of course asked for evidence and tried to dispute this but he would have none of it.T̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư wrote:e.g. Why do you believe the Bible but reject the Quran?DemonzLunchBreak wrote:That's not what I meant. Clearer version: Why (religion of other party in the debate) over (every other religion)?
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Being a recovering fundamentalist, this still makes a lot of sense to me. Then again, it's a topic for another debate.yungerkid wrote:"Because the bible has a lot of quite specific verses," (and I have seen many of them) "to support this view over other Christian views, and because the bible alone, as a religious text, has been kept essentially unmodified over the years. We still have original documents, we have archaeological evidence," etc.Maybe my favorite question to ask for this kind of thing is "why are you a (specific brand of Christian) as opposed to (some other religion)?"

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The fact that the Bible has been around for so long and, for the most part, can still impart a lot of valuable moral lessons to readers is quite impressive, but it's hardly any reason to believe in God.
I hope in thousands of years everybody believes in Gatsby.
I hope in thousands of years everybody believes in Gatsby.
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Maybe if it'd been modified a bit over the years it would have less craziness in it now. I would never debate the fact that the bible is a historically impressive collection of fables and stories. I would, however, point out that it's a historically impressive collection of fables and stories.incluye wrote:Being a recovering fundamentalist, this still makes a lot of sense to me. Then again, it's a topic for another debate.yungerkid wrote:"Because the bible has a lot of quite specific verses," (and I have seen many of them) "to support this view over other Christian views, and because the bible alone, as a religious text, has been kept essentially unmodified over the years. We still have original documents, we have archaeological evidence," etc.

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"Thou shalt covet thy neighbor's wife."SłappyMcGee wrote:I hope in thousands of years everybody believes in Gatsby.
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I consider myself agnostic by nature... taking the absolute neutral side of the theist vs. atheist argument. This is not because I don't want to get involved in debates like this, but because I feel that it is impossible to argue a certain way with undeniable proof. If either side could be right, and the other wrong, then why pick a side in the first place? Live life to the fullest, regardless of if that's all I get, or it's just a personality builder for eternity later.
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