Metanet 0ths Thread

http://nmaps.net/user/macrohenry · Postby **macrohenry** » 2014.11.13 (17:28)

ska wrote:I find it somewhat amusing that TRO called it. Although writing baring instead of barring did irk me. I expect a bit of a dogfight over this level.

Also, fairly solid 99 run; however, 99-2 in particular seemed half-baked to me. Were you just trying to improve your episode score, and the 0th was incidental? We're not talking about two or three frames, here; we're talking about wholes seconds. (I hate to sound so negative, but I couldn't help but be a little disappointed by that effort.)

Believe me, I spent about 2 hours on -2 (really!) and lost my patience. Damn that corner kick... Doesn't always work for me. But I wasn't really going for the 0th anyway.

http://nmaps.net/user/ska · Postby **ska** » 2014.11.13 (18:22)

macrohenry wrote:
ska wrote:I find it somewhat amusing that TRO called it. Although writing baring instead of barring did irk me. I expect a bit of a dogfight over this level.

Also, fairly solid 99 run; however, 99-2 in particular seemed half-baked to me. Were you just trying to improve your episode score, and the 0th was incidental? We're not talking about two or three frames, here; we're talking about wholes seconds. (I hate to sound so negative, but I couldn't help but be a little disappointed by that effort.)
Believe me, I spent about 2 hours on -2 (really!) and lost my patience. Damn that corner kick... Doesn't always work for me. But I wasn't really going for the 0th anyway.

haha... that's quite alright. I, too, can vaguely remember it being quite a nuisance to pull off.

http://nmaps.net/user/EddyMataGallos · Postby **EddyMataGallos** » 2014.11.13 (19:39)

ska wrote:I find it somewhat amusing that TRO called it. Although writing baring instead of barring did irk me. I expect a bit of a dogfight over this level.

Also, fairly solid 99 run; however, 99-2 in particular seemed half-baked to me. Were you just trying to improve your episode score, and the 0th was incidental? We're not talking about two or three frames, here; we're talking about wholes seconds. (I hate to sound so negative, but I couldn't help but be a little disappointed by that effort.)

dogfight!
37-1 retaken. Also, you just made it impossible for me to get a 10 second lead on Ep99, I hope you're glad! >:(

ska wrote:I find it somewhat amusing that TRO called it.

The cleanliness standard has indeed risen since then.

http://nmaps.net/user/ska · Postby **ska** » 2014.11.14 (05:30)

EddyMataGallos wrote:
ska wrote:I find it somewhat amusing that TRO called it.
The cleanliness standard has indeed risen since then.

Yes, but macrohenry still only obtained the 0th via an innovation; meaning that TRO's comment was spot on. However, that's not to say your original 0th wasn't invulnerable, even without utilising an innovation...

Of course, your reply to this point seemed ambiguous to me; you may need to clarify/rephrase it for me. Nice run, by the way...

http://nmaps.net/user/EddyMataGallos · Postby **EddyMataGallos** » 2014.11.14 (15:13)

ska wrote:
EddyMataGallos wrote:
ska wrote:I find it somewhat amusing that TRO called it.
The cleanliness standard has indeed risen since then.
Yes, but macrohenry still only obtained the 0th via an innovation; meaning that TRO's comment was spot on. However, that's not to say your original 0th wasn't invulnerable, even without utilising an innovation...

Of course, your reply to this point seemed ambiguous to me; you may need to clarify/rephrase it for me. Nice run, by the way...

Oh sorry, I understand your confusion, since apparently I misinterpreted your answer. I thought you meant that you found it amusing that TRO thought it was so clean, hence my answer. Now I see you meant that his prediction eventually turned out to be right :P (in which case my previous answer made no sense).

http://nmaps.net/user/ska · Postby **ska** » 2014.11.14 (16:27)

EddyMataGallos wrote: Oh sorry, I understand your confusion, since apparently I misinterpreted your answer. I thought you meant that you found it amusing that TRO thought it was so clean, hence my answer. Now I see you meant that his prediction eventually turned out to be right :P (in which case my previous answer made no sense).

Todo Esta Bien.

I assumed it was a misunderstanding :P

http://nmaps.net/user/macrohenry · Postby **macrohenry** » 2014.11.14 (17:58)

Took Ep36, 45-4, 47-4 and 61-3, but the latter is in Eddy's hands again. However, I also did this:

599 Top-4 scores!
That's probably the best I can do. I would need to get the extra frames on 63-4 and 94-2 to be able to get 599 Top-3 scores and I doubt I can do that.

http://nmaps.net/user/therealone · Postby **TheRealOne** » 2014.11.15 (01:59)

macrohenry wrote:Took Ep36, 45-4, 47-4 and 61-3, but the latter is in Eddy's hands again. However, I also did this:
599 Top-4 scores!
That's probably the best I can do. I would need to get the extra frames on 63-4 and 94-2 to be able to get 599 Top-3 scores and I doubt I can do that.

That is insane macro! 599 Top-4s is unreal. True mastery of every level and every episode; through and through. 597 Top-3s might not have the same ring to it as 599, but still damn impressive. Make it happn' cappn'.

Edit: P.S. How many attempts on 47-4 to get the thwump push and the good clip on the corner in the same run?

http://nmaps.net/user/ska · Postby **ska** » 2014.11.15 (02:40)

Wait... we're not including tied 0ths as being ranked 0th? That's a bit weird... I mean, it kind of makes sense if you consider 59-0, but still...

Postby **Hendor** » 2014.11.15 (02:47)

ska wrote:Wait... we're not including tied 0ths as being ranked 0th? That's a bit weird... I mean, it kind of makes sense if you consider 59-0, but still...

Yeah, I would probably count tied 0ths as being rank 0th for Top-3/4/5/whatever purposes. Though by that logic Eddy and macro have 600 Top-20 scores. I guess it's just a matter of how we define it.

In any case, congrats macro! Nice job.

http://nmaps.net/user/ska · Postby **ska** » 2014.11.15 (03:15)

Hendor wrote:
ska wrote:Wait... we're not including tied 0ths as being ranked 0th? That's a bit weird... I mean, it kind of makes sense if you consider 59-0, but still...
Yeah, I would probably count tied 0ths as being rank 0th for Top-3/4/5/whatever purposes. Though by that logic Eddy and macro have 600 Top-20 scores. I guess it's just a matter of how we define it.

In any case, congrats macro! Nice job.

Like I said, 59-0 is a unique case. Applying different logic depending on how the scores are distributed, while reasonable, does paradoxically seem illogical at the same time.

http://nmaps.net/user/therealone · Postby **TheRealOne** » 2014.11.15 (05:01)

ska wrote:
Hendor wrote:
ska wrote:Wait... we're not including tied 0ths as being ranked 0th? That's a bit weird... I mean, it kind of makes sense if you consider 59-0, but still...
Yeah, I would probably count tied 0ths as being rank 0th for Top-3/4/5/whatever purposes. Though by that logic Eddy and macro have 600 Top-20 scores. I guess it's just a matter of how we define it.

In any case, congrats macro! Nice job.
Like I said, 59-0 is a unique case. Applying different logic depending on how the scores are distributed, while reasonable, does paradoxically seem illogical at the same time.

Yeah I suppose it is an odd double standard, but we have always counted tied 0ths as 0th for the various 0th rankings, but for Top-X rankings it has always just been by exact rank after ignoring the hackers and cheaters. I don't think it is a terrible system though; you are given credit in the 0th rankings for tying, but you are "punished" in the Top-X rankings for not being the first, second, third... etc. to tie the 0th. So it is somewhat balanced because there is something special to being the first which the Top-x rankings reflect, and there is the fact of having the top score on a particular map even though multiple people could have that score which the 0th rankings reflect. It is also similar to how Unreality did the speedrun and legit mode highscore boards. A * for being the 0th and a = for matching it, but doing it later in time.

http://nmaps.net/user/EddyMataGallos · Postby **EddyMataGallos** » 2014.11.15 (16:09)

Awesome accomplishment macro! On my part I won't be able to do it, unless 5-2 has some other hidden frame left :P Guess I can shoot for 598.

The top-X scores and overall rank distribution consideration is a bit weird indeed. I can think on at least 3 different ways it could be done:

- The current way.
- The current way, but considering tied 0ths as 0ths for those rankings too.
- Considering all ties for those rankings (i.e., if you are tied for 5th, that would count as a 5th).

Its just a matter of definition. After all, we know at this point this will only happen in framewars/maxable levels, not on regular levels.

Postby **alsojp27ace** » 2014.11.17 (17:02)

That's crazy macro, there are some levels that I doubt I could even top-20.
I definitely find it more fun aiming for 0ths than top-x runs though , even if you/eddy retake it within a day :p
I personally think tied scores should count towards top-x counts as they do with 0ths, even if you still have 59-0 as an exception.

Postby **Hendor** » 2014.11.20 (00:47)

Took 62-2 with an innovation at the start. It doesn't save much time, but I think it's about 10 frames faster, as my run's a bit sloppier than Eddy's.]

EDIT- pushed macro out of Top 4. I seem to be doing that a lot lately :P

http://nmaps.net/user/therealone · Postby **TheRealOne** » 2014.11.20 (01:11)

Hendor wrote:Took 62-2 with an innovation at the start. It doesn't save much time, but I think it's about 10 frames faster, as my run's a bit sloppier than Eddy's.

Got to love those subtle route changes. Very nice time saver.

Postby **Hendor** » 2014.11.20 (01:39)

TheRealOne wrote:Got to love those subtle route changes.

Thanks. I suppose that's what it comes down to these days.

Edit - Improved a bit... I went through like 8 different routes on this level. Think this is the best one though. 1.025 over Eddy's 0th.

https://www.nmaps.net/user/nadroj347 · Postby **nadroj347** » 2014.11.20 (08:03)

That's a pretty huge innovation there! Eddy probably won't let that lie still without a fight :P

http://nmaps.net/user/ska · Postby **ska** » 2014.11.20 (08:26)

Hendor wrote:
TheRealOne wrote:Got to love those subtle route changes.
Thanks. I suppose that's what it comes down to these days.

Edit - Improved a bit... I went through like 8 different routes on this level. Think this is the best one though. 1.025 over Eddy's 0th.

I saw your 159.550 run and thought there was an even faster route you could try. Then you found this. I think you've found the optimal route; however, it looks like you could squeeze a bit more through cleaning. (Your 159.550 had a much more polished start, for instance.)

Postby **Hendor** » 2014.11.20 (08:58)

ska wrote:I saw your 159.550 run and thought there was an even faster route you could try. Then you found this. I think you've found the optimal route; however, it looks like you could squeeze a bit more through cleaning. (Your 159.550 had a much more polished start, for instance.)

Yep. Highest I've got missing gold is .625, so I don't expect to keep the run as it is.

For the record, my first run, 159.350 used this start, which is pretty slick, but only saves time if you enter the bottom left from the top:

$###50111000000000000000000001150000000000000000000015000000000000000000000500000000000000000000000000000021100000000000000000000021000000000000000000000020002110000000000211000000002100000000000210000000002000000000000200000000000000000000000000000000000300000000000000030000031100000003000003100003110000000310000311000000000000031100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000021100000002110000000000021000000002110000000000020000300002000000000000000031000000000000000000003110000000000000300000000000000000000031000000000000000000003110000000000211000000000000000300000210010000000000031000000200000040000003110000000000000140000000000000000000001140000000000000000040011100000000000000000|5^72,48!8^204,492,1!8^612,516,1!8^492,540,0!8^444,540,2!8^324,564,0!8^276,564,2!8^756,564,3!8^756,180,1!8^36,156,1!8^36,564,3!8^36,540,0!8^156,444,2!8^36,420,0!8^108,300,2!8^708,300,0!11^732,84,384,468!0^156,468!0^132,468!0^108,468!0^84,468!0^60,468!0^60,492!0^60,516!0^84,516!0^108,516!0^132,516!0^156,516!0^156,492!0^132,492!0^108,492!0^84,492!0^180,492!0^180,516!0^228,492!0^228,516!0^420,516!0^396,516!0^372,516!0^348,516!0^348,492!0^372,492!0^396,492!0^420,492!0^636,516!0^660,516!0^684,516!0^708,516!0^732,516!0^708,324!0^732,324!0^732,276!0^708,276!12^768,492!12^768,396!12^768,300!12^768,204!12^24,204!12^24,300!12^24,396!12^24,492!0^336,168!0^240,192!0^312,336!0^168,288!0^216,432!0^288,504!0^480,480!0^648,456!0^648,288!0^504,360!0^480,240!0^576,144!8^588,564,2!8^660,564,0#319:35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35808878|35791394|35791394|35791394|2236962|17895680|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|89478493|107365717|107374182|107374182|9830|0|35651584|35791394|139810|35790848|35791394|35791394|48374306|2|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|17895697|219222289|89478485|89478485|89478485|89478485|35651925|35791394|0|544|0#

And the second, the 159.550, uses the normal start and enters the bottom left from the bottom, just like my current run, but exited the bottom-left at the top like this:

$###50111000000000000000000001150000000000000000000015000000000000000000000500000000000000000000000000000021100000000000000000000021000000000000000000000020002110000000000211000000002100000000000210000000002000000000000200000000000000000000000000000000000300000000000000030000031100000003000003100003110000000310000311000000000000031100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000021100000002110000000000021000000002110000000000020000300002000000000000000031000000000000000000003110000000000000300000000000000000000031000000000000000000003110000000000211000000000000000300000210010000000000031000000200000040000003110000000000000140000000000000000000001140000000000000000040011100000000000000000|5^72,48!8^204,492,1!8^612,516,1!8^492,540,0!8^444,540,2!8^324,564,0!8^276,564,2!8^756,564,3!8^756,180,1!8^36,156,1!8^36,564,3!8^36,540,0!8^156,444,2!8^36,420,0!8^108,300,2!8^708,300,0!11^732,84,384,468!0^156,468!0^132,468!0^108,468!0^84,468!0^60,468!0^60,492!0^60,516!0^84,516!0^108,516!0^132,516!0^156,516!0^156,492!0^132,492!0^108,492!0^84,492!0^180,492!0^180,516!0^228,492!0^228,516!0^420,516!0^396,516!0^372,516!0^348,516!0^348,492!0^372,492!0^396,492!0^420,492!0^636,516!0^660,516!0^684,516!0^708,516!0^732,516!0^708,324!0^732,324!0^732,276!0^708,276!12^768,492!12^768,396!12^768,300!12^768,204!12^24,204!12^24,300!12^24,396!12^24,492!0^336,168!0^240,192!0^312,336!0^168,288!0^216,432!0^288,504!0^480,480!0^648,456!0^648,288!0^504,360!0^480,240!0^576,144!8^588,564,2!8^660,564,0#906:35791394|35791394|35791394|115483170|107374182|35791398|35791394|35791394|35791394|17891330|17895697|17895697|17895889|17895697|35791360|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|16777218|17895697|17895697|89478609|89478485|89478485|69909|35791392|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|8738|17895680|17895697|1118481|35792576|0|35791394|2|16777216|17895697|219222289|89478485|1|17895680|273|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|71614464|35791462|35791394|35791394|17891328|17895697|107234497|107374182|36071014|107374306|107374182|35791462|35791394|35791394|16785954|33554433|35791394|35792610|2236962|69632|35651584|35791394|139810|0|22872064|17895697|35791361|16785954|17895697|219222289|107741461|35791462|35791394|2236962|17825792|17895697|1|35791392|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|35791394|237117986|107374182|107374182|107374182|35791398|89440258|89478485|89478485|18175317|22401297|17895697|17895697|107397137|107374182|107374182|107374182|107374182|107374182|40265318|107880994|107374182|107374182|73819750|89980928|89478485|89478485|89478485|89478485|17895765|17895697|4369#

http://nmaps.net/user/ska · Postby **ska** » 2014.11.20 (10:57)

Interesting... I've just achieved a .775 run with two missing en route pieces of gold. (i.e. would have been 160.775)

Postby **alsojp27ace** » 2014.11.20 (15:37)

Very nice route change Hendor, taken but I expect I'll get some competition from you/eddy.
Made a slight change to the bottom left but it was more out of ease of execution than actual time saving.

http://nmaps.net/user/ska · Postby **ska** » 2014.11.20 (16:07)

alsojp27ace wrote:Very nice route change Hendor, taken but I expect I'll get some competition from you/eddy.
Made a slight change to the bottom left but it was more out of ease of execution than actual time saving.

Oohh, that's clever! I just wish there was an easier way to get all of that gold on the left. I'm sick of getting through with a missed piece. Since this community think tank is going so swimmingly, I'm going to just chill out for a bit and watch the route nuances get ironed out.

http://nmaps.net/user/macrohenry · Postby **macrohenry** » 2014.11.20 (16:15)

Nice route change, Hendor. I just wanted to write "Taken", but then I saw jp's run, haha. :D

TheRealOne wrote:On another note 75-1 is such annoying map because it is a 1400+ frame run, but only the last 150 frames matter at all. I would love to see what could be done in optimal pathing with the left side using CWJs and the like to beat the drone cycle.

Taken. ;)

http://nmaps.net/user/ska · Postby **ska** » 2014.11.20 (17:04)

macrohenry wrote:Nice route change, Hendor. I just wanted to write "Taken", but then I saw jp's run, haha. :D

TheRealOne wrote:On another note 75-1 is such annoying map because it is a 1400+ frame run, but only the last 150 frames matter at all. I would love to see what could be done in optimal pathing with the left side using CWJs and the like to beat the drone cycle.
Taken. ;)

I'd watch out if I were you. Eddy has a very particular set of skills; skills he has acquired over a very long career. If you let him take it back, that will be the end of it. He will not look for you, he will not pursue you. But if you don't, he will look for you, he will find you, and he will kill you.

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