Reason of Life

[jean-luc]

What right, then, does he have to declare youngerkid a sinner? By his own logic, he is damned. It's the damned damning the damned, it seems.

Throughout suki's post, he seems very confident of the properties and divinity of this god that he doesn't believe in.

[乳头的早餐谷物]

What right, then, does he have to declare youngerkid a sinner? By his own logic, he is damned. It's the damned damning the damned, it seems.

Throughout suki's post, he seems very confident of the properties and divinity of this god that he doesn't believe in.

That's because yungerkid is a Christian while Suki is not.

[jean-luc]

Ah, but then we must argue the semantics of 'christian.'
Many gnostics are Christians - they believe in Jesus as a path to Bythos, and thus salvation. I don't see why Youngerkid could not have a similar belief system, particularly if there's a possibility of evading the afterlife through Jesus.

[yungerkid]

@tsukatu: lol butts

everyone else: i'm not agnostic. i think suki was just assuming that my beliefs were correct for the sake of the argument. he was trying to say that not only is my faith illogical, but my beliefs within my faith are also illogical.

also @tsukatu: i agree with you about Heaven. it would be better to go to Heaven than to not exist. and i do think that not having an afterlife is possible with Christianity. it's not going to happen though. when i examine my wishes for the afterlife with my Christian faith in mind, i see that they are truly just wishes. i know one thing though. my (sub-)purpose of gaining knowledge will remain no matter what.

Please stop making a mockery of the word "theory"...

i was stating that my view of things had a theory *behind* it. i was not stating the theory behind it. there is a theory behind it. i acknowledge that what i was saying earlier was not the theory. as you yourself said (correctly), it was an

afterthought

Ha!
You... you couldn't have...

i don't know what you're referring to, but i would never have said that i don't have a reason for what i believe in (unless i was referring to my Christian faith). i also never used logic to address nonexistence. as i said earlier, lol butts. and i mean it.

Objective truth is not going to come from tossing words around without considering them, and neither will it be arbitrarily decided.

...are you saying that i just all of a sudden decided my whole belief system arbitrarily and didn't have any reason at all behind it? lol butts.

therefore the two couldn't possibly be complementary.

calm down, tsukatu. i agree with you on this issue. you don't need to raise it. i was not saying that they were complementary. what i mean by "reconcile" was that i could hopefully find a way that they would both be true.

xy statements, How fucking dare you call yourself a Christian?

i never said that God made reality. quote it if you think i did. Heaven *is* slavery. that does not contradict the Bible. i never said that i believed i could escape existence. indeed, i remember saying that if i knew there was a way to escape existence, i would already have taken it. when did i say that being in His presence was something to be avoided? i don't think that. and i'm fairly sure i never said it.

...oh and by the way, i did not just blaspheme the Holy Spirit. do you know what the Holy Spirit's role within the church is? i did not say that the Holy Spirit could not accomplish its role, did i? good.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Note that the fundamental belief of Gnosticism is that God is flawed, and thus he either cannot or will not protect us from the reality which He failed to make perfect.

yungerkid is not Gnostic.
One.

Mark 3:29: "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
And you, my friend, have done just that: you have claimed that you know better than God.

Put frankly, this is entirely dependent on whether or not your God exists.

yungerkid believes his God exists.
Two.

if Youngerkid is right, he's going to be the only one of us to come anywhere near achieving Gnosis (the knowledge of, and thus salvation through, Bythos, the true god), I'd reckon.

yungerkid is not Gnostic. In fact, he's said multiple times that this is his own belief that he's "developed."
Three.

Certainly closer than you - your attitude will keep you locked in this feeble imitation of the higher plane forever.

I don't care; I'm not Gnostic.
Four.

And a friendly reminder on tolerance: You know why there are very few Gnostics in the modern age?
because they were virtually all brutally killed during the crusades.

There is currently no crusade against Gnostics. Either way, I'm not trying to kill yungerkid.
Five.

That's five consecutive statements that are completely irrelevant. :/

So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Judge not, that ye be not judged

Hesitate to hand out damnation, Tsukatu. Are you prepared to stand before the judgement bar of God?

I'm not Christian; Bible verses are not going to influence whether or not I judge people.
Heck, I've even criticized the lessons the Bible teaches on multiple occasions, and I'm fairly certain you've seen me do it, so I have no idea why you thought throwing Bible verses at me would work.
I've said this before, and I'll say it again -- I am a peer to yungerkid, and therefore in a position to judge. I don't see how Jesus' version is sane in the slightest.

What right, then, does he have to declare youngerkid a sinner? By his own logic, he is damned. It's the damned damning the damned, it seems.

I am intensely confused.
Being damned does not preclude me from identifying any others who are damned. When the Bible gives clear instructions on how to get to Heaven, and even tells you exactly what would damn you forever, then anyone with an ounce of reading comprehension "has the right" to identify someone who is damned.
Where exactly are you getting these silly ideas?

Throughout suki's post, he seems very confident of the properties and divinity of this god that he doesn't believe in.

"The heathen knows his Bible best."
Dude, this is even the heart of Tsukatu's Bible challenge -- read the Bible cover-to-cover and remain a Christian. Like... think of what you're saying as you're saying it. Everything you've said here is either completely irrelevant or just plain nonsensical. C'mon, you're better than this.

-----

Now that I've read yungerkid's post...
I don't think I'm going to have the patience to continue arguing this to any degree of seriousness. You completely ignored the meat of my response, ineffectually tackled some tangential points, and even misinterpreted my intention in your aside to the rest of the readers in this thread, to boot. Anything I'd say would likely just be restating everything I've said in my last post to you, and I really don't want to get into a vicious circle of repeating the same thing over and over until you finally understand what I'm saying.
If you're interested in continuing, for the stimulation and development of your brain thetans or whatever the shit you said, give me a workable response to my last post to you, and I will try in earnest to be as explicit as I can so there are fewer misunderstandings. Otherwise, just for the record, I think you're severely misguided and extremely insensible, and we'll leave it at that. Just assume that I'm going to have very low expectations for any input you may have to offer on any serious subject.

[blackson]

Glad to see everyone enjoying talking about this. My most popular topic.

Probably because your posting everytime someone else does.

I have a pulse, and I'm fine not thinking about why. Leave that up to whoever/whatever put me here, if anyone.

[jackass]

My Oppinion - There isnt a reason of life. "It Just Is", "We Just Are"

[yungerkid]

jean-luc brought up Gnosticism as a possible way to reconcile my statements with Christianity. he wasn't trying to say that i was a gnostic. thus, it wasn't irrelevant.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again -- I am a peer to yungerkid, and therefore in a position to judge.

i agree with this. as a peer, you do have the right to critique and judge me based on my ideas and philosophies. you do not, however, have the right to make the decision that i am going to Hell. according to Christianity, God and God alone has the right to make that decision. so whether or not you believe in Christianity, you should not disrespect me by claiming to have the final say. you say that the damned have the right to identify others who are damned, but the final decision still rests with God. humans do not hand out justice; we are imperfect. God is perfect justice....blah blah blah, you know it all. of course, if i am obviously paying no heed to God or His commandments and am blaspheming the Spirit and the Father all the time, then you can know me by my fruit, as it were. but (within Christianity) you do not have the right to give a direct and conclusive judgment to me. outside of Christianity, you can respect my rights within my religion.

yes, that was a half-hearted response. i think i'm finished arguing this as well. it's not even too clear what the subject was. yes, i ignored the meat of your response, and i knew it. i'm not interested in continuing.

[blue_tetris]

i agree with this. as a peer, you do have the right to critique and judge me based on my ideas and philosophies. you do not, however, have the right to make the decision that i am going to Hell. according to Christianity, God and God alone has the right to make that decision.

Right.

But didn't God give some guidelines on what keeps you out of Hell in the Bible?

I mean, if people aren't allowed to know what keeps them out of Hell, then God is just sending people to Hell without giving them a fair chance. I don't think God would do that. I think God would allow humans to know the things not to do that would land them in Hell.

If God gave humans a chance to stay out of Hell, then Suki has a chance of knowing what might put you into Hell. Either God's a jerk or He gave you (and Suki) the knowledge you'd need to avoid His (otherwise inevitable) torture.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

jean-luc brought up Gnosticism as a possible way to reconcile my statements with Christianity. he wasn't trying to say that i was a gnostic. thus, it wasn't irrelevant.

No, he brought up Gnosticism as a way of describing the entirety of your beliefs. Sort of.
The reconciliation bit didn't come into the discussion 'til well after he tried unsuccessfully to force-feed you the word "Gnostic."

as a peer, you do have the right to critique and judge me based on my ideas and philosophies. you do not, however, have the right to make the decision that i am going to Hell. according to Christianity, God and God alone has the right to make that decision. so whether or not you believe in Christianity, you should not disrespect me by claiming to have the final say.

Wh-- I'm not!
I obviously don't have any authority invested in me to damn someone. It doesn't even make sense for me to try to damn you because I don't believe in the whole system of beliefs that would allow it in the first place. I am identifying, pointing out, referring... not mandating. commanding, or deciding.

Here's what's happening:
God: "If you say 'asparagus', you will never be forgiven and will be damned eternally to Hell."
yungerkid: "Asparagus."
Tsukatu: "God said you'd be damned if you say that."
yungerkid: "YOU ARE NOT GOD YOU ARE NOT GOD YOU ARE NOT GOD YOU ARE NOT GOD"
I know.
If God says you won't be forgiven if you blaspheme, and you blaspheme, then what the hell is wrong with me informing you that you won't be forgiven? It isn't me that will be holding back forgiveness, but God. It isn't me making the rules. But I still know you won't be forgiven. Know how I know? God says so explicitly.
I don't think I've ever stumbled into such a roadblock because someone couldn't comprehend the idea that a third party might comment on how your actions are not following some guidelines. Talking to you is a semantic fucking nightmare.

you say that the damned have the right to identify others who are damned, but the final decision still rests with God. humans do not hand out justice; we are imperfect. God is perfect justice....blah blah blah, you know it all.

Do you know what "identify" means?

Here are some examples of me deciding things:
"I declare that your name, little creature, will be 'bird'."
"I grant you access to the public park."
"No one is allowed to touch my stash."
This is what God does, or anyone with any invested authority.

Compare with examples of me identifying things:
"That is a bird."
"The park is public."
"It doesn't look like anyone touched my stash."
THIS is what I'm doing when I say I, a damned one, am identifying you as a fellow damned. I'm not deciding it; I'm pointing it out. God is the one who declared it, and I'm merely showing that it applies to you.
Go ahead and give a thorough read-through of any part of my previous posts with this in mind. I am stunned that you interpreted it the way you did, because I thought what I was saying was very clear and my meaning was obvious. It wouldn't have made any sense for me to have said it the way you interpreted it.

but (within Christianity) you do not have the right to give a direct and conclusive judgment to me.

Wait, why not? I mean, obviously not a divine judgment that actually involves action that would require some sort of authority, but I'm certainly free to judge you and point out whether or not you're being a good Christian. If I understand your faith, especially if I understand it better than you do, then I am totally within my right to comment on how well you're adhering to Christian doctrine.
...the problem here is simply that you're not a Christian at all. Or if you are, you're horrendously bad at it.

outside of Christianity, you can respect my rights within my religion.

But if I don't respect your religion, then there's no respect I'd necessarily extend to anything you do that's relevant to your religion.

Otherwise, what Dave just said. Just in case you needed further explanation.

[yungerkid]

...i was identifying, not judging...

ok, ok. God did give us what we needed to know to get into Heaven. He distinguished proper from improper behaviour. and we have the right to identify improper behaviour according to those guidelines. but we don't have the right to make judgments and absolute conclusions based on those guidelines.

look, forget this whole argument. i sure hope you don't end up in a government position (;P). we're getting nowhere, and we're both getting headaches dealing with the idiosyncrasies of the other. let's just drop this.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

look, forget this whole argument. i sure hope you don't end up in a government position (;P).

What a terrible thing to say! (Especially for a what-you-think-is-a-Christian.) The issues have all developed clearly on your end of things -- you need to get your act together. You have a very large amount of feedback, none of which you've bothered to address, assuming you're even capable of it, and that's exactly the sort of stubbornness that would make a terrible politician. But I, because I give supporting reasoning, refuse to take bullshit, and fight for what I believe is true until such time as I'm convinced otherwise, would make a bad politician? I think it's just 'cuz you resent me for giving you the bad news that you've just irredeemably damned yourself to Hell -- I didn't make the rules, dude; don't shoot the messenger.
You'd rather have someone who develops a notion that fails miserably to stand up to criticism, but still touts the idea regardless while insisting that no one talks anymore about how unreasonable it is? That would make a better politician, you think?

[Rikaninja]

Yes, what an incredibly cruel thing to say. It could hurt the feeling of all the users of this hostile community. I terrible crime that only yungerkid could peform.

[29403]

Yes, what an incredibly cruel thing to say. It could hurt the feeling of all the users of this hostile community. I terrible crime that only yungerkid could peform.

Hostile eh?

[Rikaninja]

Yes! This is the rudest, most violent, cruel, blood curling, arrogant hostile climate in the world.
Not really but I'm trying to prove my point which I now is not the truth.

[yungerkid]

Tsukatu, i'm not angry at you at all for making your statement about my going to Hell. i was just trying to end the argument because it wasn't going to go anywhere. also, i was not trying to propagate myself as a politician; i have no desire to be one. i am sorry if that comment offended anyone. it was meant jokingly.

[otters]

I'm sure there's a reason for life and a purpose for me. I just think I'm doing everything wrong.

[Turiski]

I don't know. I think there is probably a reason, probably a purpose, but I'm not entirely sure I care. I'd rather spend my philosophical time examining other people. Maybe that's my purpose. Know another person. I'd be more than satisfied with that.

But a reason? For life in general? No good single answer. Biologically I'd have to go with sex, psychologically I'd say love. Mathematically I'd say knowledge, and technologically I'd say improvement. Spiritually I would choose understanding. In order:

The sex to improve,
The improvement to advance,
The advancement to know,
The knowledge to understand,
The understanding to love,
The love to hope,
The hope to live.

Life is its own reward.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

The sex to improve,
The improvement to advance,
The advancement to know,
The knowledge to understand,
The understanding to love,
The love to hope,
The hope to live.

Life is its own reward.

The sex for money (gotta make a living somehow),
The money for the girl (nobody needs to get hurt here),
The girl for a sizable dowry (arranged marriage ftw),
The dowry for research funding,
The research FOR SCIENCE!!,
The FOR SCIENCE!! to entertain the audience,
The audience for the show,
The show for the glory,
The glory for life,

MY LIFE FOR AUIR.

[Rikaninja]

Dude! You have 399 posts and that one there seems slightly, I don't know, unnecesary?

[Condog]

Dude! You have 399 posts and that one there seems slightly, I don't know, unnecesary?

Bahahahahahaaa, you're hilarious dude. Because the only reason you would point out something like that - when you yourself make exponentially more unnecessary posts that Suki does - would be to show the inherent irony of such an action, for the entertainment of others. Right? I mean, it's not like you would genuinely tell Tsukatu that his post is unnecessary, and somehow remain oblivious to the fact that he makes intelligent posts relevant to the situation, while you constantly spam inane gibberish. Right? Right? Right? Right?

[yungerkid]

yeh, woulda thunkened that'd been obvius.

.......huurrrrrrrr......*exhale*....

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Tsukatu, i'm not angry at you at all for making your statement about my going to Hell. i was just trying to end the argument because it wasn't going to go anywhere. also, i was not trying to propagate myself as a politician; i have no desire to be one. i am sorry if that comment offended anyone. it was meant jokingly.

Possibly because I'm in a mind-altered state and have had a... particularly honest night, I sorta feel like I owe you an explanation about something, incluye.
I have nothing against you. Truly.
You believe in some weird shit, from my perspective, much like a lot of Christians I've met, but the amount of respect I have for you is positive (unlike yungerkid). You're well-meaning and you're honest about your beliefs, and that goes really fucking far in my book almost regardless of what you believe (and your brand of Christianity is well within the "almost"). You mean well. That's awesome. I encourage you to continue being the person you are, even though I have the obvious biased hope that you'll learn better in your lifetime. The sort of conflict I have with yungerkid is a severe personality conflict as well as a difference of opinion, whereas with you it's merely a difference of opinion for reasons that I think are totally acceptable given your personality. I want to think of you as a friend (unlike yungerkid; he can go fuck himself for all I care at this point).
I guess I just want you to realize that the amount I tease you and pull your leg and all that shit, I haven't meant any of it maliciously or to antagonize you or anything. I know it's hard to gauge that given the impersonal nature of the means of our communication... but yeah.
:/
...and I'm gonna stop before I do something shameful.

[jean-luc]

Tsukatu, you have succesfully confused me up and down a wall.

And yes, I was not forcing Gonsticism on Youngerkid. I was inquiring if he agreed with Gnosticism, and explaining how the beliefs of Gnostics are very similar to what Youngerkid described, and can be in accordance with much of Christianity.

The heathen knows his bible best - indeed. However, you'll notice I use my Bible-knowledge against you, not against Christianity. I don't have a problem with Christians. Nor do I have a problem with Youngerkidism. I myself am indifferent to religion, but people judging others for religious infractions, in violation of the religion that the accused has supposedly infracted, really ticks me off.

EDIT: I realized that one of the sentences I wrote originally was completely bizarre. it has been replaced. the original is preserved below for humor value:

"... but people judging others in violation of the religion in the context of which they judge them really ..."

[Turiski]

The sex for money (gotta make a living somehow),
The money for the girl (nobody needs to get hurt here),
The girl for a sizable dowry (arranged marriage ftw),
The dowry for research funding,
The research FOR SCIENCE!!,
The FOR SCIENCE!! to entertain the audience,
The audience for the show,
The show for the glory,
The glory for life,

MY LIFE FOR AUIR.

Er... That's a pretty ****ed up belief system there.
So the meaning of life to you is: sex, money, girl, a dowry, research, science, audience-entertaining, shows, glory, life, and a fictional planet?

I'm glad you felt comfortable with sharing.

Also: yeah that was confusing; you said:

Tsukatu, i'm not angry at you at all for making your statement about my going to Hell. i was just trying to end the argument because it wasn't going to go anywhere. also, i was not trying to propagate myself as a politician; i have no desire to be one. i am sorry if that comment offended anyone. it was meant jokingly.

[...]
but the amount of respect I have for you is positive (unlike yungerkid)