Who here plays Smash Bros Brawl?

[Atilla]

Mmm, I've read that before and I don't like it, because it falls into Stop Having Fun, Guys. The chapter about scrubs is particularly bad. At one point he explains that, although scrubs might think they're having fun, it's not real fun because they just can't appreciate the game on as many levels as superior beings like he. He's literally denying that it's possible for anyone to have fun unless they play the way he likes. He also make no distinction between the worst kind of 'scrub' - those who make up entirely arbitrary rules and constantly complain that everything is cheap - and people who just aren't interested in dedicating themselves to tournament play, or to winning at all costs. Furthermore, the assertion that tournament players enjoy the game on more levels than 'scrubs' is manifestly false. His writing reveals that he enjoys it on only one level, and that is winning. Other people enjoy social elements, or being creative and winning with style.

If you take the article as applying to Smash Bros, it's also quite hypocritical. After all, he says that the wretched, pathetic scrubs are people who decry something as 'cheap' and 'requiring no skill', and subsequently ban it... which is exactly why tournament players ban items and many stages.


Also, look at the bit about Timmy, Johnny and Spike on this page, which is a more sensible description of player values and may explain why there's all this fuss about scrubs. In brief, Timmy is the one who loves the Falcon Punch, even though it's not the best move in the game, just because it's hilariously over-the-top. Johnny is the one who will try to KO you on 10% with some bizarre and highly-risky edgeguarding technique, because he loves nothing more than making everyone yell "What the hell? How did you do that?" Spike is your tournament-play type.

[mattk210]

Sirlin can be a bit pretentious, but I think in general his points are good. The concept of "fun" is such an ill-defined topic; is it simply enjoying yourself, passing time, satisfaction at surmounting some goal? Personally, I play games to achieve objectives: whether that is beating a boss or another player or whatever. When I am beaten because of something that is out of my control, I dislike this and do not consider it fun. If for example, my opponent gets a hammer item to spawn near him and beats me, this is not a result of playing the game better, just being more fortunate. I prefer to agree with the people I play with to disable the hammer item for this reason (and all other items, though we've been trialling "item standard play" recently), and this isn't a problem, because we both like to play the game like this. This is really just as social as casual play: instead of casually arguing "Ike is totally better", we can talk about how Ike is advantaged or disadvantaged based on the exact rules of the game and the different aspects of the game.

The derogatory term "scrub" (and I prefer to use "casual" for the same meaning), refers to a player who imposes his own restrictions on the game that are not established, enforceable rules, such as "i'm going to not use the bazooka". If before the match that's the terms of the match (the bazooka is banned) that's perfectly fine, but if one player continuously wins with the bazooka and the other player claims "stop doing that, that's cheap and it takes no skill", he's creating rules that are not part of the game: he should find a counter to the bazooka, use it himself, or properly agree on not using it in the future (if indeed it can be shown that the bazooka would dominate play to the level where other key aspects are made obsolete, or even if they just decide they don't like it).

In summary, it's totally okay to agree on whatever ruleset you want, but calling someone "cheap" because of using a tactic that is entirely within the game and not expressly banned, is not very nice.

A final note: you often do find timmy and johnny playing competitively. People can play the game how they want and doing a surprise move like falcon punch often wins the game. The difference is that they accept losing to spike because he has a greater knowledge and ability of the game. Hell, a player called NinjaLink beat the widely-accepted best brawl player, M2K, in a fair match with diddy kong, a pretty unused character, using surprise tactics such as a grab kill at the beginning. This is just as much "playing to win".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLWmsDhpDk4 (don't listen to the commentary, it's garbage)
edit: another note about that video - diddy peanut spams at one point to prevent mk from recovering. instead of calling cheap he finds a way around it, and the second time it's tried in the video, it doesn't work at all.

[Yoshimo]

I'm pretty good, I prefer casual game mode, you know, items. But don't get me wrong, I can do pretty good in competitive play, I just don't have anyone to play with me, que no practise...

[PALEMOON]

I find these arguments surrounding SSBB to be very interesting. i find it hilarious that a game with such a silly concept has become such a hotbed for the 'tournament vrs. casual' argument.

I play SSBB with my friends with no items a large percentage of the time, because we've all simply come to the agreement that the items can be a real pain in the ass.
Similarly, we've all agreed playing in a tournament would also be a pain in the ass. It's my opinion that SSBB, the king of random and silly fighting games, should not give you raging stress headaches or make you type up huge non-profit essays on how 'broken' something is or how dumb everyone that doesn't play like you is.

There's nothing wrong with items, and using them does not make you a lower class of player. The same goes for maps, characters, music, game types, wow there's a lot of stuff to be elitist about in this game, etc.

Just enjoy the game, and be willing to try other ways of playing. that is all.

P.S. i play wario now.


edit:

NO BIRTH CONTROL
MISSIONARY ONLY
FINAL DESTINATION

[spudzalot]

NO ITEMS!
METAKNIGHT ONLY!
SMASHVILLE!

Thats the brawl version. :]

I went to a Brawl tournament yesterday and placed real bad. I could put up a good fight but I was barely not good enough to win. It was still fun though. Mostly because in team matches me and the number one person in the state got down to one life and both of our partners died and I beat him! :D So I'm sure I have potential considering that was my second tourney.

[Condog]

NO ITEMS!
METAKNIGHT ONLY!
SMASHVILLE!

Thats the brawl version. :]

I went to a Brawl tournament yesterday and placed real bad. I could put up a good fight but I was barely not good enough to win. It was still fun though. Mostly because in team matches me and the number one person in the state got down to one life and both of our partners died and I beat him! :D So I'm sure I have potential considering that was my second tourney.

Congrats! What characters did people use, just out of interest?

[spudzalot]

Congrats! What characters did people use, just out of interest?

I fought someone that used Snake, and another that uses Toonlink and Marth. Lost to both.

The characters that are used the most are Snake, Marth, Meta Knight, Falco and surprisingly Sonic. After that like two people use Yoshi, Olimar and Lucario.

By the way, I mained Yoshi and switched to Olimar or Snake when things got tough.

[mattk210]

Yoshi is an excellent choice right now. He has a chaingrab and guaranteed upsmash with his excellent pivot grab on metaknight, and is probably the closest thing to a counter. Yoshi right now is pretty underused so metaknights won't know the matchup.

I use metaknight mainly, Yoshi for other metaknights, snake, olimar and falco when my metaknight fails. But I don't really go to tournaments much (Australia)

[spudzalot]

Yoshi is an excellent choice right now. He has a chaingrab and guaranteed upsmash with his excellent pivot grab on metaknight, and is probably the closest thing to a counter. Yoshi right now is pretty underused so metaknights won't know the matchup.

I use metaknight mainly, Yoshi for other metaknights, snake, olimar and falco when my metaknight fails. But I don't really go to tournaments much (Australia)

Wow, you really know your stuff. But most metaknights do know about the matchup, its talked about alot on smashboards since metaknight is close to being banned.

The chaingrab helped me a lot. It has a zero to death combo on Falco! And the grab release alone is nice too. I can be comboed into an egg, upsmash, and a couple of aerials. Yoshi's aerials rape too. >:D

[Condog]

Well, both of you sound pretty knowledgable about the tournament class of Brawl, but do either of you have any experience with Ice Climbers? I'm looking to move on from casual play and get used to tourney play, but it's sort of hard to do with only written explanations. If either of you could help me with the more experienced techniques, i'd be grateful.

[mattk210]

spudz: i didn't know people had caught onto the yoshi matchup yet. Not here in any case. Do you main yoshi? I have a friend who does and he finds it really difficult to main. Against the chaingrabbables (particularly wario), he's great, but he's sluggish and short ranged and easily gimped. So I use him as a counter character.

ice climbers are probably the most difficult character to play, but are very effective against some of the most difficult to counter characters if mastered (Dedede for example). I'm not really an IC player but I have some experience and knowledge.

"Desynching" is important to attack the enemy from different angles at the same time. Basically this means when you get hit or one ice climber grabs the edge or trips, try and maintain the separation of a second or so so you can back up attacks from one ice climber with the other.

The other important part is landing and chaining grabs. You can pass an enemy between the ice climbers for a very effective infinite combo on all characters if you're good enough, and even if not you can hit for damage with one climber while holding with the other. Charge with Z a smash attack and when your grabbing climber lets go you can do a really powerful forward or upsmash, or if applicable pass to the edge of the stage and Nana's fair can spike. If you have only one climber you can still use downthrow to chaingrab to a decent percent on a few characters.

Also learn to recombine climbers if one is separated and flying. You CAN jump down and do an upB to save her, but it's better to try and resync with a squall hammer before then (smash b to rise a little). Incidentally, with desynched squalls/ice blocks/wind thing you can really keep up a constant storm of crap towards them that's difficult to counter.

also, upB is actually a really powerful KO move. Characters that recover high like Snake and ROB often don't realize you can pop up for a very low% KO with upB.

here's a pretty good IC vid: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=oroshwC0Yto

people say, though, that for new players to the game the most important part is making decisions and being unpredictable and not learning new techniques: at my first tournament I thought because I'd mastered all the advanced melee stuff I'd be unstoppable, but I realized I was very predictable -- I always forward smashed at particular places and openings and I always did the wavedash-back-forward thing which is very easily punished. Rolling is a chronic problem with new players.. I've played people that you can pretty much stand there and wait until they roll, and run in with a grab.

[Atilla]

Sirlin can be a bit pretentious, but I think in general his points are good, etc.

I agree that the points where he actually talks about strategies for tournament play and so forth are good. I just wish he'd stick to that and refrain from laying the boot into people who don't like tournament-style play.

A final note: you often do find timmy and johnny playing competitively.

Of course, but they're generally less interested in tournaments (or, at least, don't care as much about winning them) than Spike. It's also entirely possible to be more than one type.

I find these arguments surrounding SSBB to be very interesting. i find it hilarious that a game with such a silly concept has become such a hotbed for the 'tournament vrs. casual' argument.

*Dons fireproof armour*

So, what do we all think about tiers?

[PALEMOON]

tiers are for queers.

[spudzalot]

Well, both of you sound pretty knowledgable about the tournament class of Brawl, but do either of you have any experience with Ice Climbers? I'm looking to move on from casual play and get used to tourney play, but it's sort of hard to do with only written explanations. If either of you could help me with the more experienced techniques, i'd be grateful.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163483

Here is a super long in depth guide to using Ice Climbers that I found on smashboards. It covers chaingrabbing, desyncing and everything about Ice Climbers. You might as well join the boards while youre at it, you can find tourney information for your area and load of info on all of the characters. (if you do you should find spudzalot and request to be a frined :])

And matt. Yep I do main Yoshi (just look at my "other banners") and I thin Yoshi is difficult to use at first but then it gets easier. I hate matchups like Marth and Lucario but the rest aren't to hard to handle. But yah chaingrab matchups are great, lol infinite Wario. But Brawl Yoshi is not like the Melee Yoshi and definately isnt as easy to gimp anymore. Mostly because when recovering you can throw an egg to stop them from jumping after you then use your second jump. DR and DT arent worth it. >.>

EDIT: Tiers exist but are not needed. Just choose a character and play the game. Then switch if you dont like that character.

[mattk210]

well an exact list of characters in order is a little bit too subjective for me, but some characters are definitely without question better than others. Deconstruct every aspect of metaknight or snake and you'll see they are systematically better than captain falcon. But tiers are often not as important as
a) skill
b) counter characters and stages

condog: if you're going to join smashboards, be prepared for absolutely insane amounts of trolls, idiotic discussion, worthless posts, etc.

[spudzalot]

condog: if you're going to join smashboards, be prepared for absolutely insane amounts of trolls, idiotic discussion, worthless posts, etc.

Have you ever been to the GameFAQ's board? Go there and look through about three threads then say the smashboards has all that. xD I usually just read the character threads not the ongoing, pointless, roundabout debate threads.

[Zivilyn]

I enjoyed Ice Climbers in Melee, but with Brawl I really did not feel like relearning all of the itsy bitsy nuances that are so crucial to this character, that, unfortunately, HAL failed to preserve for the Wii sequel.

Ganondorf.

Or should I say... Manondorf?

The only hard-counter to Metaknight when playing on flat stages, in addition to the character with the least vulnerability to chain-grabs, the Dorf is often overlooked and written off because he's easily perceived as lumbering and heavy, or "slow". Rest assured this is not the case. I am currently working on a well thought out list of reasons to main Ganondorf and in what situations he is useful (i.e. all of them). I'll post it when it's ready for print.

[mattk210]

metaknight? I'd say diddy, yoshi, snake are the closest, ganondorf will last five seconds being WOP'd off the stage. He does have his spike and suicide choke but as if you're going to land them on the most maneuverable lagless character in the game

The IC's are the least vulnerable to CG's. Ganon can be CG'd by falco, yoshi, DDD, IC's, pikachu and infinited by wario. So that's um.. everyone...

EDIT: wait, were you joking?

[PALEMOON]

Ganondorf.

Or should I say... Manondorf?

The only hard-counter to Metaknight when playing on flat stages, in addition to the character with the least vulnerability to chain-grabs, the Dorf is often overlooked and written off because he's easily perceived as lumbering and heavy, or "slow". Rest assured this is not the case. I am currently working on a well thought out list of reasons to main Ganondorf and in what situations he is useful (i.e. all of them). I'll post it when it's ready for print.

Sir! I am very prepared to debate as to the lucrative benefits of the large dark-skinned man hailing from the hardy regions of the barbarous desert! He hardly seems a adequate counter to the nostradamus of the night, that you so boldly claim cannot even lay eyes upon the beastial force you title "The Dorf" I would calmly ask that you justify your confidant words over a fine dinner at the Rutherford Manor!

[spudzalot]

Oldmandorf is definately not good agains Meatknight. Unless Oldmandorf is hungy for fresh meat.

(but seriously no)

[Zivilyn]

A dinner! Parry, it should be a banquet, with the sheer number of points that would forcibly be addressed by such a gathering. I propose a tea to begin at 11 AM sharp, should it not impose, with a lengthy chat in a relaxing environ, with dinner to follow.
But who will be our host?

PS No I do actually think that the Man, aka, Manondorf, has serious potential, that thus far lies untapped, as it were, but I was being a little extravagant, yes.

[PALEMOON]

A dinner! Parry, it should be a banquet, with the sheer number of points that would forcibly be addressed by such a gathering. I propose a tea to begin at 11 AM sharp, should it not impose, with a lengthy chat in a relaxing environ, with dinner to follow.
But who will be our host?

PS No I do actually think that the Man, aka, Manondorf, has serious potential, that thus far lies untapped, as it were, but I was being a little extravagant, yes.

Sire Rutherford will be quite accommodating, i am quite sure of that. He is quite the fine brawler himself, and has many a notable tournament-bout under his belt. I shall arrive by way of horse-carriage at 11 sharp, as you so precisely put it, and i urge you to hasten there as well so we may continue this engaging topic at great length. i will summarize my thoughts on the matter here.

And as for our Saharan Gentleman, while you were tossing about words of 'godliness' and 'nigh-impossible to beat' that i do not quite agree with, i am agreeable with you that he does set a high mark as for the other rather heavy gentlemen of his division. While he is not some hammer-wielding knave, he does indeed posses a rather unthought-of lurking force that does indeed transcend other men. The Dorf is a calibre all his own, i do agree with you there. oh, yes.

[spudzalot]

Here is the Brawl Tier List, just to stir things up. Let me explain a few things:
1. This is a list of 1 vs. 1 with items OFF.
2. This does not mean that Meta Knight can easily beat everyone below him because this list has nothing to do with individual matchups.
3. This is only version one of the list so if you think there should be changes then I agree.

Top
Meta Knight
Snake
King Dedede
Mr. Game & Watch
Falco
R.O.B.

High
Marth
Wario
Lucario
Donkey Kong
Diddy
Pikachu
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Pit
Wolf

Middle
Toon Link
Olimar
Fox
Zelda
Zero Suit Samus
Bowser
Luigi
Peach
Ike
Sheik

Low
Lucas
Ness
Mario
Pokémon Trainer
Samus
Yoshi
Sonic
Jigglypuff
Ganondorf
Link
Captain Falcon

My thoughts:
1. Captain Falcon should go up, he doesnt suck that much...
2. Yoshi should move up to at least middle, I mean how is Bowser better?
3. Olimar needs to move to top, because he has everything! (besides a good recovery)

Thats it. :D

[PALEMOON]

this is the tier list that i'm sure the people i play with will agree on: (and how tier lists SHOULD be lol controversy)

Top Tier
Leopard print Snake
Marth
ROB's Gyro
DEATH CHOKE
gannondorf
Gannondorf's rape attack
Zamus' armor chunks

High Tier
Wario
Wario
Wario
Wario

Really Good Tier:
Olimar
Ice Climbers
Lucario
Mewtwo ( RIP ;_; )
DDD
Mario
Luigi
Zelda
Peach
Bowser
Toon Link
DK
Diddy
Ike
Samus
Zamus
Lucas
Ness
Yoshi
Link
Captain Falcon
Sonic
Pokemon Trainer
Fox
Falco
Pikachu
Kirby

Low Tier
Hanenbow

Oh I Forgot About This Little Guy Tier
Mr. Game and Watch

"oh. you're one of THOSE players" tier
Metaknight
Pit

okay but jokes aside i really do not like tier lists, but i can kind of understand the one Spudz posted. I just don't like it >.> i'm kind of an idealist when it comes to brawl.

[mattk210]

I think marth needs to rise -- he doesn't really have any bad matchups and can control spacing so well, wario needs to fall because he has so many counterpicks that can infinite him and he can be predictable and punishable.

on your comments, I think falcon really does need to stay where he is -- he's got some decent individual attacks but they're very one-off. He doesn't have any potential in any of the key areas -- killing power, racking up damage, avoiding being killed and gimping.

I think Yoshi is very situational --with some matchups he's pretty good but for others he's abysmal. That's probably the reason he's so low. But yeah, I'd probably place him mid-tier.

And I used to play Olimar, and I can tell you he suffers falcon's problem a bit. His terrible priority means against a careful player you'll have a really hard time hitting at all with your supposedly good airs and smashes, and if you do you can't really do anything from them. His projectile, while good, is overrated -- it can be quite easily endured or hit away and it doesn't actually allow for followups. His recovery is really, really bad, I'd say possibly the worst or second worst in the game.

His grab game is the one thing which is actually good at all levels of play, and without it I think he'd be pretty low tier. This list is for the highest level of play remember.