Am I getting too atobish?

[smartalco]

Here is my opinion without reading any of the rest of the thread:

stop worrying if you are looking like another mapper, just make fun levels (just don't blatantly copy someone else's work)

[MattKestrel]

Okay, first of all I have ditched the doors. Secondly, the mines in their positions were actually important in providing that challenge, for the most part here. But I see what everyone's saying and for now I'll drop these ideas just to take the focus off them and more on the maps.

The only reason I didnt drop the mines here is because I found them genuinely useful, and I didn't want a petty argument like this to adversely affect the play of my maps.

Right, this being said I think that everything useful has already been said, so can someone please drop this, or lock the thread. Thanks for the feedback.

[a happy song]

The only reason I didnt drop the mines here is because I found them genuinely useful, and I didn't want a petty argument like this to adversely affect the play of my maps.

As soon as you stop making silly excuses like this, your maps will benefit. You can produced exactly the same effect without using the motif.

[SkyPanda]

Atob, I thought you agreed that claiming to have created the mine motif was ridiculous? Why the turn-around?

[blue_tetris]

The mine motif? Someone owns a way to lay mines?

[MattKestrel]

As soon as you stop making silly excuses like this, your maps will benefit. You can produced exactly the same effect without using the motif.

If you disregard the truth from me as a silly excuse, that's your problem, not mine.

Admittedly, some of it was unneccesary, but I probably used the mine motif out of habit rather than intentionally. Which is definitely part of the problem, I guess.

Anyway, let's forget about this for now and focus on the more important stuff; the next map I make will hopefully be a turning point, or at least something original. I'll get rid of these haggered themes and produce consistently original maps from now on, I promise.

I suppose this is karma for me donating £10 to charity today :P

[MattKestrel]

Poll refreshed and rejigged, hopefully now more useful? Also, here's that example I was going on about. I'll shut up now if no-one else minds :)

[a happy song]

Atob, I thought you agreed that claiming to have created the mine motif was ridiculous? Why the turn-around?

No, I agreed that arguing about it within the previous context was ridiculous. I'm not claiming ownership but I'm obviously the one who created this particular theme, the evidence is on NUMA and speaks for itself.

I've never suggested ideas can't be shared, merely that copying and pasting them consistently will damage creative output (that it wasn't me who called the authors on using cut and paste ideas in the first place tells enough about this).

If you disregard the truth from me as a silly excuse, that's your problem, not mine.

Okay, first of all I have ditched the doors. Secondly, the mines in their positions were actually important in providing that challenge, for the most part here. But I see what everyone's saying and for now I'll drop these ideas just to take the focus off them and more on the maps.

The only reason I didnt drop the mines here is because I found them genuinely useful, and I didn't want a petty argument like this to adversely affect the play of my maps.
.

The truth is simple: the function of the design could be emulated without copying the form entirely. Attempting to imply that emulation was the only way to achieve the gameplay effect is an excuse.

The mine motif? Someone owns a way to lay mines?

That's not what's being said at all.

An author designed a way to lay objects, another author admired it and copied it, other users commented on this calling it derivative, the author who copied had a problem with these comments.

A solution was offered: if you can't take the criticism, no matter how shallow, then a simple way to avoid it would be not to copy.

It's not about ownership, communities thrive on the sharing of ideas, it was about a simple solution to a simple problem. If you'd actually paid attention to the thread instead of dropping in with a cheap shot you might have discovered that for yourself.

[SkyPanda]

You seem to enjoy twisting this to suit some kind of vendetta, it's a shame you can't see past that.

Okay, just stop. Notice that I asked two questions. Questions.
One of the questions was asking clarification on something that you yourself said, using your own wording. The other question asked you that if you changed your mind, then why.
There's no need to get defensive, I don't bite ;) Not through a computer screen, anyway.
To date, I have disagreed with about 90% of what you say on the subject of mapping, buit I take everything anyone says in isolation, and I don't argue with you for fun, I probably post my opinions, information and guidance for the same reason that you do.

I'm obviously the one who created this particular theme, the evidence is on NUMA and speaks for itself.

A pattern of placing two mines next to each other? I highly doubt that.
It'd be time exhaustive to find links, but here at least is a very very similar map by Baraba that shows how generic such placement is. http://nmaps.net/75991
And even if you were actually the first to publish that mine placement- blimey, its probably in the main N levels somewhere- then its far too simple and generic for anybody to make a claim to.

Like I said before, the problem is using too much in one map. It's only when it all comes together that it looks and feels derivative of atob's maps. If GTM used that mine placement, but then filled the rest of the map with his own stuff, then he doesn't need to take the criticism if he doesn't want to, imo.

[a happy song]

Okay, just stop. Notice that I asked two questions. Questions.

I removed that sentence for a reason, and before you replied. I stand by it, but it's a pointless argument that will just lead to bickering ;)

A pattern of placing two mines next to each other? I highly doubt that.
It'd be time exhaustive to find links, but here at least is a very very similar map by Baraba that shows how generic such placement is. http://nmaps.net/75991
And even if you were actually the first to publish that mine placement- blimey, its probably in the main N levels somewhere- then its far too simple and generic for anybody to make a claim to.

Like I said before, the problem is using too much in one map. It's only when it all comes together that it looks and feels derivative of atob's maps. If GTM used that mine placement, but then filled the rest of the map with his own stuff, then he doesn't need to take the criticism if he doesn't want to, imo.

The theme in question is not merely the use of two mines in a shape, but the way those shapes were applied to the map in full and exploited to produce a very specific aesthetic and a certain gameplay. The argument isn't that it's the most original or intelligent of designs, merely that the origin of the application in question can be found in my maps.

The entire point of bringing this up wasn't for me to grasp at some kind of fame, I was using it as an example of GHM using too many aspects of my maps in his which was not only diluting his work but also provoking a response he was uncomfortable with.

The critique that cutting and pasting is detrimental is justified and worth listening to. I'm not just saying this to be precious, I'm trying to help these guys along with their own ideas.

I'm not sure why that's such a bad thing.

[SkyPanda]

Oh, I didn't notice you removed the sentence. Alerts are given for new posts while submitting replies, but there's no alerts for edits :/


Edit:

I stand by it

I've told you the truth, take it or leave it, o suspicious one :/

[a happy song]

Oh, I didn't notice you removed the sentence. Alerts are given for new posts while submitting replies, but there's no alerts for edits :/

I edited it out a good couple of hours before you replied. I'm not sure what happened :/


Edit post b_t reply:

Edit:

I stand by it

I've told you the truth, take it or leave it, o suspicious one :/

That was actually tongue in cheek, hence the emote. The sentence I removed was needlessly provocative on my part, which is exactly why I got rid of it.

[blue_tetris]

It's not about ownership, communities thrive on the sharing of ideas, it was about a simple solution to a simple problem. If you'd actually paid attention to the thread instead of dropping in with a cheap shot you might have discovered that for yourself.

I think atob feels like Spartacus. Everyone else around him has become a lion; he has become the savior of the people. Try not to let it get to you, Sky.

It's like dudes can't have a diverging opinion without getting insulted by this guy. I hope I don't have to non-ironically correct situations this time around.

[a happy song]

It's not about ownership, communities thrive on the sharing of ideas, it was about a simple solution to a simple problem. If you'd actually paid attention to the thread instead of dropping in with a cheap shot you might have discovered that for yourself.

I think atob feels like Spartacus. Everyone else around him has become a lion; he has become the savior of the people. Try not to let it get to you, Sky.

It's like dudes can't have a diverging opinion without getting insulted by this guy. I hope I don't have to non-ironically correct situations this time around.

What?

You came into the thread and insinuated that I was claiming ownership of a design aspect (with the clear connotations that it belonged to me and no one else), when I was merely stating that I'd created a specific design and for others to copy and paste it consistently would be a detriment to their own creativity.

As I said, if you paid attention to the thread you'd find there's nothing for you to correct. I'm not the one laying down the not_so_subtle insults :/

The real irony being that the removed sentence applies here perfectly.

[MattKestrel]

The truth is simple: the function of the design could be emulated without copying the form entirely. Attempting to imply that emulation was the only way to achieve the gameplay effect is an excuse.

Yeah, I agree with that statement.

Admittedly, some of it was unneccesary, but I probably used the mine motif out of habit rather than intentionally. Which is definitely part of the problem, I guess.

...but this statement (which wasn't a sneaky edit before anyone even thinks of pointing that finger) pretty much shows I wasn't trying to imply that in the first place. After this, I've made consciously sure that this kind of mine motif (amongst other things) isn't going to be included in my maps for a while. So I'm out of this discussion now, unless anyone really cares.

[a happy song]

Ha. SkyPanda and I have done a decent job of hijacking both of the current 'style' threads for our own debates, if you want to you can probably slip out the back door quietly while we're making a big fuss in the living room :p

[MattKestrel]

Cool. I'm glad to see I've been superseded :)

*grabs coat*

[blue_tetris]

We are all just overly derivative MacrossDreams, anyhow.



Anyhow, atob, I came in to make a general statement and you wanted to apply it to yourself, be insulted, and go on a rail about it. You've done this to indirect statements about movies, music, and mapping... and lord only knows how you'll personalize the next thing. I'm just saying chill the hell out. Every thread I see around here these days is atob insulting someone and it's obnoxious. I get PMs and a wide variety of personal complaints and I'm told to remedy the situation, so I feel obligated to go to the defense of whoever has been needlessly insulted and trolled and I just shouldn't feel that compulsion. Just... chill. Don't get defensive; don't overalnalyze the sentences people type; don't go on a bender. Just... chill.

[a happy song]

We are all just overly derivative MacrossDreams, anyhow.



Anyhow, atob, I came in to make a general statement and you wanted to apply it to yourself, be insulted, and go on a rail about it. You've done this to indirect statements about movies, music, and mapping... and lord only knows how you'll personalize the next thing. I'm just saying chill the hell out. Every thread I see around here these days is atob insulting someone and it's obnoxious. I get PMs and a wide variety of personal complaints and I'm told to remedy the situation, so I feel obligated to go to the defense of whoever has been needlessly insulted and trolled and I just shouldn't feel that compulsion. Just... chill. Don't get defensive; don't overalnalyze the sentences people type; don't go on a bender. Just... chill.

If that's honestly it, and people are feeling that... then of course, I'll back off.

I apologize if I've caused any kind of insult or discomfort. It really wasn't my intent.

[SkyPanda]

I've lost track of who's saying what and it sounds like the people involved have sorted it all out, but if it's of help to anybody, here's another link with similar placement:
http://nmaps.net/82168
-it's also a very sexy map.

[a happy song]

I've lost track of who's saying what and it sounds like the people involved have sorted it all out, but if it's of help to anybody, here's another link with similar placement:
http://nmaps.net/82168
-it's also a very sexy map.

Good detective work Mr Panda. I really wasn't aware it had been used so prominently like this before.

[SkyPanda]

Haha, well you've explained why its not about who created it anyway. Sorry I brought it up, but I really was intrigued as to whether it had ever been used before.