The Advancement of NUMA

[Spawn of Yanni]

This thread really makes one want to bang their head into a table repeatedly. That aside,

My take however, is that Numa's problem isn't programming, it is that the management is outdated. They are uninvolved with the NUMA community and are for the most part detached with the site. Although programming is going to have a vital role in the new NUMA, I doubt it is the main concern at the time being.

It's this sort of opinion that your OP seems to be trying to get across, and that's what everyone's addressing. You might've changed your opinion half-way through, but don't pretend like you didn't start out asking mappers to do a coder's job.

Anyway, that's besides the point. You seem to have established (now) that NUMA needs a new coding team. I understand where you're coming from when you say this is a call to arms, but, simply put, this is not the way to do it. The Metanet community consists of a little less than a handful of able coders; standing on top of a hill and yelling out to the masses isn't the best way to find people to do the job. If anything, you (we) need to seek out coders personally and convince them to try and help. Even that'll prove to be difficult, considering the awkward language left behind by Arachnid.

There has to be some sort of transition method, really, where we can get one final hold of 'nid to help someone like LV take over for good. But again, that's not what this thread will achieve. It's strange, because it seems like this thread has a very valid and important point at first glance, but at the moment, it's really not serving any definite purpose.

We're kind of left in a ditch here with NUMA, coding-wise. But please, if you want to discuss the social issues of NUMA in some way, go ahead.


Edit: This is all what atob's been saying, I suppose. Anyway, he's totally right when he says that NUMA doesn't need a new moderator team. It consists of trusted, active members of the community, and a) There is no current problem with NUMA that would be solved with more, newer, and/or more active mappers; and b) I'm not too intent on having the, uh, "newer generation" of the community in charge of the place. Not quite yet.

[origami_alligator]

I'm going to respond to this, because it was before you and atob started fighting and I don't think it was properly addressed.

Is it of my understanding that you are completely denying that there are no social problems on Numa? Wouldn't that contradict your prior comment that Numa is having problems because it is getting larger? And if you read this thread, isn't everyone disagreeing with you? Both Avarin and Little Viking have cited problems, and Amlt's and Radium's respective threads also have host of complaints that (a) maps aren't getting attention/ratings and (b) maps are being spammed. Your statement that there are no social problems is verging on fallacy, if not the fact it were an opinion.

(a) This "social issue" is not what the staff is meant to deal with.
(b) This social issue is controlled and taken care of to the best ability of the current staff. If you see someone spamming, flag their map/comment and leave a comment detailing why you flagged it. It's simple as that.

NUMA has technical flaws that will only be resolved once a person(s) of sufficient ability step forward and commit to the cause.

That is exactly what I am trying to do on this thread? How many times must I reemphasize this? I am asking for people of sufficient ability to step forward and commit to the cause.

So far these are the things you've done that have made you an inefficient and uncoordinated leader of whatever you're trying to start:
1. Your original post claims that it is the staff that need to be updated. Later on you claim that it is the technical aspects and social aspects of NUMA that need to be dealt with, after other people already pointed this out.
2. You have completely failed to recognize point 1.
3. You've spent far too much time bickering and clarifying your point of this thread to actually start any organization of people who would be willing to help. If you wanted to organize people to help NUMA, your original post wouldn't have made a bunch of outlandish claims that are almost entirely false about the website. Instead you would have presented yourself as only trying to help NUMA and only mentioning any social issues

NUMA is expanding, and unfortunately this means the quality ratio will drop.

That sounds to me an awful lot like a social and mapping problem.

No. This is not a problem, it's what happens with popular communities. They grow. As a map archive being NUMA's primary function, people can post whatever they want as long as it fits the rules of NUMA (it is a privately run website, meaning it gets to pick and choose the kind of content that is allowed). Therefore NUMA having awful maps is not a social issue.
Unfortunately, people glorify the ratings system and use it as some sort of popularity tool. This want of people to look at and play your maps makes you think that quality and quantity of maps on NUMA is a social issue, when in reality it simply does not matter how much attention or ratings your map gets. You're posting to a map archive, not some Olympics of N.

NUMA is run efficiently and smoothly by the staff. Whenever a problem arises (spammed maps, abusive members, etc..) it is reported either to a mod or myself and dealt with quickly.

That is completely subjective, and bias. However, I've already cited the good work of the staff, why you need to constantly emphasize so much, I don't know. Your defensive behaviour is leaning towards immature.

That is completely true. We have those people who flag comments and maps to thank, as well. If it weren't for the community itself a lot of things would probably go unnoticed by the staff until someone mentioned it to them through PM or IRC. NUMA runs incredibly well and I don't know why you're so quick to denounce atob's claims. You're not a moderator/admin, so how would you know? If you see something offensive, don't blame us for not getting to it, flag it for abuse!


And to top this whole thing off, I want to respond to this post, which you should recognize. I've decided to add emphasis to the places I think you need to look at and then refer to your more recent posts in this thread:

My take however, is that Numa's problem isn't programming, it is that the management is outdated. They are uninvolved with the NUMA community and are for the most part detached with the site. Although programming is going to have a vital role in the new NUMA, I doubt it is the main concern at the time being.
...
My call is that NUMA is updated and managed by people who are involved and motivated to improve the NUMA community. Yes we'll need a programmer. But we'll need involved leaders and managers and admin, too.

blue_tetris was given his admin position for the many things he has done for NUMA, most specifically for helping with the redesign.
Sweep was given his admin position for the development of Bitesized NUMA.
maestro was given his admin position for... uhm... I'm not sure.
atob was given his admin position for the help that he could do running the site that Arachnid could not be bothered with. He also has a very good grasp of the community he is involved with.

origami_alligator was given his moderator position by Arachnid, for helping make decisions and discussing aspects of the redesign of NUMA.
wedgie123 was given his moderator position for the same reason as origami_alligator.
lord_day, Skyline and Clovic were recommended as moderators of the site and have thus far proven to be great choices.

All of the moderators save wedgie and Clovic still submit maps and browse NUMA like crazy. (That I know of, at least.)
Of all the admins, atob is the one I know of who was given a legitimate position to deal with the many things that Arachnid or maestro didn't want to be bothered with that were beyond coding. He still makes maps and visits NUMA often.

While it would be nice to have a coder on the staff, it takes time to do these things. Maybe the wait has been a lot longer than necessary, but once a coder is on the staff I'm sure we can expect to see updates made more frequently and as smoothly as possible.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that a lot of the admins were given their status as a thank you for something they did to better the website, not because they were expected to update and keep the site running in Arachnid's leave. The original moderators (wedgie123, origami_alligator, LittleViking, and Fingersonthefrets) were given their status for helping with the redesign. Then LV and FOTF were dropped for their inactivity and we brought on more active members of the community to help deal with day-to-day problems.

---

If none of that makes any sense to you, please just give this thread up and let it die.

[a happy song]

Hey, I'm not fighting with anyone, I'm simply spelling out the facts. The guy's being less than smart with his approach, that needed calling.

This thread has no room to breath: I've already recommended a lock, and it really has nowhere to go in its current state. I'll leave that to the higher powers...

If Amadeus can collect himself and return with some recommendations minus the insults, perhaps we could carry his concerns forward with civility and positivity.

[Nexx]

Anyway, that's besides the point. You seem to have established (now) that NUMA needs a new coding team. I understand where you're coming from when you say this is a call to arms, but, simply put, this is not the way to do it. The Metanet community consists of a little less than a handful of able coders; standing on top of a hill and yelling out to the masses isn't the best way to find people to do the job. If anything, you (we) need to seek out coders personally and convince them to try and help. Even that'll prove to be difficult, considering the awkward language left behind by Arachnid.

QFE. Thank you, SoY. atob's posts had a lot of criticizing but I never did quite understand why he felt this thread was pointless in terms of the topic of NUMA coders, but you spell it out plainly there, and it's a good point. And it's also flame-free.

[Radium]

Hey, I'm not fighting with anyone, I'm simply spelling out the facts.

You say that, but I think you're coming across as rather arrogant and harsh.

[Amadeus]

So basically what I'm trying to say is that a lot of the admins were given their status as a thank you for something they did to better the website, not because they were expected to update and keep the site running in Arachnid's leave. The original moderators (wedgie123, origami_alligator, LittleViking, and Fingersonthefrets) were given their status for helping with the redesign. Then LV and FOTF were dropped for their inactivity and we brought on more active members of the community to help deal with day-to-day problems.

When you quoted me there, I'll admit that my comment on new site admins was unnecessary; I have nothing against the people running Numa. I'm going to take that sentence out of my OP as it doesn't really add any real substance to my point besides offending people who I'll be the first to admit are doing a good job. However, in my opinion, that single sentence wasn't deserving of a multiple post attack on Atob's part.

Regardless, you are right. There are quite a few active moderators and administrators. For the most part, I was referring to Arachnid when I typed up my original post, and I'm sorry if it came across as critical of Numa's administrators. Secondly, my point was that although these select people are doing a good job maintaining the site, we need people to update the site.

Finally, when I stated that the lack of attention maps are receiving is a social problem, I was in no way implying it was something moderators or administrators could fix. In fact, I was saying the only way it can be fixed is through the active mappers and users of Numa. This thread is a statement to them saying "If you can help, help", whether it be rating maps, helping newcomers, programming, problem solving, or any other helpful solutions one would deem fit. This site is for brainstorming how to make Numa a better place, however possible.

[a happy song]

However, in my opinion, that single sentence wasn't deserving of a multiple post attack on Atob's part.

Your posts are there for all to read man, you can act the wounded pup all you want, but your attitude in this thread stank and your opinions were put forward with complete disregard to the work many of us have put into this community. Regardless, there's a point in all of this somewhere that shouldn't be ignored: NUMA needs assistance.

And radium, that wasn't arrogance mate, it was disappointment.

[Fraxtil]

There are too many threads about NUMA's lack of quality. Also, Amadeus, as noble as your intents are, this thread is really as useless as all the others, mainly because it's turned into an argument about whether you are being too critical toward those in charge (and I don't think you are), and about the lack of programmers able to fix up NUMA. On that note, AltArc is coming along fine, and I'm going to put a map-making tutorial on the submission page for all first-time users. Hopefully that will keep the map quality up.

[Amadeus]

A map making tutorial sounds great. I'd love if this thread also turned into perhaps a volunteer sheet for people to help out newer mappers, as past threads have been virtually unsuccessful.

[Condog]

A map making tutorial sounds great. I'd love if this thread also turned into perhaps a volunteer sheet for people to help out newer mappers, as past threads have been virtually unsuccessful.

No. If you want to do that, make a new thread. This thread has been so clogged with petty arguments and debates we wont get anything useful out of it.

[a happy song]

Look, I've just had enough of people coming forward with nothing but complaints and their only offer being: "We need to start threads to get people involved!".

If you don't think enough maps are rated, then actually get out there and actively rate maps! If you think the moderators have their work cut out for them, there's a report button for you to help! If you think we need a coder, go and advertise out side of the community! Maybe even ask at your school, or facebook, or your physical social groups! There are plenty of ways to get involved and improve the community without such convoluted threads and petty debates.

Leading is best done by example, not complaining.

[Amadeus]

I do actively rate and comment on quite a few 'noob' maps, Atob, but one person isn't enough.

[a happy song]

I do actively rate and comment on quite a few 'noob' maps, Atob, but one person isn't enough.

If you honestly think you're doing enough of that for the amount of fuss you're creating, then all you can do is keep at it. Keep at it and hope that people follow your example. Trying to spark a voting/commenting revolution has been tried and failed many times for the simple fact that the majority don't care enough to help.

More to the point, not everyone believes the lack of commenting to be such an issue. After all we're not here to hold every new mappers hand through their learning process. The same resources are available to everyone. Creativity is spurred by self-motivation. Some people will just suck forever. You can't save the world.

The only tragedy is when a skilled author is ignored. If you notice this, then putting up links in your own maps, passing the maps on to your friends in the community, and using the ratings/commenting threads in a selfless way to promote their work are all better and more positively active ideas than threads like these.

[Amadeus]

And I will definitely try and do more of these things. I'm not going to hold a mapper's hand, as you say, but I think it is important everyone at the very least knows what recourses are out there; I recently linked a new mapper to your article on Function and Form.

I also agree with the portion on skilled mappers, I'll try and follow up on that too.

[origami_alligator]

And I will definitely try and do more of these things. I'm not going to hold a mapper's hand, as you say, but I think it is important everyone at the very least knows what recourses are out there; I recently linked a new mapper to your article on Function and Form.

I also agree with the portion on skilled mappers, I'll try and follow up on that too.

speaking of resources, the FAQ in this forum has a list of resources at the very bottom of the post. I'm going to try and keep it updated to the best of my ability, but maybe people can link me to things that I have not found or did not know about.

[Arachnid]

I fully support Amadeus on this matter. Ever since the redesign, NUMA has fallen into a state of disrepair. The site is filled with glitches. I am currently being plagued with the "1 map with unread comments" when there are none glitch. It is ANNOYING. And are these glitches/bugs getting fixed? Not at all. Arachnid hasn't fixed a thing. This is, frankly, unacceptable.

And don't even get me started on the social aspect of NUMA. These are my thoughts.

Unacceptable? Oh. Right then. I guess you'd better fire me.

What's that? You don't employ me? Perhaps you can cut off my salary?

Oh, you've never paid a dollar towards NUMA's upkeep in your life? Right. Well, you could always cease your contributions towards improving the code.

Ah, none of that either. So you've never done anything except complain, correct?

Seriously, exactly what gives you the right to declare something I and others do in our spare time, with our own money 'unacceptable'?

[Ampersand]

I fully support Amadeus on this matter. Ever since the redesign, NUMA has fallen into a state of disrepair. The site is filled with glitches. I am currently being plagued with the "1 map with unread comments" when there are none glitch. It is ANNOYING. And are these glitches/bugs getting fixed? Not at all. Arachnid hasn't fixed a thing. This is, frankly, unacceptable.

And don't even get me started on the social aspect of NUMA. These are my thoughts.

Unacceptable? Oh. Right then. I guess you'd better fire me.

What's that? You don't employ me? Perhaps you can cut off my salary?

Oh, you've never paid a dollar towards NUMA's upkeep in your life? Right. Well, you could always cease your contributions towards improving the code.

Ah, none of that either. So you've never done anything except complain, correct?

Seriously, exactly what gives you the right to declare something I and others do in our spare time, with our own money 'unacceptable'?

Oh snap. Someone just got told.

[Spawn of Yanni]

I'm gonna lock this, because it's been established that it doesn't quite have a point; because it's been a bit trolly; and because arachnid won.