Project: Metagame - Join and contribute!

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Postby Geti » 2008.10.22 (08:37)

lolol that would be messy, the spoiler thing :P

i kind of like the WASD movement, as it allows you to aim (im assuming we'll have a weapon at some point, and id rather be able to aim than shoot stright, the mouse is also good for looking around when unarmed, keeping tabs on enemies etc..); but it would make getting around a planet a pain.. maybe use AD to walk around a planet according to what side you land on it: ie. land on the bottom, press Right to go right and continue in that direction until you land on another planet, up jumps and down rolls/crouches/dives.
it would need to be tested.

on the more complex movements above, i think if you are stationary and press down you should crouch, while moving and pressing down the player should go into a dive, if movement is continued while diving it will become a roll. blah that makes little sense.

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S = crouch
S + D = dive to prone right
S + D + diving right = roll to standing right
thats better. so if S + D are still pressed when you hit the ground from diving you will roll, otherwise you'll be in prone (crawling).. maybe also

Code: Select all

A + D + facing right = backwards roll
A + W + facing right = jump backwards
A + S + W + facing right = backflip
D + S + W + facing right = frontflip
rolling + W = spring jump
all more suited to the wall jump character.

awesome work getting some code done.

maybe we do just have the screen rotate with the character. that would be insane if it actually flipped around when you rolled or flipped, it would put a physical limit on how much flipping and rolling and acrobatics' you could do, as it would disorientate you a lot, just like flipping around in and out of different gravity would.
how possible is motion-blur shaders in flash? im seeing more blur the faster you go here.. zoom! and maybe less blur around the character, like as you go out it gets more and more blurry? delirium!

i still like the cartoon feel over all the photorealism, like i can see this working with textures and stuff all through the planet, but more cartoonish. think SMG, the textures are detailed, but not photorealistic, they look cartoony and fun. that would work with this, we'd have cooler explosions and probably a darker feel but similar. that or just block colour.. mixing two art styles doesnt really work though.

on inertia and sticking, maybe have it so the planets are in defined orbit until very large force causes them to be knocked out.
this could be defined per planet like

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planetoid {
	image = contentfile
		filelocation = /<dirs to planets>/file.svg|file.png
		scale = !scale
	gravityforce = !planet_gravity_ms
	addorbital = planetoid { <defined here or elsewhere> }
		orbitdistance = !distance
		orbitspeed = !speed
		orbitdirection = <boolean>
		orbitdeform { <vars, skew etc> }
		orbitlock = !strength
	addsurface = mapobject { <defined here or elsewhere> }
		pos = !degrees
		surfacedepth = !depthpercent //could be used to place things above the surface as well, with 150% etc.
etc.
}
objects would come loose when they get hit by an impulse of more than !strength, and more than one orbital could be added, and the orbitals could have other bodies orbiting them. planetoids would be placed in the galaxy with code like

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addstatic = planetoid { <defined here or elsewhere> }
	location = vector
		locx = !x
		locy = !y
	staticlock = !strength
orbitals and statics can be anything, from a planetoid to an enemy or mapobject.
anyway, enough code musing. most of it should be self-explanatory anyway.

i like the idea for the level structure condog.
awesomeness this is becoming.
we need a good movement system though... i like the WASD + flippycamera ^^
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Postby Atilla » 2008.10.22 (10:25)

Geti wrote:li kind of like the WASD movement, as it allows you to aim (im assuming we'll have a weapon at some point, and id rather be able to aim than shoot stright, the mouse is also good for looking around when unarmed, keeping tabs on enemies etc..); but it would make getting around a planet a pain.. maybe use AD to walk around a planet according to what side you land on it: ie. land on the bottom, press Right to go right and continue in that direction until you land on another planet, up jumps and down rolls/crouches/dives.
it would need to be tested.
It would be better to keep the directions consistent, i.e. D is always clockwise and A is always widdershins. Alternately, the player could always be upright and the world could rotate. That might be slower, though.

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Postby Condog » 2008.10.22 (10:41)

Atilla wrote:
Geti wrote:li kind of like the WASD movement, as it allows you to aim (im assuming we'll have a weapon at some point, and id rather be able to aim than shoot stright, the mouse is also good for looking around when unarmed, keeping tabs on enemies etc..); but it would make getting around a planet a pain.. maybe use AD to walk around a planet according to what side you land on it: ie. land on the bottom, press Right to go right and continue in that direction until you land on another planet, up jumps and down rolls/crouches/dives.
it would need to be tested.
It would be better to keep the directions consistent, i.e. D is always clockwise and A is always widdershins. Alternately, the player could always be upright and the world could rotate. That might be slower, though.
I really like the idea of the world rotating around the player. That would be trippy. But if that is too hard to program, then consistent directions for controls is the next best thing.

But the rotating world thing is still the best.
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Postby mattk210 » 2008.10.22 (10:46)

I actually have experience in this area. The world rotating can work, but when going fast it gives me, and some of my friends, motion sickness. Not everyone though. For my game the world rotates but at a maximum speed, so if you do an 180 flip the camera takes some time to adjust (i actually have this 'easing' code ready if we want to use it). This works fine for my game because anything that would result in a flip is bad, so it would be intentionally avoided anyway. Even slow rotation can become uncomfortable after long periods of time. The idea of clockwise/counterclockwise buttons works in theory but it's quite difficult to adjust your muscle memory to realize that pressing left sometimes makes you go right. I also thought we might use the sonic method: once you start running, you keep going along the ground, even if the ground is curved and this results in the reverse to the keys. On the weekend I'll mess with more control schemes.

Motion blur: In openGL or something real I imagine it would be plausible but in flash motion blur is very cpu-intensive. You can have dynamic horizontal and vertical blur, but for diagonal you need to use a convoluted method that works with pixels on the CPU (read: very slooow). In my game I experimented with blur and decided the best approach was artificial blur: used in MM for the dash: it draws a faded image of where you were last time so there's a sort of 'trail'. With smart usage of the bitmap methods in flash this can be quite fast - I had it 'blurring' the whole sceen like this at full (40fps) speed.

@condog: world rotation is not hard to program in flash, probably a lot harder in something else.

@art styles: mixing them can work, just look at samorost2. In fact, one style for the static (background) and one for the active (characters, enemies) could actually help you distinguish what 'exists' and what is part of the background. More than 2 can look bad though.

edit: also, from the design side, i was thinking about the different characters. some slight tweaks:
1) a hovering guy, pretty much like what you see in the demo - very maneuverable but no combat
2) an athletic guy, no propulsion in space but very fast at moving on planets. If we have combat, it should be at close range with this guy
3) the spring guy: i kind of like the plunger but that's not my area - i think he'd be quite unwieldy to use with jumping as the only form of movement, so balance that out with projectile combat and the knockback from the gun allowing him to maneuver slightly in space.

I also think there should be some penalty for changing chars, otherwise it's just like one character but with the annoyance of pressing a button for different modes. Maybe it would make you vulnerable for some time so you can't do it in a firefight, maybe you need to be at a 'swap station', i don't know.

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Postby Condog » 2008.10.22 (11:08)

mattk210 wrote:@condog: world rotation is not hard to program in flash, probably a lot harder in something else.
Okay. What program are the majority of coders most comfortable with? please say flash please say flash please say flash please say flash please say flash please say flash please say flash
mattk210 wrote:I also think there should be some penalty for changing chars, otherwise it's just like one character but with the annoyance of pressing a button for different modes. Maybe it would make you vulnerable for some time so you can't do it in a firefight, maybe you need to be at a 'swap station', i don't know.
I had a few ideas for this:
* Swap Station :: Like your idea, there is a predetermined area that you can swap on. If we were to use this, it would be best placed in an inconspicuous spot, otherwise it's presence could give away any puzzle that require switching forms.
* Stationary Swap :: You can change froms anywhere you want, but you have to be standing still to do it. This is probably a good option, but it might pose a problem if a situation arises where you are technically moving a tiny, tiny amount.
* Swap Meter :: Collecting gold (i'm calling it gold because i don't know what else to call it, or even if we will have it in the game) increases that meter by a small amount, and when it's full you can change. Not the best idea.
* Swap Tokens :: You can change anytime, but you can only change once per token you have. Each 'Solar System' (Episode) starts you off with 5 tokens, and you need to use them accordingly. Shitty idea, don't even know why I bothered..
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Postby mattk210 » 2008.10.22 (11:18)

i actually don't want world rotation but would implement it if everyone wants. I would like to use Flash but if we want to add lots of computationally expensive things like everyone's getting excited about, it's not really an option.

I like the stationary swap idea, don't worry, it won't be difficult to implement. Could add for some interesting puzzles trying to stop on moving levels. I am also actually alternatively interested in 'swap tokens', if the focus of the game is to stay as one character, and swapping is a big bonus. Like you choose a char to play the level as, and if you swap it's a big decision for a specific situation and not something you just keep doing to make your life slightly easier. That would add an element of choice. (However, swap tokens would be preset at the beginning of the level and not accumulated over levels, coz having your freedom restricted like that would suck)

Your idea with the universe split up into galaxies split up into other stuff etc I can't say I'm a big fan of. Unless it was a flexible hub like SM64. The game shouldn't fall into such a pattern, as soon as it does it should be broken. (just my thoughts, and I know it completely goes against N)

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Postby Commander » 2008.10.22 (12:24)

Could I be a leader, as I am a leader, not a follower.

Or, at least an artist of some sort, whatever is needed. I signed up to the site, I just need to be accepted.

EDIT: would it be possible to have an "easing screen"? The easing screen would work together with this http://www.assembla.com/spaces/image_an ... 3tab7jnrAJ, as the protagonist gains velocity, so does the screen, moving wherever he does. When he makes a sudden stop, the screen doesn't jerk to a stop, it eases. Sort of like hitting a cushion then easily bouncing back.

I had an attachment, but SWF's aren't allowed.

Unless that was such an obvious thing, I now sound like an idiot.
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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2008.10.22 (20:25)

Whoah, I didn't realize we had even begun talking about the language we're gonna use.
I mean, I like your enthusiasm, matt, but let's actually decide this before we get to coding.
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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Postby LittleViking » 2008.10.22 (21:53)

You guys seem to have a pretty solid idea of how the game will go. (At least for the most part. I see there are still some parts up in the air.) Why don't we get started on a design document at the Assmebla wiki for this platformer while deciding that last few things. Anyone can edit the document and add things until we all agree it's finished. A design document is "a description of a software product that a software designer writes in order to give a software development team an overall guidance of the architecture of the software project. ... The document should give a fairly complete description while maintaining a high-level (ed: abstract, summarizing, no code) view of the software."

Basically, write up a summary of the game as it stands. Break it into sections; one for planet properties, one for basic enemy groups, one for general player movements. Since the wiki will be active at first, try not to overwrite each other's work. Write out your contribution in a text editor and refresh the page to the latest edition before you edit something onto the page.

Also, are we skipping the scorched earth minigame? It still might be a useful test of our skills, and once its systems are in place, it shouldn't be a big jump to a platformer, but if you guys are gung-ho on getting to the real game, I won't hold it back.

Edit: Also, a comment. The coders in IRC seemed to want to try out Ruby, Python or Java.
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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2008.10.22 (22:49)

Nice as it is, I think Ruby would be too slow.
Of those choices, I'll strongly advocate Python. I was ready to start sharpening my C++ skills, though, so I'd be content with that as well.
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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Postby Geti » 2008.10.23 (03:53)

i would not recommend ruby for a game at all. python quite probably.
in any case, for the camera model, i think it should either follow the character's orientation, or ease around. not be static at all. this game seems to be about movement, so that should apply just about everywhere. ill go have a look at the description thing.
argh i have to go, ill expand later or not. weapons? :D
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Postby mattk210 » 2008.10.23 (05:14)

to clarify, i was not programming the game. I was programming a test/prototype to see what the game would feel like and whether it could work, before going into it full scale, which I thought was normal practice for something that has never really been done before (it worked, as i uncovered some potential issues we may have to design the game around). If they can concept-art, why can't I concept-code?

I'm most comfortable with C++ out of those, but I've always wanted to learn Python. C++ is of course not mac-compatible. Personally, i'd want to use flash because it's stupidly simple to use, works very well with vectors (and we seem to be moving towards a cartoony style, plus vectors rotate a lot smoother and I think a lot of stuff will be rotating in this game), and it's easily cross-platform. Speed is a major issue, but I can't see us doing anything complex enough to need more than that (if we design cleverly). Ruby is very foreign to me.

I too want to start with some minigame based on the engine's physics (I don't know of scorched earth), but the level designers won't have much to do if we do that.

EDIT: looked up scorched earth, could work but it seems a little boring to me.

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Postby squibbles » 2008.10.23 (05:33)

matt, I don't see why we can't input multiple minigames unlocked by collecting bonus items in difficult puzzle areas to the side of the main "quest". It'll just mean a biut more work, but overall i think adding 2 or three unlockables would benefit the game greatly.

On top of this, yeah, there is no reason why you can't do concept coding, and in fact, i think it's a good idea...I've already started writing a song as well, it's a good way of showing what ideas you are having.
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Postby mattk210 » 2008.10.23 (05:37)

I think the point of the minigames was to get something out there fast so we can see how we work together and have something to show off to everyone, before starting the main game. Unlockable minigames are possible, but not related.

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Postby Geti » 2008.10.23 (06:06)

things i think are important to get done
-particle systems
----ive outlined what id love to be able to work with before, look back a page or 3.
-decisions on what to sim and what to fake, and what to do both for.
----planet orbits can be faked until something big disrupts them, but they player should always be in the simulation
-visual art direction
----im leaning to a similar style to how me and condog are designing, cartoony, with a hint of sketchyness but bright overall.
-music direction
----ambient techno? breakbeats? distorted guitar? classical style? the choice is yours musicians.

anyone else got another?
i still like the flippy camera idea.. maybe when we have something workable we can test all the various camera ideas out. but having a flippy camera makes wasd or the arrows very practical, for use with either the mouse or other keys...
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Postby mattk210 » 2008.10.23 (07:58)

made a very simple design document scaffold. Let's all contribute!

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Postby Condog » 2008.10.23 (08:36)

About the planetoids, it would be good to consider the option of making them totally stationary. We wouldn't have to worry about how they would be affected by each others gravity, which would be a lot easier on the coders, and it would make custom levels easier to create if you didnt have to worry about how planets interact with each other. We could just assume that the planetoids are in a state of perfect harmony, that their respective gravities keep them all together in perfect syncronisation as they orbit their sun. Also, I believe the rotating screen idea would be more practical if the major landmasses on the screen didn't move. Opinions?

Also, somethings I think would be good to discuss: How complex is this game going to be in relation to N? Is it going to be passive-style gameplay like N?
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Postby jackass » 2008.10.23 (08:42)

So am i to beleive that this game is going to have a level creator ... will it be the same sort of basis of n ? or completly new
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Postby mattk210 » 2008.10.23 (08:44)

I accidentally ticked one of the milestone boxes. Sorry! Can LV reverse it?

@condog: passive is easier to code, we should start with that. There's no reason planets would be stationary in real life and it seems like a cheap fix, but it may be necessary. (Also, i think I may be able to find some way to calculate 'perfect' orbits, so that in combination with massless players/enemies should ensure that stuff only collides if we want it to. stationary planets won't affect practicality of the rotating screen.

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Postby LittleViking » 2008.10.23 (10:12)

About the flippy camera, I think it would be too disorienting for small planets, but I would definitely support it if the planets are large. If you can see two or three full planets on screen at once, then the camera would be flipping way too much to play for very long. But if the planets are large enough that you can only see, say, 1/8th of the planet's arc at one time, then the camera wouldn't move too much, and it would probably be worse to have the static camera with large planets anyway. Also, I think large planets are an idea worth considering. I always pictured smaller planets, but large ones could give a more epic feel.

Another thing: Feel free to refer to the controls as "WASD" if you want, but the controls will definitely have options for changing them. We have too many Dvorak users here to lock the game to a Qwerty setup.
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Postby mattk210 » 2008.10.23 (12:08)

LV has an interesting idea - but I think with very large planets it would be very slow paced and the whole interacting gravity of planets thing wouldn't be as relevant. It would certainly make the rotating screen idea less nauseating though (like really, it IS nauseating, trust me)

EDIT: this wouldn't help the camera thing, but I guess there's nothing stopping us from having really big AND really small planets. Like a scale model of the solar system would have a pretty much flat surface for the sun (on which we could put some platforms and stuff), and the earth would probably fit on-screen. Like in SMG where some planets are so big they're pretty much a normal flat level. And epic is good.

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Postby Zora_S_Kenneth » 2008.10.23 (15:11)

For programming: C++, C#, or Python. Or I can cannibalize a 3D game engine as needed (C++ and C#)

And: http://d.imagehost.org/download/0423/Ne ... oncept.mov

And: Swap Station FTW

And: Planetoids, LV.

And: This is fun.
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Postby LittleViking » 2008.10.23 (21:11)

Zora_S_Kenneth wrote:And: Planetoids, LV.
Wow, good argument. You've totally convinced me that my idea was stupid and the fact that we've been using the word "plantoids" requires us to make the planets small. I should have known that any variation on the implied small-planets theme would have been quashed by those three letters at the end of the word.

*roll eyes*

Think about the gameplay of it. Small planets were in the original plan because we were planning on making a scorched earth clone. The planets were small so you could bank your shot around a few gravity holes on the way to your opponent. It wouldn't make sense to have planets so big that you couldn't even see your enemy, let alone use the gravity effects to your advantage. As a platformer, large surfaces might be an advantage. They would be less chaotic to run on, and they would leave more room for terrestrial puzzles and enemies. It would definitely change the gameplay from fast, weaving, slingshotting action closer to the speed of a normal platformer, but I don't see that as a bad thing. Just a gameplay change.
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Postby Zora_S_Kenneth » 2008.10.23 (22:31)

From a gravitational point of view, large planets takes away most the fun of using multiple gravities to your own advantage and it almost becomes a normal platformer with a few extra bodies to walk on. But too small, and it will end up a bit too fast paced. In some cases, one might be focusing on getting a shot through all those bodies (maybe) to admire the work we put in.

So maybe planets that are at maximum 150 pixels in diameter and as an average about 100 but no smaller than 50 pixels will work just fine for both platformer and planetoids styles. This also adds quite a bit of variety, which as I see it, is a good thing. For one, a variety of sizes gives us an option of making different game-play environments, allowing us to sort of satisfy both sides (i.e. LV and matt).
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Postby Geti » 2008.10.23 (23:11)

why cant we have both? seriously. if we use the flippy camera model we can have some bits that are hectic and nauseating and large looping slooow parts, and a mix of both. think jumping from a large planet into an asteroid belt, being barely held to the asteroids by their feeble gravity but able to do lots of jumps (and push some asteroids into other ones, yay) and flipping around a bit then back onto the surface. weapons that use particles (like some of the enemeies are going to be using) are more practical either planet to planet or along the surface of a large planet, not around a small one (the arcs would be crazy).

i like the idea of large and small, and some really large planets, for the epicness. if the planets are scaled up, the planetary enemies will be terrifyingly huge, and some of the cannons could be very large aswell.
im for a mix of both, on the whole large-ish, but still able to be traversed by the player easily.
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