GOD or SATAN?

Debate serious and interesting topics, rant about politics or pop culture, or otherwise converse in essay form about your opinions. The rules of conduct here are a little stricter.
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Postby Lachesis » 2009.09.09 (23:56)

Tsukatu wrote:
nichtmesister wrote:I prefer Cthulhu. He is a manifestation of extreme terror and evil.
I pose this as a serious question, because you nutjobs fascinate me to no end:
Why do you prefer terror to euphoria?
If it's because you think you'll be on the terror-giving end, then presumably given all the people smarter, more evil, and more capable than you are going to be on the receiving end, why do you think you are an exception?
Wow...
You actually thought that I was serious...
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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2009.09.10 (00:12)

nichtmesister wrote:
Tsukatu wrote:
nichtmesister wrote:I prefer Cthulhu. He is a manifestation of extreme terror and evil.
I pose this as a serious question, because you nutjobs fascinate me to no end:
Why do you prefer terror to euphoria?
If it's because you think you'll be on the terror-giving end, then presumably given all the people smarter, more evil, and more capable than you are going to be on the receiving end, why do you think you are an exception?
Wow...
You actually thought that I was serious...
Well, with the name, the avatar... I dunno, you were cleverly disguised as one of those retards.
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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Postby bobaganuesh_2 » 2009.09.11 (06:10)

sawyerscott52 wrote:i'm atheist, so i don't believe in GOD or HELL. i just wanted to see Christians and Satanists battle it out.
yeah, like we really need another bobaganuesh character around here who can't make debate topics for jack squat and doesn't seem to know anything about religion worth a rat's dick on a Tuesday morning.

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Postby Lachesis » 2009.09.12 (01:38)

I'm actually agnostic...
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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2009.09.12 (22:48)

nichtmesister wrote:I'm actually agnostic...
Er... okay. And I have a sandwich. But let's stop talking about irrelevant things and actually answer the question.
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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Postby SlappyMcGee » 2009.09.12 (22:58)

The new sigatar are a major upgrade, somehow.
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Postby blue_tetris » 2009.09.13 (00:01)

I would pick God over Satan.
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Postby jinxed_07 » 2009.09.13 (18:20)

picking satan is just stupid

God


and what the heck
it's god or satan
why is Cthulhu being mentioned?

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Postby Lachesis » 2009.09.13 (20:43)

jinxed_07 wrote: why is Cthulhu being mentioned?
I was being an idiot.
/me slaps self with a rather large trout.

If I were to pick one, it would be God, because hell is retarded.
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Postby Zer0 » 2010.02.01 (02:42)

Cant decide. Satan even used to be an angel, if I go with him, that makes me evil. If I go with god, I will be good, but restricted from lots of stuff. Like these forums I think. :P
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Postby otters~1 » 2010.02.01 (02:46)

This thread was several months dead, man.
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Postby sheganican » 2010.02.01 (03:00)

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints, the sinners are much more fun."
-Billy Joel

On the other hand, I'd rather be a content little person floating in the clouds than an ugly demon sentenced to eternal damnation in hell.

I wish there was an alternative middle-ground where I could laugh at Helen Keller jokes and at the same time not be on fire. I was never fond of Christianity because it always seemed like "If you're a good person you won't suffer in hell" as apposed to "If you're a good person we'll put you in heaven". I thought God was supposed to be cool.

And I don't see what's so wrong about Zer0's contribution to the thread.


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Postby squibbles » 2010.02.01 (03:45)

I can't understand people who "side with Satan". I mean, to me God is a being which represents that which is good and just, and since those traits are entirely subjective, God to me is a divine being who you can use to justify your actions, a mentor along the moral path your subconscious takes you and a role model of your beliefs, regardless of what they are.

It's not hard to believe then that I'm one of those people who believe all the divinities are the same, and yes, this does include "Satan". I think to follow Satan is to choose to neglect your own basic desires and beliefs, not those of another individual.

As a side note, I consider myself a Satanist who believes in and worships God. My belief system is based around the assumption that my interpretation of holy literature is the correct one, and that the Christian establishment has had it fundamentally wrong for the entirety of their existence. I trust in "God", however my beliefs are almost entirely opposed to the conventional Christian faith.
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Tsukatu wrote:I don't know what it is, squibbles, but my brain keeps inserting "black" into random parts of your posts these days.
I totally just read that as, "I'd hate to be the only black guy stuck using v1.4."
[/ispoiler]

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Postby smartalco » 2010.02.01 (05:24)

sawyerscott52 wrote:and i know about 99.999999999 percent of you disagree with me.
always that extra 00.000000001 percent, though.
Actually if there are only 00.000000001% of people who agree with you, and with the total population of this forum being 1319, there is less then a 1 in 75,000,000 chance of there being someone on this forum who agrees with you. (In fact, that puts the chance of anyone in the world agreeing with you at 7%, so statistically, assuming you are part of the population of the earth, there is only a 1 in 14 chance you actually exist)

As for the discussion at hand:
The best description of my religious beliefs is non-denominational christian, so you can guess what I choose.
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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2010.02.01 (07:23)

squibbles wrote:As a side note, I consider myself a Satanist who believes in and worships God. My belief system is based around the assumption that my interpretation of holy literature is the correct one, and that the Christian establishment has had it fundamentally wrong for the entirety of their existence. I trust in "God", however my beliefs are almost entirely opposed to the conventional Christian faith.
So how are you not a non-denominational Christian? If you "don't understand why people side with Satan" and you follow Christian scriptures, how are you at all a Satanist?
Not to mention Satanism and Christianity are kinda mutually exclusive...
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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Postby squibbles » 2010.02.01 (10:58)

Tsukatu wrote:
squibbles wrote:As a side note, I consider myself a Satanist who believes in and worships God. My belief system is based around the assumption that my interpretation of holy literature is the correct one, and that the Christian establishment has had it fundamentally wrong for the entirety of their existence. I trust in "God", however my beliefs are almost entirely opposed to the conventional Christian faith.
So how are you not a non-denominational Christian? If you "don't understand why people side with Satan" and you follow Christian scriptures, how are you at all a Satanist?
Not to mention Satanism and Christianity are kinda mutually exclusive...
Well, I believe in the Christian god, but I'm convinced that the Bible was one giant misinterpretation. I believe that the Christian god actually does not feel warmly towards the christian scriptures, but rather himself is morally aligned with the values Satanism teach.

That is to say, I believe the Christian god is a satanist.
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Tsukatu wrote:I don't know what it is, squibbles, but my brain keeps inserting "black" into random parts of your posts these days.
I totally just read that as, "I'd hate to be the only black guy stuck using v1.4."
[/ispoiler]

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Postby 乳头的早餐谷物 » 2010.02.01 (11:17)

squibbles wrote:
Tsukatu wrote:
squibbles wrote:As a side note, I consider myself a Satanist who believes in and worships God. My belief system is based around the assumption that my interpretation of holy literature is the correct one, and that the Christian establishment has had it fundamentally wrong for the entirety of their existence. I trust in "God", however my beliefs are almost entirely opposed to the conventional Christian faith.
So how are you not a non-denominational Christian? If you "don't understand why people side with Satan" and you follow Christian scriptures, how are you at all a Satanist?
Not to mention Satanism and Christianity are kinda mutually exclusive...
Well, I believe in the Christian god, but I'm convinced that the Bible was one giant misinterpretation. I believe that the Christian god actually does not feel warmly towards the christian scriptures, but rather himself is morally aligned with the values Satanism teach.

That is to say, I believe the Christian god is a satanist.
Um. So what *is* your interpretation of holy literature? Can you, like, point to passages and give your alternate explanation or something?
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Postby squibbles » 2010.02.01 (13:33)

-- wrote:
squibbles wrote:
Tsukatu wrote:So how are you not a non-denominational Christian? If you "don't understand why people side with Satan" and you follow Christian scriptures, how are you at all a Satanist?
Not to mention Satanism and Christianity are kinda mutually exclusive...
Well, I believe in the Christian god, but I'm convinced that the Bible was one giant misinterpretation. I believe that the Christian god actually does not feel warmly towards the christian scriptures, but rather himself is morally aligned with the values Satanism teach.

That is to say, I believe the Christian god is a satanist.
Um. So what *is* your interpretation of holy literature? Can you, like, point to passages and give your alternate explanation or something?
I don't mean that I interperet the bible differently, but that I interperet god differently. I think that when the bible was written, the author had misinterpreted God, and was essentially writing the wrong stuff.
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Tsukatu wrote:I don't know what it is, squibbles, but my brain keeps inserting "black" into random parts of your posts these days.
I totally just read that as, "I'd hate to be the only black guy stuck using v1.4."
[/ispoiler]

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Postby 乳头的早餐谷物 » 2010.02.01 (13:58)

squibbles wrote:
-- wrote:
squibbles wrote:Well, I believe in the Christian god, but I'm convinced that the Bible was one giant misinterpretation. I believe that the Christian god actually does not feel warmly towards the christian scriptures, but rather himself is morally aligned with the values Satanism teach.

That is to say, I believe the Christian god is a satanist.
Um. So what *is* your interpretation of holy literature? Can you, like, point to passages and give your alternate explanation or something?
I don't mean that I interperet the bible differently, but that I interperet god differently. I think that when the bible was written, the author had misinterpreted God, and was essentially writing the wrong stuff.
But that's silly, because if you say you believe in the Christian god, by definition you must believe in the concept of God laid out in Christian scriptures. If your belief differs from that of mainstream Christianity, which it obviously does, you must be interpreting the Bible differently. If your god is not based upon a heterodox interpretation of the Bible and is not based upon an orthodox interpretation of the Bible, then it is not based upon the Bible at all and so is in no way the Christian god.
squibbles wrote:I mean, to me God is a being which represents that which is good and just, and since those traits are entirely subjective, God to me is a divine being who you can use to justify your actions, a mentor along the moral path your subconscious takes you and a role model of your beliefs, regardless of what they are.

It's not hard to believe then that I'm one of those people who believe all the divinities are the same, and yes, this does include "Satan".
So do you actually believe in a specific God who is real and exists and is the all-powerful and all-knowing creator, or do you just consider God to be a theoretical construct that represents our good nature? If you are serious about your belief in a real Christian god who is also diametrically opposed to traditional Christian beliefs, maybe you could explain exactly what sorts of things your god does and does not stand for.
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Postby otters~1 » 2010.02.02 (02:28)

After actually reading some of this thread, I'd just like to point out that it's pretty easy to believe in neither God nor Satan.



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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2010.02.02 (20:10)

I imagine you could be talking about one of two kinds of Satanism, which is a distinction I've rambled a bit about in the past.
The actual Church of Satan, itself, was a pseudo-religion formed by one Dr. Anton LaVey, and it's a total rejection of Christian scripture, the existence of its God, etc. It is called Satanism because it aligns its philosophy with the fictional mythological character of Satan, and also to show its open hostility to Christianity in particular. It's basically antitheism plus some hypocritical nonsense about black magic. If you believe in any kind of god apart from yourself, it is impossible to be this kind of Satanist and have anything positive to do with Christianity.
Otherwise, there are people who worship Satan, himself, whom they believe actually exists. If you were to call yourself a Christian despite worshipping Satan, you've dug yourself into quite a ditch. For one thing, the Christian God doesn't want you to have anyone before Him, so you're already violating a very easy but very important Commandment with that one. This kind of Satan is also the embodiment of absolute evil, seeing as how he did the most wicked thing conceivable by challenging God. Note also that Satan was an angel (and not only an angel, but the most righteous one), but his crime was so evil that God made Hell in order to punish him. You don't have nearly as much of an in with God as Satan did, and you also have knowledge of how terrible it is a thing to align yourself with Satan, so I simply can't see how you could possibly think you're not ending up in a lake of fire. You call yourself a Christian, meaning you accept the whole Christian framework of Heaven and Hell, as well as your destination based on how good of a person you are, which itself is detailed painstakingly and unambiguously in the scriptures... but you're choosing to do exactly the wrong thing? Why are you making an explicit choice to be as evil as you possibly can?
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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Postby squibbles » 2010.02.03 (00:34)

Ah, actually, I was referring to the former Satanism.

I think the easiest way to describe it is as a belief separate from any named religion (that I know of), which borrows heavily from other beliefs, predominantly those of LaVey brand Satanism, and Christianity. I think the parts that I take from Christianity are the parts which are now (I believe) considered the most fundamental (Don't be raping, murdering and lying) as well as their god. I imagine I chose that god as I can actually relate to him as a white male (but then that was the point of his aesthetic design, so it doesn't really mean much that that resonates well with me). From Satanism I borrow some of the moral values and beliefs, such as the focus on carnal fulfillment, and the attainment of that which you desire to be only possible if you attempt to take it, rather then waiting. I also imagine that my concept of the human god coexisting with an omnipotent, ethereal being is based on the divine hierarchy found in many of the religions pre-christianity, with humans being similar to demi-gods, created to be able to change reality the way that they see fit, thus making it at least a little less hypocritical to have both conflicting beliefs where divinity is concerned.

I dunno, this is really difficult to explain, so I probably shouldn't have brought it up at all. I hope that you can actually understand this, because I dunno if it makes any sense at all. :/
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Tsukatu wrote:I don't know what it is, squibbles, but my brain keeps inserting "black" into random parts of your posts these days.
I totally just read that as, "I'd hate to be the only black guy stuck using v1.4."
[/ispoiler]

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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2010.02.03 (19:52)

squibbles wrote:I hope that you can actually understand this, because I dunno if it makes any sense at all. :/
I understand it perfectly, and I understand that it makes no sense at all. Neither your belief in something nor your ability to convey it coherently have any bearing on whether or not the idea is sensible.

In an effort to avoid drowning you in words, I'll bring up my two main concerns:

The moral teachings of religions are given context by their existential claims. Christianity does not teach you not to kill because it's a bad idea, but not to kill because you will get skullfucked by demons if you do, and this presupposes the existence of demons who are sadistic, a place for them to be, and a God who will deliver you to that place after your death. If you do not believe that these demons exist, then you should not find the reason that Christianity gives you to refrain from killing to be particularly motivating. For another relevant example, consider that Satanism instructs you to indulge your carnal desires because you are unburdened by the oppression that would be imposed upon you by Christian teachings (with explicit mention of the Seven not-so-Deadly Sins and the backwards Seven Virtues). If you believe in the smallest part of Christianity's existential claims, then you should recognize that the Seven Deadly Sins will send you to Hell, that living by the Seven Virtues will ensure your place in Heaven, and that doing the opposite is profoundly stupid; Satanism's reasons for you to indulge presuppose that the existential claims made by Christianity are false.
It'd have been one thing to try to reconcile, say, Christianity and Islam, where your primary points of contention would probably revolve around the divinity of Jesus (according to the 4th Sura of the Koran, Jesus was never executed). But you've done something rather interesting: I can't think of a pair religions that could possibly have more of their doctrines in direct and even explicit conflict with one another than the ones you've chosen. Practically every teaching of one of these argues on grounds that the other denies; if you believe either, it makes no sense to believe in any of the teachings of the other.
If it is the case that you follow the same teachings as a religion but not for the reasons the religions give, that does not qualify you as an adherent of that religion. I refrain from killing because it would cause me great psychological distress and because it would be a tremendous practical burden to get away with it even if my conscience could cope with it in the first place. I do not believe in a God who will judge me nor in demons who will punish me; it is not on their account that I do not kill. Even though I share a rule to live by, I do so for entirely different reasons, and therefore I have no business calling myself a Christian. Even if I hold by every rule that a Christian should live by, I would have to hold to all of them for reasons that include those founded upon the existential claims made by Christianity in order to call myself a Christian. If you follow Christian teachings only "because they seem like good ideas," you would be dishonest to call yourself a Christian.

But secondly, you're doing something that it continues to surprise me happens with alarming frequency: you are arbitrarily piecing together your own religion without realizing the implications of doing so. The primary implication of this is, obviously, that you are making it all the fuck up. It's one thing to have someone convince you of some nonsense they made up, and that's embarrassing all on its own, but to actually go through the conscious creative process of spawning arbitrary facts from your imagination only to follow it up with genuine belief in its validity is... I'm not even sure I can think of a suitable phrase here... mind-bogglingly ignorant, totally intellectually dishonest... utterly fucking insane. It's just... I really feel I need to emphasize this more: you are making things up, and then you are believing them to be true. You are making things up. And then you are believing them to be true.
This mindset is particularly frustrating to me because people who do this are so close to understanding the nature of religion without actually making that last hair's-breadth connection. Every time someone changes churches or denominations because the God of that church or denomination doesn't share his views on some trivial social issue, every time someone flips through the Bible and absorbs "love thy neighbor" but skips right over "stone the bride to death if she is not a virgin," every time someone invents details of their god on the fly despite the total lack of those details in the scriptures or the works of any religious authority, without realizing that the religion they hold to is more than not an invention of their own mind, I die a little on the inside. And if you want to get ironic, it's not a stretch to imagine someone saying that this makes the Baby Jesus cry, which is itself the invention of a quality and proscription of it to the Baby Jesus who exists only in his mind.

Riddle me those.
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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Postby squibbles » 2010.02.04 (00:46)

Actually, I think you're mostly right - you've certainly made me realise something about myself here.

The problem I have with your first point I think, is the assumption that all Christians only behave the way they do out of hell-fear. As it is, I know a few Christians who don't even believe in an afterlife; they define themselves as Christian because they opened a copy of the bible and thought "Whoa, this makes so much sense to me. I agree completely with the moral values taught in this old book", and who are we to say that that's an invalid definition of a self?

But more importantly, I refuse to prescribe to a moral standard merely because somebody else wrote a book, implying that it may be a good idea. To me the one most important thing is my freedom, and that's reflected in the way that I've pieced together my moral values - I only do things /because/ I think they're good ideas.


The second point you raised, I realise now is absolutely correct, and possibly along the lines of what I've been trying to word this whole time. I have just made it up. Or rather, what I've done is identify the values which I respect, and those which I detest, and I've chosen to live my life along those standards to avoid hypocrisy. So yes, I've made up my own religion which makes little sense, but I understand it, because it's drawn from what I think is just. I think all I'm practicing is a blind faith in my own beliefs, which is in my opinion, far more justifiable in the conventional blind faith in the beliefs of the writer of a holy scripture, who lived thousands of years ago under completely different circumstances.
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I totally just read that as, "I'd hate to be the only black guy stuck using v1.4."
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Postby t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư » 2010.02.04 (04:06)

squibbles wrote:Actually, I think you're mostly right
Of course. Do you have any idea how ridiculously attractive I am? How could I possibly be wrong?
squibbles wrote:The problem I have with your first point I think, is the assumption that all Christians only behave the way they do out of hell-fear.
Well, not most, anyway. The fact still stands that Christianity teaches rather explicitly that God is the source of morality, and its recommendation is "be good because God wants you to" rather than "be good for goodness' sake." I have never seen it brought up in the Bible that its teachings happen to be good for human solidarity or that they'd benefit a society (with the obvious exception that God won't rain fire and brimstone onto them or direct His armies to slaughter your men and rape their daughters). The moral lessons it gives have its existential claims as their supporting reasoning.
squibbles wrote:As it is, I know a few Christians who don't even believe in an afterlife; they define themselves as Christian because they opened a copy of the bible and thought "Whoa, this makes so much sense to me. I agree completely with the moral values taught in this old book", and who are we to say that that's an invalid definition of a self?
C.S. Lewis, for one. And I happen to agree with him.
"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."

Secondly, I'd accuse them of never having actually read the Bible, since the majority of the evil in it (and the evil in it is the majority of the work) has only ever heard pseudo-plausible excuse by the notion that God works in mysterious ways or some garbage. Without some cop-out like that, I posit that it is simply not possible to construct a functional, non-theistic, moral code from the Holy Bible.
squibbles wrote:But more importantly, I refuse to prescribe to a moral standard merely because somebody else wrote a book, implying that it may be a good idea.
Whoah whoah whoah, hold your horses there. I didn't say the Bible's teachings sucked because it was just some dude writing in a book. My morality is based on something I was convinced of in a book.
squibbles wrote:The second point you raised, I realise now is absolutely correct, and possibly along the lines of what I've been trying to word this whole time. I have just made it up. Or rather, what I've done is identify the values which I respect, and those which I detest, and I've chosen to live my life along those standards to avoid hypocrisy. So yes, I've made up my own religion which makes little sense, but I understand it, because it's drawn from what I think is just. I think all I'm practicing is a blind faith in my own beliefs, which is in my opinion, far more justifiable in the conventional blind faith in the beliefs of the writer of a holy scripture, who lived thousands of years ago under completely different circumstances.
So if you're only coming up with words to live by, why are you calling it a religion? And why are you liking it at all with Christianity and Satanism?
[spoiler="you know i always joked that it would be scary as hell to run into DMX in a dark ally, but secretly when i say 'DMX' i really mean 'Tsukatu'." -kai]"... and when i say 'scary as hell' i really mean 'tight pink shirt'." -kai[/spoiler][/i]
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