N v1.5 Poll: Small Changes

[Pheidippides]

If there's no way to add the new features everyone wants, what are ya waiting for? Rewrite it all!
With classic mode of course :3

QFE. If the technology won't cooperate, roll up your sleeves and go for it. As long as you've got a classic mode to appease the purists (of which I am one), I think everyone would be behind you one hundred percent. Would it be possible to purposefully program some of the more notable glitches into v2.0, though? Like double bounceblock jumps, one-way glitches, and things of that nature. Like lord_day said earlier, removing these would take a lot of flexibility out of the game. But, as long as you're going for v2.0, you could add brand-new stuff to keep the game nuanced...

[otters]

Breaking all of the existing demos that players have spent that last 4 years on would be travesty. The game needs new thing not changes to the old great things.

I still don't understand what you're talking about. What's going to "break" the demos?

[Raif]

Breaking all of the existing demos that players have spent that last 4 years on would be travesty. The game needs new thing not changes to the old great things.

I still don't understand what you're talking about. What's going to "break" the demos?

Changing the physics of the game?

[danield9tqh]

This is a question I'm especially glad to hear you ask. I know that many of us consider chaingun inconsistency a good thing, along with the various one-way glitches, to say nothing of double bounce block jumping and a few game mechanics that aren't really considered glitches anymore. But off the top of my head, something negative that could be changed for the better is walljumping off of trap doors.

So, I guess the answer to your poll is, depends what parts of the game you want to change. (Like, any thoughts on updating the level editor? There wasn't anything about that specifically in the blog or the thread.)

Yea I think that it depends on what you want to change. I also like the chaingun inconsistency. I think the seeker drone should come after you always unless you reach a certain speed and can run passed them. AND THE LEVEL EDITOR. PLEASE CHANGE THE KEYBOARD KEYS NEEDED TO MAKE LEVELS, at least to something more "common" try just plain letters then everyone no matter what kind of keyboard you have can use the level editor. If you haven't realized by avatar... i have a mac and there is no insert key.

[Spawn of Yanni]

Breaking all of the existing demos that players have spent that last 4 years on would be travesty. The game needs new thing not changes to the old great things.

I still don't understand what you're talking about. What's going to "break" the demos?

Assuming you're not in some classic mode, something like a fix for the stuttering slope problem would mean that any v1.4 demo in which a player reacts to the ninja stuttering on a slope would be microscopically different in v1.5, which would lead to other issues elsewhere in the demo in a butterfly-effect-esque manner.

[Vyacheslav]

Maybe throw in more tile styles?

[Pheidippides]

Maybe throw in more tile styles?

I feel like the current palette allows for more than enough variety as-is. Adding more complex tiles would compromise the simplistic charm of the game. The new tiles were one thing I particularly disliked about N+, and my feelings on that game were probably more positive than most.

Also, what are the plans for the new editor? I hope the keyboard interface is kept for the tiles. Point-and-click would slow things down considerably.

[Kablizzy]

Reset the highscores, as you do every time you launch, and classic mode would be awesome.

[EddyMataGallos]

I think that losing all highscores is a bad idea.
I also think that having two diferent leaderboards (1.4 and 1.5) wouldnt have success, or maybe, i dont know, but im sure that i'll last much more time to get as competitive as the original one.
I think that the best idea is not changing that thing that makes the old highscores crash.
But if they must crash, of course, create something "classical mode", or n1.4 integration leaderboards, or something like that.
Anyway, i know a lot of people who wont be able to highscore again 500 levels.

[otters]

Breaking all of the existing demos that players have spent that last 4 years on would be travesty. The game needs new thing not changes to the old great things.

I still don't understand what you're talking about. What's going to "break" the demos?

Changing the physics of the game?

Only in 1.5.

To be honest, I think we need some conclusive definition of "bugs".

[aids]

Maybe throw in more tile styles?

I feel like the current palette allows for more than enough variety as-is. Adding more complex tiles would compromise the simplistic charm of the game.

I wouldn't really want more 'complex tiles' per se, but I do know a few off-hand I'd like to see implemented.

• E-tiles, but circular
• peak tiles, which are just a 2Q and 2W in the same square
• possibly other combinations of 2 and 3 tiles within the same tile, or maybe the option to 'stack' multiple tiles on one square

That's about it. Single-tile circles and better 2/3 tile combinations would be good with me.

Maybe throw in more tile styles?

Also, what are the plans for the new editor? I hope the keyboard interface is kept for the tiles. Point-and-click would slow things down considerably.

The editor really needs work. It should be usable with only the keyboard, so that the arrow keys move the pointer, and maybe 'enter' places objects. I'd like to see it placed outside the window of a full-screen N. The text in the 'edit mode' really gets annoying, maybe an option to hide it. You don't necessarily need more objects (a chaingun drone Nan'd becomes a turret, same with a laser) but you should allow the user to do more with what they're given. How about diagonal doors and oneways? I'm sure there are more suggestions, but that it from me.

[aerodynamic]

Also, what are the plans for the new editor? I hope the keyboard interface is kept for the tiles. Point-and-click would slow things down considerably.

This reminds me: As a mac user (more specifically macbook), I was at first extremely frustrated and disappointed when I opened NED only to come to the (false) conclusion that it was impossible to map on a mac because their keyboards (or at least their macbooks' keyboards) don't have any page_up, page_down, insert, home, or delete keys (ok, there is a delete key, but it doesn't get you into the tile editor like it should). While I eventually figured it out, plenty of searching proved that I was far from the only person to face this obstacle. It would be nice if these keys could be changed to other keys like 5, 6, 7, 8, T(iles), O(bjects), H(ome) etc. Having N work on macs is great, but not (apparently) being able to use the editor is not, and I think this should be addressed, if it hasn't been already...

AND THE LEVEL EDITOR. PLEASE CHANGE THE KEYBOARD KEYS NEEDED TO MAKE LEVELS, at least to something more "common" try just plain letters then everyone no matter what kind of keyboard you have can use the level editor. If you haven't realized by avatar... i have a mac and there is no insert key.

Just noticed it's already been mentioned... missed it, sorry...

[Kablizzy]

I think that losing all highscores is a bad idea.
I also think that having two diferent leaderboards (1.4 and 1.5) wouldnt have success, or maybe, i dont know, but im sure that i'll last much more time to get as competitive as the original one.
I think that the best idea is not changing that thing that makes the old highscores crash.
But if they must crash, of course, create something "classical mode", or n1.4 integration leaderboards, or something like that.
Anyway, i know a lot of people who wont be able to highscore again 500 levels.

The only thing that is different this time around is the time between versions. Between v1.3 and v1.4 was incredibly short in comparison to now - maybe a year versus five years. They've reset the highscore boards every new release, and they should certainly do so again. Otherwise, the leaderboards stagnate and there's no reason to highscore the current 500 levels again. It'd be nice to have a leaderboard for current highscores, and then reset like they usually do.

The other option (Taking a page out of Gunbound's book) - Seasons. Highscoring seasons. Lasting weeks, months, maybe a year. Something to keep in mind.

[otters]

OH! Also. Can we have underclock builtin and unlocklable just like overclock?

[Meta Ing]

The only thing that is different this time around is the time between versions.

That's a major thing. Especially considering the time differences between releases is so great. This large gap has given highscorers and speedrunners a very large amount of time to not only make great runs and take many 0ths (some of which are EXTREMELY difficult to replicate), but learn new tricks and find new innovations for several levels previously thought unimprovable. To just completely erase 5+ years of work would kind of suck.*

Although it would be nice to start on a clean board with no hackers**, due to the large gap of time in this particular case, I would much rather just have the hacked scores deleted rather than the entire board... and if that's too much trouble (although hopefully this is being done already for v1.4), then at least create an archive of the runs from this version, or have them available in the possible classic mode, or something.

* This is an understatement
** By hackers, I mean those with runs whose times don't match the demo data, not necessarily the cheated runs made by people like pre-NReality kryX-orange. Basically, if it's possible to do, humanely or through fbf, it's not in my definition of a hacker's run.
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On the main topic, I'm against small changes if they affect the gameplay in any way (like others have said, the "bugs and glitches" like slope stuttering, random chaingun bullets, and the numerous highscore and speedrun tricks have become an integral part of the game), but I'd be open to any changes that add to improve the interface, functionality, or usability of things like level editor, userlevels menu, etc.

[unoriginal name]

Redesign Level editor

I've seen this mentioned a shocking number of times by you highscorers, and I find it kind of funny. On the one hand, you're campaigning vehemently to not change anything at all with the physics, glitches etc. (something, as I mentioned previously, I support) and yet at the same time you're saying we must radically alter the level editor. Don't you find any contradiction in those views?

As a mapper for some time now, I have grown more than accustomed to the quirks of NED. I know that m&r threw it together almost as an afterthought, but I feel that, in an odd way, this is what makes it so great. Of the many level editors I've come across in my days of playing flash games, NED is by far the best. Most that I've used are slow, clunky affairs, more interested in looking pretty than functioning well. NED is nearly the exact opposite, looking like someone dumped a punch card readout onto the game. It looks totally foreign and unworkable at first, but as you start to adjust to it's keyboard-based style, you start to see its brilliance. When you're able to put down objects without the instructions, you realize just how great this thing really is. It encourages you to map by your whim, freely switching out seekers and lasers with the touch of a button. I love being able to do that. There are improvements that could be made (Object copier), but they are minor tweaks, nothing that could fall under the category of "Redesign". v1.5 would need to have some pretty awesome new features to convince me to use a new level editor.

Anyway, that's my rant, don't wear it out.

[TheRealOne]

Redesign Level editor

I've seen this mentioned a shocking number of times by you highscorers, and I find it kind of funny. On the one hand, you're campaigning vehemently to not change anything at all with the physics, glitches etc. (something, as I mentioned previously, I support) and yet at the same time you're saying we must radically alter the level editor. Don't you find any contradiction in those views?

I never said radically, I just think it needs work I will describe further on. Changes to NED will not ruin any existing maps. Changes to the physics would ruin all existing runs and make it harder for current highscores to produce the same quality runs if they have to learn a new system. And no, I don't see any contradiction in these views since they are my own and I like the current physics engine, but I do not like NED. So these views are not contradictory they are perfectly congruent with my thoughts on the matter.

As a mapper for some time now, I have grown more than accustomed to the quirks of NED.It looks totally foreign and unworkable at first, but as you start to adjust to it's keyboard-based style, you start to see its brilliance. When you're able to put down objects without the instructions, you realize just how great this thing really is. It encourages you to map by your whim, freely switching out seekers and lasers with the touch of a button. I love being able to do that. There are improvements that could be made (Object copier), but they are minor tweaks, nothing that could fall under the category of "Redesign". v1.5 would need to have some pretty awesome new features to convince me to use a new level editor.

I suppose our ideas of "Redesign" is not the same, but I am not suggesting getting rid of the hot key system. I would however like to see the instruction screens moved outside of the frame when the game is displayed in maximize/full screen, instead of just floating around. I would like a better way to go from editor to playing instead of having to hit "home" "`" every time. I would like a redesign of the main screen in NED with simpler functions especially having to do with FBF. I don't like having to push "1" every time I play. I would also like to see save states and rerecording, but that is for the suggestions thread. I would like an object mover. I would also like to see all of the tiles and objects have buttons for a mouse based NED too, along side the hotkey NED.

I have many other suggestions, but this is just turning in to a "what TRO wants for v1.5 post" so I will end it there, but I think that will all of these additions/ changes it is fair to call it a redesign.

[Nexx]

I'm similar to atob - change it! More specifically, my criteria for whether or not something needs fixing would be whether it's a gain-of-function (gof) or loss-of-function (lof) glitch.

gain-of-function glitches add a new ability that wasn't supposed to be there, like corner jumps, bounceblock jumps, etc. These gain-of-functions have provided de facto "advanced techniques" that add depth to the game, IMO (and to mapping for the game).

loss-of-function glitches are where some ability that you are supposed to have is lost in some situation, so this includes the obvious jumps off of one-ways/trapdoors and reverse jump stuttering, but also includes one-way glitches and seeker drones. These glitches are unintended exceptions to the rule, and can make it difficult to map and/or play properly. It is true that some interesting things have popped up over the years utilizing these glitches to great effect, but I am with atob in that I would prefer the things work as expected when you need them. IMO the only item in this category for which a case can be made is one-way glitches, because they're use has developed so much. Still, I dunno. Tough call.

The chaingun drone glitch doesn't fit very well into this scheme, IMO. A spattering of bullets hurled at you shouldn't necessarily kill you every time, but I would personally prefer more consistency with chaingun drones. It has always annoyed me that the best scores on chaingun levels can only be gotten by getting lucky as hell in the chaingun section(s).

[im_bad_at_n]

Hmm.. I thought about it and will vote No.

The stuff in the game is fine as is. For version 1.5 there should be additions to the game instead, but that has been so widely discussed that I am not going to mention any of them.

[EddyMataGallos]

I think that losing all highscores is a bad idea.
I also think that having two diferent leaderboards (1.4 and 1.5) wouldnt have success, or maybe, i dont know, but im sure that i'll last much more time to get as competitive as the original one.
I think that the best idea is not changing that thing that makes the old highscores crash.
But if they must crash, of course, create something "classical mode", or n1.4 integration leaderboards, or something like that.
Anyway, i know a lot of people who wont be able to highscore again 500 levels.

The only thing that is different this time around is the time between versions. Between v1.3 and v1.4 was incredibly short in comparison to now - maybe a year versus five years. They've reset the highscore boards every new release, and they should certainly do so again. Otherwise, the leaderboards stagnate and there's no reason to highscore the current 500 levels again. It'd be nice to have a leaderboard for current highscores, and then reset like they usually do.

The other option (Taking a page out of Gunbound's book) - Seasons. Highscoring seasons. Lasting weeks, months, maybe a year. Something to keep in mind.

Oh, i didnt know that the highscores were reseted every time a new version was released, i wasnt here :)
But, if we reset the highscore leaderboards, we'll have to highscore the levels again cuz the old demos arent going to be compatible with n.1.5, or not?
Also, as you have said, this leaderboards have been much more played, and it would be a pity to lose a lot of highscores of highscorers that wont come here again, i.e. Mr_Lim, LAT, trib4l, j_f,... etc (well, we wont lose them, but technicaly if we want to play in n1.5 we'll have to score in the new leaderboards and probably the next years the old leaderboards will be left of highscoring).
I hope you can understand me, because im not a very good english-speaker :)

[lord_day]

It would be really nice if any changes to NED don't require map makers to change how they map. (Does that make sense?) NED is so fluid, and I can do almost anything in it at high speed. Things that would work well as changes could be features that include copy and paste for objects in the same way we have for tiles. Also, perhaps 'invert tiles in selected area' function would be useful. Stuff along those lines.

Anyway, I guess the main point of my post is that NED is so fluid, it means that you can just pour out maps with no thought. I really love that and hope it doesn't change!

[raigan]

In terms of Ned, we will always keep the "classic" core functionality for editing tiles because it _is_ extremely fast once you learn it and we can't really think of a better way to do it that would be as productive/fast.

Mostly we just want to make it easier to learn, and modernize the higher-level stuff. Basically everything is all hotkeys right now, which is fine once you've learnt them but having some other easier option -- marking menus or something -- available to begin with might be a good idea. They idea is just that there will be more than "just hotkeys" as an input method.

Object creation could possibly be improved too. One thing we really like in N+ XBLA is that it draws out the path that drones will move along, so that you don't need to mentally trace their movement, it's displayed onscreen.

Edit-in-place for objects is also needed, so that if you want to e.g move an object to the right or rotate it 90deg, you don't need to delete+recreate it, you can just modify the existing object. That sort of thing is just common-sense and the current system is archaic and basically due to our lack of experience and time :)

Or for example: there's no reason that capslock needs to be used to toggle between realtime and frame-by-frame. It could be a button, or an assignable key.. and there should be some onscreen indicator to show you the current state! There are many little things like that definitely make Ned hard to first pick up, that don't need to be that way and that could be greatly improved.

The "batch" tile editing stuff needs a lot of work too, i.e selecting tiles to copy/paste/rotate/invert/etc..

And of course, full undo/redo.

[Meta Ing]

Unfortunately, v1.5 will almost certainly break all existing replays; this is an inevitability if we're going to fix e.g the collision glitches.

/Meta wonders if M&R have seen the numerous manually built demos created by moh the Maldivian wonder. Although these runs are not on the boards, they are probably another major reason so many people don't want to see the physics or glitches changed or removed...

Speaking of which, I was wondering... do you consider corner jumping a glitch? Some people do, and some people (like me) don't -- I just don't see how the act of jumping off the corner of a tile could be considered one.

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Oh, almost forgot. I don't know if this would be considered a small change, but do you think you could make it possible to watch replays after pressing k (or whatever your suicide button is)? The thing I considered is that you might not've been able to code the ninja spontaneously dying into the demo code (although when demo data is converted to hex - 8, 9, A and B are available, so I would think at least one of those could be used for it.)

[EddyMataGallos]

In terms of Ned, we will always keep the "classic" core functionality for editing tiles because it _is_ extremely fast once you learn it and we can't really think of a better way to do it that would be as productive/fast.

Mostly we just want to make it easier to learn, and modernize the higher-level stuff. Basically everything is all hotkeys right now, which is fine once you've learnt them but having some other easier option -- marking menus or something -- available to begin with might be a good idea. They idea is just that there will be more than "just hotkeys" as an input method.

Object creation could possibly be improved too. One thing we really like in N+ XBLA is that it draws out the path that drones will move along, so that you don't need to mentally trace their movement, it's displayed onscreen.

Edit-in-place for objects is also needed, so that if you want to e.g move an object to the right or rotate it 90deg, you don't need to delete+recreate it, you can just modify the existing object. That sort of thing is just common-sense and the current system is archaic and basically due to our lack of experience and time :)

Or for example: there's no reason that capslock needs to be used to toggle between realtime and frame-by-frame. It could be a button, or an assignable key.. and there should be some onscreen indicator to show you the current state! There are many little things like that definitely make Ned hard to first pick up, that don't need to be that way and that could be greatly improved.

The "batch" tile editing stuff needs a lot of work too, i.e selecting tiles to copy/paste/rotate/invert/etc..

And of course, full undo/redo.

Wow, you guys have a lot of good ideas! I know N 1.5 will be awesome!

[Kablizzy]

That's a major thing. Especially considering the time differences between releases is so great. This large gap has given highscorers and speedrunners a very large amount of time to not only make great runs and take many 0ths (some of which are EXTREMELY difficult to replicate), but learn new tricks and find new innovations for several levels previously thought unimprovable. To just completely erase 5+ years of work would kind of suck.*

And that's a reason to say, "All you new people, don't bother. We've already got highscores, thanks."?

Also, if they fix some of the physics, all highscores break anyway.