Metanet 0ths Thread

[EddyMataGallos]

I agree with Eddy, its not about the difficulty of the map itself, its just that there are too many user levels, so the competition is too spread out.

For example I just took that Remedy level in a few attempts, but if that exact same level was a Metanet level, my run probably wouldn't even be on the scoreboard, because people would spend hours and hours perfecting it.

That's why I like competitions like ska's bounty hunter and the recent soast one, because it brings people to compete on a smaller selection of levels, and I enjoy playing the numa levels but they just aren't competitive.

Yep agreed with everything, that level in v1.4 Metanet would have 4-5 frames diff between 0th and 19th max. Retaken btw :P

[james_S]

oh a reply, Hi TRO, nice to see that chimney map -still curious about how that would translate to Nv2 though... Current record there seems to be on the old chimney map: lol!! be fast!! at 5339. Golfkid you didnt turn up :( ? But yea the appeal of those chimneys has been lost for me somewhat as it is a separate skill to be able to press the two buttons in a left right left right sequence and its one that doesnt translate to the game like you guys said. I guess there isnt an nreality map on which someone could make a few presses with the other hand in time -or userlevels on numa maps?

reg Nv2 userlevels, well it depends on how you play them, you can just start playing the newest lame maps, or you can find some of the bigger maps and be put off by how cruelly tentative, flawed or limited they are (by limited i mean, i agree with what u say about good metanet maps being great for making innovations while not being too complex) or you could be put off by the popular section having too many maps with uninteresting speedruns, or you can play maps back to back with no sense of occasion at all (which I think would get u that decrease in satisfaction Eddy is talking about) and that would be your fault. (lol)
reg. userlevels getting forgotten, well quite a lot of maps stay put in the popular section and we all know who the cool authors are, so we can look them up.

PS. Yea for competition dont come on userlevels (altho intermediate players wont really mix with u guys anyway). But I completed all 100something N1.4 levels back then and only used to remember a handful as really awesome places to run on, whereas now I remember so much more from n2 userlevels -as the maps are so different. -I know the same goes for numa maps, but the smaller unique maps on nv2 userlevels are pretty memorable and the ''feed'' is so lively

[james_S]

Eddy 'retaken' hehehe

[EddyMataGallos]

or you can play maps back to back with no sense of occasion at all (which I think would get u that decrease in satisfaction Eddy is talking about) and that would be your fault. (lol)

Thats not the fact, the fact is that with very little effort you already get top scores, thats what I mean. The fact that I get no satisfaction is not because I don't put enough effort on the levels, but because theres no need to put that effort. It usually takes a couple minutes to take a 0th that, sadly, wont be taken again unless some other v1.4 player like dan/swip/jp/etc plays it, thats what I call temporal fun (I enjoy a couple minutes then that level is over). So its not that Im not putting enough effort, its just why would I put that effort at all? The thing with v1.4 Metanet levels is that you DO need that effort and time to take the 0ths, and hence satisfaction follows it.

Then we have the fact that levels dissapear within a few hours. There are a few on the popular page I agree, I'm not quite familiar with it so Im not sure how that page works, but it doesn't really matter as it doesn't avoid the fact that levels still dissapear, the popular page will just keep a handful of them there for a little more. There's just no way to keep thousands and thousands of maps in continuous competition, regardless any popular feature you decide to implement.

PS. Yea for competition dont come on userlevels (altho intermediate players wont really mix with u guys anyway). But I completed all 100something N1.4 levels back then and only used to remember a handful as really awesome places to run on, whereas now I remember so much more from n2 userlevels -as the maps are so different. -I know the same goes for numa maps, but the smaller unique maps on nv2 userlevels are pretty memorable and the ''feed'' is so lively

I agree, Metanet levels aren't as fun until you start highscoring/speedrunning them. For just playing, you can get better times by playing userlevels as they are more varied. But if its for competing (highscoring/speedruning) then I prefer Metanet levels, they feel much better place to compete for me (specially v1.4 ones). So yeah it basically depends on what you want to do and how you want to approach the game. There's no need to keep this long discussion we are having here hehe, we know it kinda depends on one's taste, not everybody is gonna think alike.

[panstromek]

It would be good if we could make more sets (something like dlc?) because there are lot of maps that deserves highscoring more than original ones. I realized that I feel absolutely opposite thing than you. I just can't enjoy playing bad levels only because of competition. That's the reason why I propably never become normal highscorer. Lot of Metanet levels are truly boring for me and I think a lot of them is really bad or just not enough good. But if the set was full of the best NUMA maps, I would propably play it a lot. Then I must say I really enjoy Nreality levels (I'm back on my old computer so I play them a lot these days).
Last post there, I swear :)

[TheRealOne]

TRO really... It's one thing to change the title, and another to DELETE OUR DUNG BEETLES!

I have no idea what you are talking about... >.>

[EddyMataGallos]

It would be good if we could make more sets (something like dlc?) because there are lot of maps that deserves highscoring more than original ones. I realized that I feel absolutely opposite thing than you. I just can't enjoy playing bad levels only because of competition. That's the reason why I propably never become normal highscorer. Lot of Metanet levels are truly boring for me and I think a lot of them is really bad or just not enough good. But if the set was full of the best NUMA maps, I would propably play it a lot. Then I must say I really enjoy Nreality levels (I'm back on my old computer so I play them a lot these days).
Last post there, I swear :)

Hehe yeah, I agree there are plenty of levels that deserve being highscored. But as for what you mentioned of "can't enjoy playing bad levels", thats the thing, I think playing and highscoring is different, and there are levels where just playing won't be enjoyable but highscoring will be. Some levels might seem boring to be beaten/played, but will be enjoyable to highscore because you will focus on squeezing every possibility out of the map.

That also happens the other direction, there are maps that can be fun to play, but really it wouldn't be interesting at all to highscore for several reasons. However if you are talking about Metanet v2.0 levels, I agree a lot of them are very boring indeed! v1.4 are much better for me. Level selection is something really hard though, because of the patent diversity of opinions.

[james_S]

That's why I like competitions like ska's bounty hunter and the recent soast one, because it brings people to compete on a smaller selection of levels, and I enjoy playing the numa levels but they just aren't competitive.

How do I find those?? at least to watch some runs (I've been on ska's numa page)

[EddyMataGallos]

That's why I like competitions like ska's bounty hunter and the recent soast one, because it brings people to compete on a smaller selection of levels, and I enjoy playing the numa levels but they just aren't competitive.

How do I find those?? at least to watch some runs (I've been on ska's numa page)

Those contests are held on the forums:
SOAST: http://forum.droni.es/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9860
Bounty Hunters: http://forum.droni.es/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9403

[nadroj347]

Took 45-0 with an innov - this is the first level i ever highscored so i felt i should take 0th. (i weirdly have a strong sentimental bond with this level :P - has this happened to anyone else?)

Those contests are held on the forums:
SOAST: http://forum.droni.es/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9860
Bounty Hunters: http://forum.droni.es/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9403

Are there any upcoming contests? I'd like to join if there is.

It would be good if we could make more sets (something like dlc?)

I think this would be a good idea - make a set of quality NUMA maps for highscoring - I know map-packs are created by map makers sometimes, couldn't a pack be created with maps specific for highscoring?

Also - i agree with Eddy - I find huge amounts of satisfaction highscoring Metanet levels - although if i can't be bothered applying my concentration and effort onto a single level - playing NUMA maps is a good way to relax (although many can be challenging to highscore on).

[james_S]

I've searched for SOAST myself then, but I didnt see a map pack (i was assuming its held on a bunch of levels made by SKA nvm nvm nvm nvm nvm). So that made me think, why dont we get something like the top 15 popular mappers on NUMA maps to make a few maps each (within a time frame) for this purpose (could be remake maps, just not existing maps). So it'll be like a numa competition, so you guys would have something else as well as the apparently full of potential Nv2 metanet maps ?

yep like nadroj347 said :)

[vankusss]

Those contests are held on the forums:
SOAST: http://forum.droni.es/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9860
Bounty Hunters: http://forum.droni.es/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9403

Are there any upcoming contests? I'd like to join if there is.

You might also want to take a look at
BLUR - already had 4 runs, last of them organized by me - http://forum.droni.es/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=6380
ROPP - contest format designed by me - http://forum.droni.es/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8840 , kind of died after 2 rounds, because well, there is noone to play

[ska]

woah nadroj347! sick run on 45-0!

Thanks btw for bringing up bounty hunters. It has motivated me start a new contest which I initially thought of doing years ago.

[macrohenry]

Improved my 08-3 run a bit. :)

[999_Springs]

It would be good if we could make more sets (something like dlc?) because there are lot of maps that deserves highscoring more than original ones. I realized that I feel absolutely opposite thing than you. I just can't enjoy playing bad levels only because of competition. That's the reason why I propably never become normal highscorer. Lot of Metanet levels are truly boring for me and I think a lot of them is really bad or just not enough good. But if the set was full of the best NUMA maps, I would propably play it a lot. Then I must say I really enjoy Nreality levels (I'm back on my old computer so I play them a lot these days).
Last post there, I swear :)

yeah I know what you mean. M&R tried to point out earlier here that in v2 they wanted to make userlevels the focus of highscoring, which is fine for novice/intermediate level players, but top-level players want something more concrete and userlevels are just too fleeting. In particular there is no equivalent of n.infunity.com numa scoreboards for v2.

M&R said they were considering having some set of about 500 maps made by users that top players could highscore on, since as they said, their maps aren't well-suited to that. So far we have the two secret columns, but I feel that isn't enough. I really want to see something done about that, but M&R are really slow with everything. But rest assured that they're considering it.

NReality had the legacy pack and blue_tetris columns, which were amazing, and I had a lot of fun playing those levels in 2007-12 before eventually getting bored. They're also easier to score on.

[vankusss]

panstromek, you enjoyed NReality levels? O.o

999, you'd think adding a bunch of levels to a game being developed for years would be the easiest part. Nope.
I'm tired of walking around the hot sausage, so I'll just say what I think: v2.0 is crap. Renamed NReality with new levels would be around 4x better.

[_danielr_]

you enjoyed NReality levels? O.o

What's wrong with Nreality levels...?

[ska]

I'm tired of walking around the hot sausage, so I'll just say what I think: v2.0 is crap. Renamed NReality with new levels would be around 4x better.

Because I had a part in the compilation of the userlevels I can't help but be at least a little bit biased, however, I do feel the game had a "rushed" feeling about it (I know, how ironic that 8 years of development and it seems rushed) but I wouldn't call it crap. There are certainly flaws, some nuanced, some pronounced, but I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy the difference in physics (when it's not lagging). I feel like if we played 2.0 for 8 years, then played 1.4, we'd all be like, "OMG the frame rate is so slow and there's so many bugs!" They have known for several months now about the highscore board layout being cumbersome (amongst other things including NUMA/userlevel integration) but nothing has been done. I can only assume their time has been focused on getting N++ released or at least that is what I tell myself so I can sleep at night.

LT;DR: 2.0 is flawed, but not unfixable/crap.

[vankusss]

Hello

Just because something is fixable doesn't mean it isn't bad. I never had any problems with the framerate of 1.4 so dunno about that. You enjoy the new physics? The map layout is something you can code in a DAY.

[panstromek]

You, as highscorers, are too much adapted to 1.4 so you don't see problems. But it is as ska said.

I feel like if we played 2.0 for 8 years, then played 1.4, we'd all be like, "OMG the frame rate is so slow and there's so many bugs!"

I've played 1.4 first for long time and than v2.0 for long time. Now, with new computer broken I play Nreality and I see bunch of problems. For example gameplay of 1.4 veeeeery much depends on system performance. All actions has that FUCKING delay which makes it incredibly frustrating to play. And there is also biiiig bunch of really annoying bugs and it is laggy as hell sometimes.

I'm not talking about full application or levels but gameplay is much much much better and more comfortable in v2.0 (but not on older systems where it lags. Propably just on W7). Only thing what I miss are CJ's (and all similar tricks of course) like everyone.

And as you criticize v2.0 levels, look at v1.4. Lot of that levels are total boring crap, like in v2.0.

[vankusss]

I've played 1.4 first for long time and than v2.0 for long time. Now, with new computer broken I play Nreality and I see bunch of problems. For example gameplay of 1.4 veeeeery much depends on system performance. All actions has that FUCKING delay which makes it incredibly frustrating to play. And there is also biiiig bunch of really annoying bugs and it is laggy as hell sometimes.

I'm not talking about full application or levels but gameplay is much much much better and more comfortable in v2.0 (but not on older systems where it lags. Propably just on W7). Only thing what I miss are CJ's (and all similar tricks of course) like everyone.

And as you criticize v2.0 levels, look at v1.4. Lot of that levels are total boring crap, like in v2.0.

I have a 6 years old laptop and n runs just fine on it. I'm not sure what kind of computer you have to make N lag. I'm not talking about maps with 100 rocket launchers, though.
Actions have delay? Never noticed. I think that is specific to you (or windows 7). On XP everything is ok. Ask raif to help you out with running NReality on win7.
What annoying bugs?
I get it that the gameplay is more comfortable in 2.0, but also more flat. You have so much less things to consider/are able to do.
1.4 levels are the best! :D I'm probably biased, though, I love them.

[nadroj347]

so you guys would have something else as well as the apparently full of potential Nv2 metanet maps ?

I meant the Nv1.4 maps (which you should totally play - get nreality here http://n.infunity.com/ if you haven't already), because honestly, the Nv2 maps are mostly uninteresting and simple with most having a set route to complete the level :/.

Thanks btw for bringing up bounty hunters. It has motivated me start a new contest which I initially thought of doing years ago.

Awesome!!!

And as you criticize v2.0 levels, look at v1.4. Lot of that levels are total boring crap, like in v2.0.

I honestly have never had lag for 1.4 (use Windows XP - still do) - so i've never had any glitches/problems - unless you're talking about bugs like bounce block tricks or one-ways which i feel are really cool. It's true that some 1.4 levels are simple - but they are few in comparison with the number in 2.0 (that said - some 2.0 levels are really quite interesting)

I can only assume their time has been focused on getting N++ released or at least that is what I tell myself so I can sleep at night.

I don't think there is any point expecting M&R to do anything soon. They clearly are unable to dedicate enough time on N as we would like them to - and we shouldn't expect any more from them, but appreciate what they are able to do. Clearly the highscore board for Nv2 could be better - but we know that will not be fixed anytime soon - and we can deal with that. HOWEVER - the maps are clearly disappointing for the highscorers - What if - and i don't know if this is possible - or who is able to do it - is it possible to create an NReality for 2.0 as was done for 1.4? This would mean plenty of cool features would be added to 2.0 such as speedrunning and underclock, PLUS 500 MORE levels that WE (not M&R) could choose that are actually interesting and fun to highscore on.

[EddyMataGallos]

You, as highscorers, are too much adapted to 1.4 so you don't see problems. But it is as ska said.

I feel like if we played 2.0 for 8 years, then played 1.4, we'd all be like, "OMG the frame rate is so slow and there's so many bugs!"

I've played 1.4 first for long time and than v2.0 for long time. Now, with new computer broken I play Nreality and I see bunch of problems. For example gameplay of 1.4 veeeeery much depends on system performance. All actions has that FUCKING delay which makes it incredibly frustrating to play. And there is also biiiig bunch of really annoying bugs and it is laggy as hell sometimes.

I'm not talking about full application or levels but gameplay is much much much better and more comfortable in v2.0 (but not on older systems where it lags. Propably just on W7). Only thing what I miss are CJ's (and all similar tricks of course) like everyone.

And as you criticize v2.0 levels, look at v1.4. Lot of that levels are total boring crap, like in v2.0.

"Lag": N v1.4 doesn't lag in WinXP so it doesn't depend on your performance, its just not well optimized for modern OS's. I understand this can bother you though. If on the other hand you mean the slower framerate then of course thats just a matter of opinions, we are both clearly biased so I'll settle this point.

"Bugs": They all ROCK, consider the fact you can master "bugs" makes for a much wider range of things you can do on runs, the possibilities are much bigger and it makes it possible to innov runs much more often; and can also distinguish better the players based on their experience. It makes levels more fun to play. The other thing that makes them more fun is their better design.

If new players find bugs annoying is because they just havent got used to them. Just wait a couple years until the highscore boards are boringly homogeneous and lets see if you all think the same. We have a lost a lot of possiblities thats what we can see that new players can't.

"Gameplay": Also the thing with the old gameplay is that it seems more "solid" to me, in N v2.0 its like hes floating all around. Its fun because its new and all that, so it provides novel stuff, but with the time its just gonna lose its interest which doesn't happen to N v1.4 until you have either done everything or don't have any more time because of real life. And having done everything is impossible. Although this might not happen to mappers or casual players, just to highscorers.

"Levels": If you are talking about userlevels in that last sentence then I don't know, that depends on the author of course. But if you are talking about the core levels, then DUDE, how can you even compare v2.0 core levels with v1.4 ones? Thats just... theres no way those are comparable. Its like comparing a Playskool car with a Mercedes Benz. Don't get me wrong, there might be exceptions of course you can't make 500 perfect levels, but you must consider the general idea, the general aspect, the majority. Haven't you noticed the best v2.0 levels are the v1.4 recycled ones?

There's a mistake I found:

and then v2.0 for long time

Thats the problem, there's no way 4 months can be considered "long time".

[panstromek]

"Lag": N v1.4 doesn't lag in WinXP so it doesn't depend on your performance, its just not well optimized for modern OS's. I understand this can bother you though. If on the other hand you mean the slower framerate then of course thats just a matter of opinions, we are both clearly biased so I'll settle this point.

Example: I recommended 1.4 to two of my roommates few years ago. And the gameplay was totally different on their computers (btw. better on HP than ASUS with better technical parameters). Reaction time was absolutely different. I also played N on bunch of computers through time and everytime was performance different. I play on winXP now and it seems less problematic but still... There's just always some uncertainty when playing. You must always think about some unexpectable action. Always "Why it is not jumping when I'm pressing the button!?!?!" This situation is everyday meal in v1.4. No problem in v2.0.

Actions have delay? Never noticed.

That's what I'm talking about. You're adapted on it so you subconsciously know that you must do every action sooner.

Bugs": They all ROCK, consider the fact you can master "bugs" makes for a much wider range of things you can do on runs, the possibilities are much bigger and it makes it possible to innov runs much more often;

I don't mean these bugs. I mean those which makes playing so frustrating. Bug that make playing 88-1 so hard bacause ninja do weird things instead of jumping for no reason. Or that you must "hold" oneway platform if you want jump on it like on wall. Or when you fall through bb for no reason. Especially the first one I mentioned ruins the feel of many maps.

"Gameplay": Also the thing with the old gameplay is that it seems more "solid" to me, in N v2.0 its like hes floating all around.

Thats propably very subjective. I feel that ninja in v2.0 is more stable or something like that, in v1.4 more "elastic". :)

"Levels": If you are talking about userlevels in that last sentence then I don't know, that depends on the author of course. But if you are talking about the core levels, then DUDE, how can you even compare v2.0 core levels with v1.4 ones? Thats just... theres no way those are comparable. Its like comparing a Playskool car with a Mercedes Benz. Don't get me wrong, there might be exceptions of course you can't make 500 perfect levels, but you must consider the general idea, the general aspect, the majority. Haven't you noticed the best v2.0 levels are the v1.4 recycled ones?

OK I don't want to compare them. I don't think about core v2.0 levels as proper 100% levels. It is just something like training and the real game starts in userlevels (but you must choose good ones). And I think it is good, more friendly for beginners. v1.4 user levels are perfect, I think I haven't seen truly bad level on NUMA as I play every day the new ones.
About v1.4... Ok, I randomly clicked on few episodes to choose some examples and found a lot of very good levels and spent hour on playing them :) so I partly take this back. I forgot the good times :). I just don't think that lot of them is good enough. It is in important details. Gold placing, bad tiles, etc. Mapping is on much higher level now, so in old levels you see things what no mapper would use these days.

there's no way 4 months can be considered "long time".

Ok but that just proves my point.
btw. 4 months, few hours everyday. I think I have played the most of existing normally playable v2.0 levels. I think it was a lot more valuable spent time and gave me a lot more than all that years in v1.4. It feels like almost year I still can'T believe it is just 4 months :)

So I play both, that's only way for me.

[ska]

is it possible to create an NReality for 2.0 as was done for 1.4? This would mean plenty of cool features would be added to 2.0 such as speedrunning and underclock, PLUS 500 MORE levels that WE (not M&R) could choose that are actually interesting and fun to highscore on.

Possibly, but honestly, I don't think it's worth Unreality's time or effort. There are 100 new userlevels in game plus an infinite amount of 2.0 userlevels which can be scored without ever leaving the 2.0 window.